a model for cutting ability

db said:
.. your quoteing 2 different paragraphs.

Yes, the second paragraph defines the terms used in the first, which is common in exposition, and makes it clear he is speaking of the material above the edge, not the edge itself which you would never hollow grind. This is also obvious from the fact that he notes edge thickening with sharpening, and that the equipment he sells sharpens at obtuse angles, far above relief bevels.

None of that changes the fact JJ was promoting thin edges and that they cut better and last longer over 30 years ago and before the internet.

As I repeat again, that was never the point in contention. The above is not about relief bevels as per Juranitch, it is about adjusting the edge angle itself and noting that with a more acute edge angle there is an increase in both the initial cutting ability and edge lifetime. This is at first proposal odd because you would expect the more acute edge to both wear/fracture/deform much easier and thus the cutting performance should decrease more rapidly.

The hypothesis for why this was so was not so trivial a point was proposed by Swaim who included a basic geometrical model to account for why a more acute edge could last longer. If you look at the numerical results in detail it should be obvious that there is a different behavior to the graphs. The more acute edges have higher power coefficients but lower scaling factors. The effect of a relief grind is a very different matter because it effects mainly the wedging forces on the blade so you would not expect it to be able to effect the power factor.

It is of course very true that the idea that thinning the cross section increases the cutting ability is far more dated than rec.knives as I noted in the above. I have seen references to this with design of bronze/copper blades and I assume it goes back to the first stone tools. What Swaim did was important in several respects because he studied the effects in specific detail and provided that detail to the public in a time and in a place where much of the information was in opposition.

Lee's perspective on multi-beveling is similar to Juranitch but is more comprehensive and more clear as to what is being discussed. He doesn't reference where his ideas on multi-beveling come from, outside of his comments on friction, but I doubt he would claim to have invented the whole of it.

-Cliff
 
"
Cliff says..
"

None of that changes the fact JJ was promoting thin edges and that they cut better and last longer over 30 years ago and before the internet.

As I repeat again, that was never the point in contention.

And again that is what I'm saying. Not only did JJ promote relief grinds but also thinner edges. That is why I said you were only half correct. I think you argue just to argue.
 
JJ's book pulls the term "relief" out of the air without explanation, IIRC. It made me very confused for a while. His definitions of primary and secondary bevel are opposite of what people here on BFC mean, which further confused me... Or maybe it was just me.

He did make some good points, but seems to rely on anecdotal evidence far too much.
 
SODAK I agree. I don't even agree with alot of what he writes. That doesn't discount what I do agree with of his though. And really 30 years ago there wasn't as much easily found info as there is today.
 
I’ve been saying the same thing as your own post.
From the post http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3248170&postcount=19
“

Cliff posted ..

J.J of Razor Edge built a company on his sharpening knowledge/ability.
All suggest primary edge angles far under 20 degrees per side. The difference in cutting ability, edge retention and ease of sharpening is tremendous with
the use of a proper relief / micro bevel.

-Cliff

Is this horse dead yet?
 
I'm lost, both edge thickness and angle are being discussed at once. If you hollow the relief grind, the edge will be thinner because you have less metal to begin with before even sharpening. On Phil wilson's site he even says his knives almost cut before he sharpens them because of how thin he goes with the flat grind. Then you sharpen at the desired angle, which could be 'obtuse', especially if 180 is already almost cutting.
 
sodak said:
... seems to rely on anecdotal evidence far too much.

The problem isn't this as much as he is very selective in which evidence to use because he is basically selling a viewpoint. You can use groups like he did in scientific research but you have to take a lot of care not to get biased data. If you give for example a bunch of meat workers blades which you claim are "superior" but are in fact the exact same knives they have always used, then some will indeed report they are superior because they are told it and others will report they are inferior because some people really don't like to be told the way they sharpen blades is incorrect. Thus the actual ability of the person collecting the data to interact with the group can have a large effect if you are not careful. Send in a very young and attractive woman and watch what happens to the responses from a largely single and male focus group on if the method she used helped them or not. The problem is that a lot of the work is done without a basic knowledge of statistics and thus the data gets heavily biased.

db said:
Not only did JJ promote relief grinds but also thinner edges.

Again, the thickness of the edge wasn't the critical issue being discussed in the above which is why Swaim's work was critically relevant and Juranitch's was not.

me said:
All suggest primary edge angles far under 20 degrees per side.

Note the bold part. As I noted it was a relief issue, this is a different influence.

hardheart said:
I'm lost, both edge thickness and angle are being discussed at once.

To clearify, recently on Swordforums there was a debate over Landes work because Landes promotes very acute edge angles and based on this criteria he critizes some steels for having an inability to hold those angles because they will fracture due to a coarse carbide structure. There was some contention over the significance because the angles Landes quotes for his type I steels (AEB-L) and such are very acute, much more than the normal 20-30 degrees that people use on knives. The debate eventually settled on the issue that even if such knives would have higher cutting ability if you did sharpen an edge at such an acute angle then the edge retention would be low. So it is more of a show edge, shave a few arm hairs, than an actual working edge profile.

From first inspection this seems reasonable because a more acute edge angle, again we are talking about the part which does the cutting here, not the part which is behind it, should be easier to wear, fracture and deform. Swaim however countered this arguement on rec.knives with the proposal with two contentions. First off all, if the angle is lower it actually takes more steel to be removed to get to a given thickness and second the forces on an edge are lower due to the higher cutting ability as edge angles are reduced. Thus he proposed it isn't necessarily true that if you grind an edge at 15 degrees that the cutting ability will decrease quickly below the knife sharpened at 20 degrees. Again, there is no mention of relief grinds, this is an issue of the angle at the edge itself. Now I had much data collected which supports Swaims hypothesis but there are always people who as Cashen is fond of noting :

"People who have made up their minds and don't want to be confused by the facts are a danger to the whole society."- Thomas Sowell, Apr 4, 2006"

I also realized that few people would publically critize Buck's CATRA data, especially when they use the exact same data for their own personal promotions Which is why I used Bucks data to show Swaim's hypothesis is dramatically true. Even a slight change in angle from 20 to 14.5 allows 420HC to outperform BG-42. Note again the focus on the edge angle and not the relief. If you remove material behind the edge then this has a very different effect on the shape of the curve. Even under heavy cutting like double layered 1/4" ridged cardboard the damage is constrainted to a very small amount of metal, about 20-40 microns, it depends on the angle but that is the general ball park. The fact that this is so small almost is also very important because it means you can stabilize an edge with a very obtuse angle but have an overall still high level of cutting ability if you keep it at the bare minimum. gud4u, sodak and thom have all noted recently examples of this in detail. kel_aa has also noted that if you take the angle too high then the cutting abilty will still suffer.

Now I have come to realize recently that there is yet another issue in that a relief grind can strengthen the edge directly due to its effect on the localized force on the edge. I think the U2/Horn comparison shows this effect because that shows just sharpness and not cutting ability and a relief grind doesn't effect the sharpness. This is another issue which Swaim clearified as he separated cutting ability vs sharpness. But I need more data before I would be sure. It is otherwise hard to explain though how SGPS can significantly outlast ZDP-189 on slicing aggression on cardboard when ZDP-189 easily outlasts S30V on the same work.

If you hollow the relief grind, the edge will be thinner because you have less metal to begin with before even sharpening.

Juranitch at times doesn't clearify the terms exactly and there is a lot of confusion which results. At times he talked about actually hollow grinding a flat ground blade but the equipment he sells is designed to apply a flat relief grind at about 10 degrees with the coarse stone and then sharpen at 20 with the finishing stone using the clamp. His steels are also set at very obtuse angles. Thus he leaves an edge which is very obtuse but has a high relief. Buck's approach brought down the very edge angle which is where Swaim's hypothesis is relevant. You will get two very different looking blunting curves if you take those approaches. Juranitch's work is not critically relevant to the above because it shows that more acute edges do not have inferior cutting lifetimes not simply the effect of relief grinds. I intend to note the effect of that in a later post because I have data which shows the performance of knives with the same edge angle but with a different relief grinds.

On Phil wilson's site he even says his knives almost cut before he sharpens them because of how thin he goes with the flat grind.

He sharpens basically down to nothing, they are often well under 0.005" after they are sharpened, Boye does the same thing which was a strong influence on Wilson. You often can't even see the edge bevel on their knives. Some materials as I noted in the above are also not sensitive to the sharpness. I can cut the edge right off the U2 for example, grind it right into a stone so it has no sharpness and it still cuts hardwood far better than an optimally sharp Fulcrum.

-Cliff
 
hmm, I've cut my hands on machined edges of engine components-90 degree included angles, plus carrying around paper thin flashing.
 
hardheart said:
I've cut my hands on machined edges of engine components-90 degree included angles, plus carrying around paper thin flashing.

Yes, paper edges are an example of a very blunt media which can still cut flesh (on a draw) simply due to thinness and cabinet scrapers are very thick and obtuse (90 degres) and you would not want to run your fingers down them. Metal which has just been cut from snips and such is also highly deformed at the edge and thus is basically "sharpened" due to this deformation.

Note the above model doesn't just allow you to answer questions like "What has better edge retention; a 20 degree edge; a 15 degree edge or multi-bevel 10/25 degree edge." Once you have used the model extensively you can then correlate the angles to the parameters and thus predict behavior for any particular edge profile.

So for example if you have a BG-42 blade with a 10/15 degree bevel you can then calculate how you would need to grind 420HC to get the same edge retention. Just think about what that means. This raises an interesting perspective about evaluating steels.

Note that while BG-42 at 20 is well behind 420HC at 14.5, BG-42 at 14.5 is significantly ahead of 420HC at 14.5 if you look at long term cutting ability. This means there is going to be some angle inbetween 14.5 and 20 for which the blades will be equal and now the BG-42 has a more obtuse angle which has an advantage in high stress accidental impacts.

This means effectively that you can argue that characteristics like high wear resistance, if properly optomized in edge profile can actually increase durability. I would be very curious for example to see the profiles which would make 420HC and S90V similar and then see how these reacted to "abusive" cutting. This perspective might force a re-evaluation of determination of durability in steels.

-Cliff
 
Thanks very much for that model and analysis--intuitively, it makes a lot of sense to me.

A couple of questions, first addressing convex edge bevels:

1) Can you speak to the theory that a convex edge has a less pronounced shoulder at the top of the edge bevel than a flat edge bevel has, and that this smoother transition to the primary grind makes for lowered resistance and more efficient cutting action of a convex edge? and

2) Do you have anything addressing the strength of convex vs. flat edges?

And one more on edge finishing:

3) When applying a micro-bevel to a thin, flat edge, is the angle of the micro bevel also critical in terms of cutting efficiency? What are the factors at work there?

Thanks again,
Will
 
WILL YORK said:
Can you speak to the theory that a convex edge has a less pronounced shoulder at the top of the edge bevel than a flat edge bevel has, and that this smoother transition to the primary grind makes for lowered resistance and more efficient cutting action of a convex edge?

Consider the following edges :

1) 0.030" thick, v-ground at 20 degrees per side

2) 0.030" thick, convex ground with a 20 degree shoulder which sweeps down into a 30 degree per side bevel under 0.010" thick.

3) 0.025" thick, v-ground at 30 degrees per side

Note the convex bevel (2) can come from either increasing the apex angle of the bevel (1) or reducing the shoulder angle of bevel (3). Thus in general (very general) it has the exact opposite relationship in regards to cutting ability/durability vs those two bevels. The origional question is therefore undefined. Consider a square and a circle - which has the greatest area. This is a similar undefined question. However if I was to constrain the geometries with "and both have the same perimeter." then it has an answer.

Do you have anything addressing the strength of convex vs. flat edges?

We first need to constrain the two bevels. As an example how does a convex bevel compare to a flat ground bevel where both are ground to the minimum profile required to keep the very edge (microns) stable.

When applying a micro-bevel to a thin, flat edge, is the angle of the micro bevel also critical in terms of cutting efficiency? What are the factors at work there?

The very edge serves one purpose, because the contact area is very small it generates a very high pressure from a very low force. Since the very edge on a sharpened knife is about a micron in thickness at the point it makes contact with what is being cut this means it would reduce the force required to cut (compared to an unground blade) by about a factor of a thousand. It would at first seem the edge angle is not relevant because when optimally sharpened the contact area of an edge is the same for any angle. Ok it isn't exactly due to the fact that steels have a minimal edge stability due to carbide influences but that is a complication which isn't relevant here.

However most materials are somewhat elastic and do not just rupture as soon as the the edge exerts pressure upon them. They will essentially deform until the compressive force of the material under the edge exceeds the rupture pressure of the material itself. As the blade is pushing the material down it is not only pushing down the material right under the edge but it is also pushing down and to the side all the material which makes contact with the blade. As the edge angle grows more obtuse then this contact area increases for a given depth and thus the force that it takes to achieve a given rupture pressure increases. In short - the blade acts duller.

The opposite is true as well which is why when you sharpen to very acute angles it gets easier to achieve a high sharpness. It isn't that the actual edge if you look at it directly under magnification is actually thinner, it will still be about a micron. However it will drag much less material with it when it presses into a media and thus this directly reduces the force required to generate the required pressure on the material under the very edge to cause it to burst. There is also a further effect in that the more material which is pushed down the lower the localized strain on the material at the very edge which again means it can be deformed further before it will break. Just consider how distorted a material will be at the very edge under the influence of a lower vs higher angle because it has to basically wrap around the edge and a more acute angle has a more drastic change in shape. Now how much of an effect this makes, for a first pass you would just consider the wedging forces (because they are easy to calculate) and look at something like :

(edge angle ratio)*(depth ratio)

Where depth ratio is the width of the micro-bevel compared to the depth of the cut. Thus for example if you increased the edge angle from 10 to 20 as a micro which was 0.1 mm wide and the cut was 10 mm deep, you would expect the cutting ability to decrease by :

10/20*0.1/10*100%=0.5%

or effectively nothing. However if the cut depth was much smaller, say a mm then :

10/20*0.1/1*100%=5%

This assumes that the force is constant in height. For most materials it drops off and if you assume it drops off in a linear manner and is zero at the top of the cut depth then this will double the above calculations. You would also want to add to this the above increase that it has on the forces at the very edge itself which are not as easy to calculate but are generally not as significant as how the edge itself responds to use because it thickens rapidly and thus the area that it presents to the material being cut gets so large that it will start to dominate the forces. Note in the above CATRA graphs all that changed was the thickness of the very edge itself from start to finish.

Note the reason that the CATRA results improved for Buck was not that a flat ground bevel was superior to a convex bevel, that is an undefined generality. It was simply because they reduced the edge cross section and it was still above the durability limit. They could have gone further still and have seen better results. Their edges are not even close to the minimal ones required to cut soft media under low lateral loads.

-Cliff
 
Cliff--

I’m shaking my head, as usual, as I consider the extent to which you’ve gone to evolve our comprehension of the details of cutting geometry and function. Let me see if I can make a statement, based on my understanding of your statement above, that is consistent with both your explanation that the convex-vs-flat-edge question must be constrained, and with my understanding of what your model predicts:

If you have two blades that are identical except for their edge grinds, and :

1) the blade thickness at the top of each edge-bevel shoulder is the same; and

2) the straight-line distance from the top of each shoulder to the edge is the same ; and

3) the only difference is that one edge has a convex grind, meaning the actual surface distance from the shoulder to the edge is increased by having a rounded edge bevel rather than a straight (flat) one; then

a) the flat edge bevel will cut more efficiently than the convex bevel, because the thickness of the flat bevel behind the edge is narrower and therefore creates less drag pressure; and

b) since the shoulder of each edge bevel is above and behind the areas on the sides of the bevel which create drag in the material being cut, the effect of the “rounded” or “smoother” shoulder of the convex bevel will not reduce friction enough, over the sharp shoulder of the flat bevel, to compensate for the drag effect of the increased thickness of the convex bevel as compared with the flat bevel.

The practical application I was trying to evaluate boils down to this:

If I’m re-grinding an edge with a belt grinder at a given angle, and I have the option of either 1) pressing the side of the edge bevel into a somewhat slack belt to create a convex edge or 2) installing a platen behind the belt to create a flat edge bevel, which option should I use to create the most efficient cutting edge? I assume from your explanation that installing the platen to create the flat bevel would yield the more efficient cutting edge.

Thanks for any clarification you can make to my thought process on this.

Will
 
Heck of a good discussion... thanks! Now, having given my Buck 110 in 420HC to my daughter-in-law, do I get another or pick up a Cabella's 110 in S30V when we go through Fort Worth next month?
 
If I’m re-grinding an edge with a belt grinder at a given angle, and I have the option of either 1) pressing the side of the edge bevel into a somewhat slack belt to create a convex edge or 2) installing a platen behind the belt to create a flat edge bevel, which option should I use to create the most efficient cutting edge? I assume from your explanation that installing the platen to create the flat bevel would yield the more efficient cutting edge.

Assuming the edge would not fold with the flat profile then yes it would generally be more efficient. The presupposition is the critical part and where the discussion has to get a little complicated. The main constraint on an edge when cutting through a media is can it sustain its shape under the influence of the lateral forces. Is it stiff enough to withstand the attempts of the media to bend it otherwise will just buckle during the cut. Thus from a basic perspective you want to determine the absolute minimal geometry which allows the knife to keep its shape.

Now before I discuss this in detail I want to point out that there are a few other issues. If for example you just focused on that aspect and ignored the static and dynamic balance points the knife could cut horribly even though you have crafted a geometry which is extremely efficient at going through the media. The blade could have no ability for you to actually provide force to the cut or could induce severe vibrations on impact. However, these are usually not in opposition with cutting profiles constraints just additional factors which need to be considered.

So you have decided that you want to generate the most efficient geometry by balancing the edge grind to exactly match the force responce upon it. Well what does this mean exactly anyway. Consider what would happen if you took a decent machete and ground a 5 degree edge on it and used it for some wood work. The edge would buckle almost immediately. Make a note of the maximum depth of the damage. Repeat this with a 7 degree edge, 9, 11, 13, ..., until the damage stops. Now consider the results, you have shown that the angle which is needed to keep the edge stable is obviously dependent on the height of the blade from the edge.

For example the five degree damage depth may be extensive but at some height the blade will be thick enough even though ground that acute that it won't bend any more. So it is obvious that at a specific height that five degrees is functional. It should then also become immediately obvious that the optimal profile is one which starts at the minimum which keeps the very edge stable but quickly is reduced after that because as you move back from the edge you need less angle to keep it stable. Once you do some experimenting you will discover that your new profile is actually stronger than you predicted from your earlier experiments. This is because once an edge starts to bend the forces on it are magnified because of the way they load the edge, essentially the leverage increases. So you will find you can actually reduce the angles more than the first step wise analysis would predict.

Now this is where many people would note, hey wait a minute, doesn't this show that convex edges are superior. Yes it does - for that media and that method of cutting. But note clearly what it says, it doesn't say all convex edges are superior, it describes one very specific geometry which minimizes the stable cross section. Now take that same cross section and look at it critically. Consider the difference in performance between that bevel and two appropriate flat bevels. The performance would be very similar, in fact very difficult to tell apart.

Now further consider a convex bevel which was slightly off due to an improper optomization and a multiple bevel flat which was closer to the optimal curvature responce. Which would have superior performance. This should make it obvious that matching the cross section requirements is what is critical and the curvature to get there is a small refinement. Yes, it will be a refinement, because convex bevels offer essentially an additional degree of freedom, they reduce to flat bevels when the curvature is zero. However the main focus for a user has to be first and foremost on the cross section this is why you never say use convex bevels you always say minimize the cross section.

Now returning to earlier, I said that bevel just deduced is specific to that media. Consider the same with a small utility knife and cut thick pink styrofoam insulation. You will find a radically different result. The angle sensitivity above the edge quickly reduces to zero. In fact with a little thought and imagination you try negative angles (concave grinds) and find the stability limit is actuall less than zero. So the new optimal profile isn't convex any more but a hollow/convex hybrid. You then go back to your chopping blade and wonder if it is the same and see if you go high enough on the blade can you invert the curvature and still keep stability - yes you can. This is why hardwood felling axes have primary hollow grinds.

Thus you can predict that for some media which are fairly soft, but still very abrasive, the optimal profile would be deep hollow primary and a barely existing flat edge bevel. It isn't then difficult to realize how pretty much any geometry would be optimal for some media because you would expect all of them to have unique force responce curves. This as I noted in the above isn't the only part, you also have to match the weight, length and balance requirements of the user, as well consider that you are generally not cutting just one thing so you usually have to make some sort of compromise.

As a specific example, my large chopping blades typically are similar to 0.050"/8:0.020"/15 degrees. They drift around this a little, but the relief grind is about eight degrees and the edge thickness is about 0.050" (this is too thick but grinding down the primary on large chopper takes a lot of time and the effect is minimal due to the nonlinearity of the force responce). The actual edge apex angle is about 15 degrees, usually slightly less and is about 0.0150-0.020" thick. Now this is a bevel I freehand sharpen so it is one smooth curvature Fikes style usually, but again, it isn't the curvature which gives the performance it is the cross section. Which is why I never advocate curvature but cross section as a goal. As I noted, the optimal curvature will change from media to media, but the fundamental goal of cross section minimization always stays the same.

-Cliff
 
Heck of a good discussion... thanks! Now, having given my Buck 110 in 420HC to my daughter-in-law, do I get another or pick up a Cabella's 110 in S30V when we go through Fort Worth next month?

I would *only* buy another knife in S30V if it were hardened to at least 60.5. I would go with 420HC. If you want to try out my 110 in S30V, shoot me an email, I'll send you mine as a free passaround.
 
Cliff--

That's just an excellent synopsis. Thanks again for walking me through it.

From your explanation it seems to me that bottom line, the most efficient cutting edge is the thinnest that can take the stress of cutting the material one intends to cut.

Further, it seems that the most efficient primary profile behind the edge is the one that offers the least resistance to passing through that material, assuming no other limitations have been reached such as adequate strength/stiffness of the blade for the intended use, binding in the material, induced vibration, drag behind the primary grind such as that caused by the top edge of a hollow grind in "deep" material, etc.

If I'm off base here, please illuminate further.

Thanks,
Will
 
From your explanation it seems to me that bottom line, the most efficient cutting edge is the thinnest that can take the stress of cutting the material one intends to cut.

Yes, there is a balance you have to reach here in terms of issues like long term edge retention and accidental durability but that is the main goal. For example if you are just cutting cardboard you can take pretty much any cutlery steel down to about 3-5 degrees per side however if you hit a staple you may regret the optomization. It depends on the blade cost mainly, tradesmen will use knives with such profiles and take the cutting ability and just throw away the blade when it is damaged.

Further, it seems that the most efficient primary profile behind the edge is the one that offers the least resistance to passing through that material, assuming no other limitations have been reached such as adequate strength/stiffness of the blade for the intended use, binding in the material, induced vibration, drag behind the primary grind such as that caused by the top edge of a hollow grind in "deep" material, etc.

Yes, I would however include the bolded part to be covered with the constraint of "least resistance". The easy part of course is determing the constraints of optimal design, the implementation is the part that takes some effort. Of course you just leave that up to the guy you contract to make the thing.

-Cliff
 
Thanks, Cliff.

One more question--how is it that the cutting edge of a sharpened blade is about 1 micron across, when typical carbide size is much larger than that; 2-4 microns in the CPM steels; 8 microns or more in D2; and larger still in many other steels?
 
One more question--how is it that the cutting edge of a sharpened blade is about 1 micron across, when typical carbide size is much larger than that; 2-4 microns in the CPM steels; 8 microns or more in D2; and larger still in many other steels?

Cliff--

I edited my last post above a little while after posting it, to add the question quoted here on edge width vs. carbide size. Thought maybe you saw the original post before I edited and might have missed the question I added later.

thanks again,
will
 
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