A narrow escape on the AT...

[gadgetgeek]

I have a question for those of you in the "carry no matter what" camp. Hear me out on this.
What penalty would you personally face if you are caught with that gun. Is it a misdemeanor charge that will involve a fine and loss of that gun, would it be a felony with either a large fine or jail time, and the loss of the rest of your collection? Where you live, what you carry, what is the risk. "never been caught" isn't the answer, lets assume a police checkpoint when you get back to the trailhead looking for a wacko in the woods, and everyone gets the pack-dump.

The reason I ask is this, up here in Canada you could find yourself under a great many charges depending on where you were, not just related to the weapon. Carry of a pistol is a felony offense on it's own, but even with a non-restricted rifle you could potentially face poaching charges, or other charges directly related to being in a park. And if it happens to be a national park, all those charges are federal. If you are merely on provincial land, there is still the possibility of loosing your vehicle, and your gear as well. don't know what the rules are for searches, but I'd guess that the DNR can search whoever they want.

So, Does the potential penalty factor into your equation when you decide to carry illegally?

Note this has nothing to do with private property, I can do whatever I want on my land (save carry a pistol) but we are assuming for the sake of the question that we are on public land of some sort, be it national/state park, crown forestry lands, or other public access wilderness areas.

 

[wyattT]

he went through a whole lot of bullsh it and put his family, much less his daughter in far too much risk. he shoulda left or killed him along time before they got too far down that road.

 

[sabotage]

This situation could have ended horribly for these ladies. This is a prime example of the Have and not need rather than the need and not have mindset. I personally always carry my 45 with my while camping or backpacking. It just feels better to have it knowing that if needed the ones you love and care for will be protected. As other people have said there are certain types of folks that just like to cause trouble, For some of the people normal intimidation doesnt always work , Im 6' 7' 290 lbs and people always feel the need to prove something. When it comes down to it size has nothing to do with helping these situations. People need to realize that if you are going to carry a weapon no matter what type of weapon it is YOU have to be willing and prepared to use it for self preservation. Its a shame that the ones of us that enjoy the wilderness and being in nature cant always enjoy it without having to think about degenerate's trying to ruin the experiences that everyone should be able to enjoy. I was very happy to hear that this situation turned out well for these folks and hopefully it will not keep them from enjoying the outdoors in the future.

 

[sodak]

I have a question for those of you in the "carry no matter what" camp. Hear me out on this.
What penalty would you personally face if you are caught with that gun. Is it a misdemeanor charge that will involve a fine and loss of that gun, would it be a felony with either a large fine or jail time, and the loss of the rest of your collection? Where you live, what you carry, what is the risk. "never been caught" isn't the answer, lets assume a police checkpoint when you get back to the trailhead looking for a wacko in the woods, and everyone gets the pack-dump.

The reason I ask is this, up here in Canada you could find yourself under a great many charges depending on where you were, not just related to the weapon. Carry of a pistol is a felony offense on it's own, but even with a non-restricted rifle you could potentially face poaching charges, or other charges directly related to being in a park. And if it happens to be a national park, all those charges are federal. If you are merely on provincial land, there is still the possibility of loosing your vehicle, and your gear as well. don't know what the rules are for searches, but I'd guess that the DNR can search whoever they want.

So, Does the potential penalty factor into your equation when you decide to carry illegally?

Note this has nothing to do with private property, I can do whatever I want on my land (save carry a pistol) but we are assuming for the sake of the question that we are on public land of some sort, be it national/state park, crown forestry lands, or other public access wilderness areas.

Yes, it enters into the decision making process. In my neck of the woods, concealed carry is legal under certain conditions, and I make sure that I meet those conditions. If not, then I will strongly consider it and all the other options available to me.

 

[Azimsdad]

It has been said, and it is true, that the best weapon you possess is your brain. The mother showed very poor judgment in exposing herself and her daughter to the likes of this punk and his big dog. All the signs of catastrophe were present: the remoteness of the location, the whiskey, take out and drugs. "GET OUT" should have been screaming in her brain. She could have turned around and gotten out of there but she panicked and when she did, she became passive. It is highly unlikely that a woman, like this, would ever resort to carrying a firearm much less using it, but she should have at least carried bear spray or some form of security. The woods are dangerous and you need to protect yourself and loved ones. If that jerk was a bear, wouldn't they have headed the other way. She needs to act responsibly or stay out of the woods!

 

[sabotage]

It has been said, and it is true, that the best weapon you possess is your brain. The mother showed very poor judgment in exposing herself and her daughter to the likes of this punk and his big dog. All the signs of catastrophe were present: the remoteness of the location, the whiskey, take out and drugs. "GET OUT" should have been screaming in her brain. She could have turned around and gotten out of there but she panicked and when she did, she became passive. It is highly unlikely that a woman, like this, would ever resort to carrying a firearm much less using it, but she should have at least carried bear spray or some form of security. The woods are dangerous and you need to protect yourself and loved ones. If that jerk was a bear, wouldn't they have headed the other way. She needs to act responsibly or stay out of the woods!

Could not agree more, Many people forget about the dangers of being in remote locations thay always seem to think of the four legged animals and forget about the two legged ones.

 

[teacher]

I never could find what I was referring to above about the wasp/hornet spray.. but it looks like sadiejane found some good articles/info. :thumbup:

Mine info on it may have been in an email I deleted.... I don't know. I just remember I read about it.

 

[coyotebc]

At the risk of tainting this discussion, which I feel has gone far better than I had dared to hope, I'll reveal another little detail about the incident that I just learned.

All may not be as was presented by the "victim". In fact, after a bit of investigation by others, and a lot of web search by myself, it appears that the lady doth protest too much. In other words, the incident may never have happened.



There is no State Police record yet found of the incident, no news article, no announcement of an arrest. MA State Police deny even hearing of the incident, much less responding with multiple patrol units and subsequently making an arrest.

The woman has logged on to several sites and answered questions to bolster her story and gain sympathetic responses, but never responded to more direct questions such as the quote above. More and more, it is appearing to be a hoax for attention.


I apologize to members who feel I have done them a disservice in posting this in the first place. However, even if the story is a complete fiction, the points made by myself and others do still stand on their own merit. Enough incidents have come to light (proven, often tragic incidents) in the past few years to warrant our being aware of the possibilities, and teaching our loved ones to be cautious.

Codger

Even if this one incident is fake I am sure if you looked hard enough you could find dozens if not hundreds of verified incidents that were similar.

When I was in my 20's, I practiced Aiki ju-jitsu and for about 2 years I volunteered as an assistant to a women that ran women's self defense courses.
The sad thing was that most of these women only signed up for these classes after they had been victimized.

 

[knifephan]

So many good points in this thread. Thanks for starting it.

To answer some of the questions from my perspective. I live in VA and hike/camp a fair amount. When I go it is usually with friends. We always go armed. I do not have a CC permit, but if no others have one I CC my .45 illegally. I am not sure what the penalty is if I was caught, but as others have said, it is concealed and I know my rights as far as search goes. I know the penalty for getting caught without it though, and I would rather end up in jail because I had my gun and saved my (or a friends) life, than end up dead. If one of my friends that does have a CC is along for the ride I leave my gun at home, no need to risk it if the group is armed.

We also avoid the campsite and shelter type places for the same reasons others have mentioned, just not the experience we are looking for when we go out in the woods.

I have a fair amount of MA training. That said, and knowing I carry in the woods, I am a pacifist and have run from more fights than I have stuck around to see if I can win. The only fight you win is the one you avoid.

On the subject of hornet spray, it is some nasty stuff, kills em dead in 1-2 seconds and shoots 10-20 feet even straight up (though not recommended). I have never been hit with it or hit anyone with it, but I would rather it than nothing at all, and maybe it is better than a sharp stick due to the range it offers. Having seen what it does to hornets and read the warnings on the can, I can safely say I never want to catch a blast of it to the mug. I can not see how it could be "illegal" to carry a can of bee spray anywhere it is sold and since one of my frequent camping buddy's is highly allergic to bees we almost always have a can on us in the woods, though using it as a weapon had never crossed my mind before this thread.

Thanks again for the great thread.

*Edit to add: The quote earlier in the thread "If there is any doubt, there is no doubt" is from the movie Ronin, said by Robert De Niro.

 

[dogboye]

I live in VA and hike/camp a fair amount. When I go it is usually with friends. We always go armed. I do not have a CC permit, but if no others have one I CC my .45 illegally. I am not sure what the penalty is if I was caught, but as others have said, it is concealed and I know my rights as far as search goes. I know the penalty for getting caught without it though, and I would rather end up in jail because I had my gun and saved my (or a friends) life, than end up dead. If one of my friends that does have a CC is along for the ride I leave my gun at home, no need to risk it if the group is armed.

For goodness sake, why don't you just get the CC permit. It isn't that difficult to get. Even I have one, and I don't even live in VA. I would understand if you lived in a state where you couldn't get a permit. But VA?

 

[knifephan]

For goodness sake, why don't you just get the CC permit. It isn't that difficult to get. Even I have one, and I don't even live in VA. I would understand if you lived in a state where you couldn't get a permit. But VA?

At the moment I am unemployed and can not afford it. Was on my list to do, but I got my handgun shortly before being laid off.

Now I actually have a new problem, I have a job offer over seas and I don't know if I can even bring my gun. I have not had luck finding gun laws for the country in question.

 

[tholiver]

At the moment I am unemployed and can not afford it. Was on my list to do, but I got my handgun shortly before being laid off.

Now I actually have a new problem, I have a job offer over seas and I don't know if I can even bring my gun. I have not had luck finding gun laws for the country in question.

There are exceptions but for the most part ,Unless you are military or police, its highly unlikely you will be allowed to bring a gun into another country, let alone a handgun. The exception usually being hunters who are allowed to bring in huntings guns, but that usually requires lots of paper work and has restrictions.
Check the consulate website for the country you are potentially moving to, send an email inquiring as to their laws. You might want to do that semi-anonymously in case they are a particularly hoplophobic nation,lol. Set up a new email address and send them your questions. Also they might even have a consulate in the U.S where you could make your inquiries by email or by phone.
Don't you have any relatives/friends who you can store the gun for you while you are overseas? That might be your best bet.

 

[knifephan]

There are exceptions but for the most part ,Unless you are military or police, its highly unlikely you will be allowed to bring a gun into another country, let alone a handgun. The exception usually being hunters who are allowed to bring in huntings guns, but that usually requires lots of paper work and has restrictions.
Check the consulate website for the country you are potentially moving to, send an email inquiring as to their laws. You might want to do that semi-anonymously in case they are a particularly hoplophobic nation,lol. Set up a new email address and send them your questions. Also they might even have a consulate in the U.S where you could make your inquiries by email or by phone.
Don't you have any relatives/friends who you can store the gun for you while you are overseas? That might be your best bet.

I do, and that is more than likely where they will end up. I would feel a lot better about bringing them, but I already assumed I would not be allowed. At least one of my knives on the other hand are going, legal or no. I go nowhere without a knife.

I will look into it more with the consulate, and actually have a bogus e-mail adde for things like this already. Thanks for the suggestions.

Just in case anyone has insight directly, the country in question is The Republic of Georgia. Maybe I should start a new thread though, I don't want to be known as a thread derailer...

 

[KerriTM]

The only problem with carrying a gun is training most people dont have a clue how to really use a fire arm for self defensive purposes in fact alot of people I personally know who hunt, shoot often, and own several guns only THINK they know what they are doing. The biggest factor with a gun in a self defense situation is the will to kill and people in general dont posess that even when faced with extreme situations. For those that are trained and are confident in themselves to be able to pull the trigger should the need arise I say go for it. as for the rest of your outdoor enthusiast Id suggest the mace, pepper spray etc. option and a class on how to Properly deploy em

 

[KerriTM]

Oh to add to that a rifle is a totally different skill and a much easier one at that than a pistol especially used for self defense

 

[22-rimfire]

I carry out in the woods now, legally. In the past, I would have carried regardless of things like carry permits and so forth. You see, down deep, I feel that no carry permit should be required and in the woods, firearms and knives are usually very accepted. This is in response to an earlier post. However, I am not in Canada but I have hiked in National and State Parks where firearms were not allowed until recently. You make your choices and you have to live with them. That is part of being an adult.

Due to the nature of my job which exposes me to potential harm from other people, about 5 years ago, I decided to get the permit and be "legal". If I were in the situation described in the initial post, I would never have spent the night there regardless of being a man or woman. I don't even want to talk to somebody like that. It is bad enough to encounter somebody like this in the woods and really stupid to continue to expose yourself to that danger if you have any choice. They had a choice in the scenario and decided to stay in the shelter more than likely because it was dark or about dark. Still a stupid choice.

I don't think you need a lot of training to effectively use a firearm in self defense. Often a 22LR is plenty of power for 2-legged defense. Self defense distances are not normally more than 10 yds. Most who shoot their guns even infrequently can be effective at that distance. Training obviously helps, but I don't think you have to be trained to have the "will to kill" and defending yourself is a decision that is made at the time and not something you can convince yourself that .... I'll do this or that.... Most who are around guns think about this, but few are ever called to make that decision in real life in a non-LEO role. Many LEO's go their entire career and never fire their weapon on the job.

 

[KerriTM]

I carry out in the woods now, legally. In the past, I would have carried regardless of things like carry permits and so forth. You see, down deep, I feel that no carry permit should be required and in the woods, firearms and knives are usually very accepted. This is in response to an earlier post. However, I am not in Canada but I have hiked in National and State Parks where firearms were not allowed until recently. You make your choices and you have to live with them. That is part of being an adult.

Due to the nature of my job which exposes me to potential harm from other people, about 5 years ago, I decided to get the permit and be "legal". If I were in the situation described in the initial post, I would never have spent the night there regardless of being a man or woman. I don't even want to talk to somebody like that. It is bad enough to encounter somebody like this in the woods and really stupid to continue to expose yourself to that danger if you have any choice. They had a choice in the scenario and decided to stay in the shelter more than likely because it was dark or about dark. Still a stupid choice.

I don't think you need a lot of training to effectively use a firearm in self defense. Often a 22LR is plenty of power for 2-legged defense. Self defense distances are not normally more than 10 yds. Most who shoot their guns even infrequently can be effective at that distance. Training obviously helps, but I don't think you have to be trained to have the "will to kill" and defending yourself is a decision that is made at the time and not something you can convince yourself that .... I'll do this or that.... Most who are around guns think about this, but few are ever called to make that decision in real life in a non-LEO role. Many LEO's go their entire career and never fire their weapon on the job.

There have been alot of insidents were people have had their guns taken and used on them it takes alot of practice and the know how to be able to pull your concealed weapon and be able to use it effectivally against an attacker. There have also been many LEO's who have been killed by their own weapons because most of them never have to use it that one time someone does they either arent prepared or once again dont have the will to kill so they never pull the trigger I've seen it happen to trained infantrymen in combat. Not everyone has the ability to be able to kill another human being even in the worst of circumstances. So once again IMHO i dont recommend just everyone carry a concealed firearm

 

[Codger_64]

There have been alot of insidents were people have had their guns taken and used on them it takes alot of practice and the know how to be able to pull your concealed weapon and be able to use it effectivally against an attacker. There have also been many LEO's who have been killed by their own weapons because most of them never have to use it that one time someone does they either arent prepared or once again dont have the will to kill so they never pull the trigger I've seen it happen to trained infantrymen in combat. Not everyone has the ability to be able to kill another human being even in the worst of circumstances. So once again IMHO i dont recommend just everyone carry a concealed firearm

I am not sure what you mean when you say "a lot of people have had their guns taken and used on them". I have heard a few anecdotal stories of this, but I am not aware that the number is great enough to be statistically important enough to indicate a trend. Meanwhile, survey after survey reveal a significant number of reports where a gun is used in a defensive situation by civilians.

A national survey conducted in 1994 by the Police Foundation and sponsored by the National Institute of Justice almost exactly confirmed the estimates from the National Self-Defense Survey. This surveys person-based estimate was that 1.44% of the adult population had used a gun for protection against a person in the previous year, implying 2.73 million defensive gun users. These results were well within sampling error of the corresponding 1.33% and 2.55 million estimates produced by the National Self-Defense Survey.

Note that using a firearm for self defense doesn't necessarily equate to killing someone, or wounding them, or even discharging the firearm.

It does make sense for anyone considering carrying a firearm for self defense to get some sort of competent training in use, safety and maintenance.

 

[dogboye]

So once again IMHO i dont recommend just everyone carry a concealed firearm

I VEHEMENTLY disagree. EVERYONE should carry a concealed firearm, unless they are mentally unstable or have been convicted of a felony (and I would even say that last case is debatable, with the number of offenses that our gov't has decided to call felony charges). EVERYONE is intelligent enough to get a firearm and learn how to use if for defense with only the knowledge that is provided in the manual with every gun I've ever bought. EVERYONE has the right and responsibility to defend themselves, and a firearm is the most reliable means with the least training. I am certain that training greatly improves your ability to wield the firearm efficiently, and good training will allow you to wield it with greater safety to yourself and others (including retention drills). That should go without saying. I also believe that the ability to pull the trigger when you need to can be strengthened through training. And certainly the knowledge of when you shouldn't pull the trigger can be imparted through training. But to recommend a lesser defensive weapon to someone who can legally carry a firearm is nothing less than irresponsible, IMO.

Sorry for the rant, but i get more than a little angry when I hear that sort of blanket statement.