A narrow escape on the AT...

[hollowdweller]

My wife and I were talking about hiking to an old cemetary I had gone to as a kid.

This is in a large area of woods criss crossed by power lines and gas right of ways but all wooded.

My wife said she thought it would be cool but that with the easy ATV access and being near a large city "Id want to take a gun if I went back in there. Too easy for people to access"

Back when I was growing up you had to go there on foot.

 

[Smash05]

Do people feel as though prepared campgrounds become targets? The one sure situation I was in was 8 years ago now, and it was in a state park with individual camps. A group of skin heads were walking from site to site, I assume looking to steal or rob. We ended up getting a call in to the Rangers after I persuaded them that this was not the camp they were looking for.

 

[Albin]

Lot's of good advice here so can't re-quote it all, but my .02.....

Mistake 1: NO MEANS OF SELF PRESERVATION. These ladies are EXTREMELY LUCKY!
Mistake 2: Stranger, MUCH hard liquor, sticking around.
Mistake 3: Stranger, MUCH hard liquor, offering drugs, sticking around.
Mistake 4: Stranger, talking to himself, kids, far from help, sticking around.
Mistake 5: Stranger, common dwelling, even CONSIDERING going to sleep in same dwelling with stranger even before he showed his disposition.
Etc., etc., etc.

There were MANY pre-cursers to the final trigger to leave, it should have never gone that far.

a.) pack a gun even where potentially prohibited....yes, what did the Troopers say?
b.) pack a canister where bears not a problem....undecided, could just as easily be used against you if acquired by bad guy.....now you're NOT GETTING AWAY THROUGH THE WOODS! Yes, he could possibly get the gun away too. But would you rather be shot, or his slave, then killed.
c.) yes, suggest they acquire one or the other, acquire training, carry ON PERSON in a butt pack holster or concealed holster.

Other comments: Big stick nearly pointless. There a lot of people around that THINK they can do a lot of "things with things". A stick, club or whatever "in untrained hands" against a very motivated human, whose training or scope of narcotics of which you have no knowledge, is nearly useless. I apologize in advance but these kinds of assumptions never cease to amaze me. I sincerely mean no offense but it reminds me of the scene from The Warriors when one of the Warriors told a large baseball bat and makeup wielding opponent gang member "I'll shove that bat......and turn you into a popsicle". I say in all sincerity, don't think you have the skills to do something you do not practice everyday, you are fooling yourself.

In a recent MMA matchup, a very skilled professional boxer making his first appearance in that realm, was defeated in "full submission" by a fighter whose primary skills are "wrestling". You have no idea the skills of an opponent unknown to you. These ladies should have had the tools and training to balance the odds. Moreover, they should have left the area the moment they witnessed the scene. They are incredibly lucky to be alive.

You can't fix stupid.

 

[Shoki]

Do people feel as though prepared campgrounds become targets? The one sure situation I was in was 8 years ago now, and it was in a state park with individual camps. A group of skin heads were walking from site to site, I assume looking to steal or rob. We ended up getting a call in to the Rangers after I persuaded them that this was not the camp they were looking for.

I do believe that prepared campgrounds, shelters, etc. are more of a magnet for D-bags just because of the likelihood of people being there in general. When I visit an area that is a tourist hotspot, about one in five times there is at least one idiot that I could see having a problem with. Just a little while ago, I came across some pricks on top of Artist's Bluff throwing rocks off the cliff towards the trail up to the top. I told them if they threw one more rock, I was going to send them over after it. I believe my visible Spydie on my belt had something to do with their quiet compliance and hasty exit.

 

[fixer]

my EDC includes a largeish folding knife and a Glock 19 with a spare mag. sometimes i have OX in the truck, or on me if i'm going somewhere there are large crowds. need to get some fresh OC because mine is a bit old.

i'm 6'2" and don't usually get targeted.

if mom had had at least a snubbie, or pepper spray and the will to use it, the first scenario could have ended right after "Chris" said he was going to F the daughter and kill the mom.

i mean, really... if someone confronts you in the woods and says they're going to kill you and rape your daughter, it's time to put a stop to that shit right there.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

My wife said she thought it would be cool but that with the easy ATV access and being near a large city "Id want to take a gun if I went back in there. Too easy for people to access"

Back when I was growing up you had to go there on foot.

Do people feel as though prepared campgrounds become targets? The one sure situation I was in was 8 years ago now, and it was in a state park with individual camps. A group of skin heads were walking from site to site, I assume looking to steal or rob.

I was thinking the same thing. With so many people around these days, packed into cities, access to parks and forests easier than ever, you do need to be alert to the possibilities.

 

[fixer]

A huge element for these two ladies would be deciding they were not prey. Food animals should know not to graze among predators.

if you look like prey, you will be eaten!

 

[Smash05]

You know, my size 6'3" 275 - has never deterred crazy. As a matter of fact I am pretty sure some folks have tried to fight me because of my size. I think attitude is more important. If you look like you could be a problem, people will stear clear. My sister in law calls it the bitch face, she uses it on public transit.

 

[teacher]

i mean, really... if someone confronts you in the woods and says they're going to kill you and rape your daughter, it's time to put a stop to that shit right there.

:thumbup:
+1

 

[omniviking]

My wife left me dumb founded the other day. I think it was the show Night Line and they had a spot about hiking and bears and weirdos. They mentioned bear spray and guns. My wife jumps in and says "or you could take hornet spray, it shoots a long ways...." ??? who is this woman I married? she fights dirty. Anyhow a couple of things about this idea.

1) What would hornet spray in the face do to a person? (Honey, don't do this to me, put the can down please...)

2) I was thinking the other day about hiking on public trails and what would you do if you found a bee/ wasp/ hornet's nest in one of the shelters you would be using. What would you do to handle the bees.

SO, ready for bees, but If my wife spray said weirdo in the face with this and ran like hell, would the bad guy be slowed down? Don't know where she gets these ideas, but it kinda scares me.

 

[Shoki]

My wife left me dumb founded the other day. I think it was the show Night Line and they had a spot about hiking and bears and weirdos. They mentioned bear spray and guns. My wife jumps in and says "or you could take hornet spray, it shoots a long ways...." ??? who is this woman I married? she fights dirty. Anyhow a couple of things about this idea.

1) What would hornet spray in the face do to a person? (Honey, don't do this to me, put the can down please...)

2) I was thinking the other day about hiking on public trails and what would you do if you found a bee/ wasp/ hornet's nest in one of the shelters you would be using. What would you do to handle the bees.

SO, ready for bees, but If my wife spray said weirdo in the face with this and ran like hell, would the bad guy be slowed down? Don't know where she gets these ideas, but it kinda scares me.

Do you watch American Pickers on the History channel? Did you see the one where they are looking at a rusted scooter and Mike finds a hornets nest in it? The old guy reached in, grabbed the nest, and squished it like it was a handful of pink feathers that called his mom a bad name. That's what I would think about doing....


...Then I'd just leave the damn things alone and sleep somewhere else.

 

[teacher]

My wife jumps in and says "or you could take hornet spray, it shoots a long ways...." ???

I read something about this very thing a couple of months ago. I'll "try" and find it tonight and post it... [If I can only remember where I read it.]

Best I remember the article said it worked pretty good.... although might not be legal everywhere???? trying to remember... ????

Anyway, if I find it I'll post it.

 

[hollowdweller]

I was thinking the same thing. With so many people around these days, packed into cities, access to parks and forests easier than ever, you do need to be alert to the possibilities.

Esav,

There's also the thing where sort of urban renewal has forced a lot of people out of the cities and maybe they are too crazy to get it together to pay rent but they can pay for a night or 2 in a campground.

 

[hollowdweller]

My wife and I stopped at one of our favorite camp grounds in the national forest on the way to a festival.

We got there LATE, might have been like 12:30 and there was a group at the next campsite maybe 75 yards away with a big fire. So we are there setting up the tent and one of them comes our way and wants to know if we need help or need him to hold a flashlight. I told him we were fine.

Well as we get in the tent and drift off to sleep they are getting drunk and cussing each other not mean but just having a good redneck time and we crash out. Right before I drift off I think "those guys are gonna be HUNG OVER"

The next morning we got up early and they were gone. I guess they weren't even camping just stopped there to have a party

The next morning also I looked across and there was an old guy getting up at the site across the road and he was alone in a car stuffed full and I struck up a conversation with him.

Turns out that he retired and when the lease on his apt ran out he put all his big stuff in storage, bought a tent at Wal Mart and had decided to just camp at state parks in WV (he was from WV) until it got cold. "My family thinks I'm crazy" he said.

Anyway he said he had seen a lot of great scenery and also enjoyed meeting and talking to all the difft folks.:thumbup:

 

[sadiejane]

My wife left me dumb founded the other day. I think it was the show Night Line and they had a spot about hiking and bears and weirdos. They mentioned bear spray and guns. My wife jumps in and says "or you could take hornet spray, it shoots a long ways...." ??? who is this woman I married? she fights dirty. Anyhow a couple of things about this idea.

1) What would hornet spray in the face do to a person? (Honey, don't do this to me, put the can down please...)

2) I was thinking the other day about hiking on public trails and what would you do if you found a bee/ wasp/ hornet's nest in one of the shelters you would be using. What would you do to handle the bees.

SO, ready for bees, but If my wife spray said weirdo in the face with this and ran like hell, would the bad guy be slowed down? Don't know where she gets these ideas, but it kinda scares me.

that concept went around on the internet recently. it was stated that the person who got sprayed would have to seek medical attention for an "antidote". this article suggested women living alone keep it by the front door. that it was considerably more effective than pepper spray. maybe based on the idea that it can shoot much farther than most pepper sprays. legal? theres some stickiness here. a coupla articles:
http://www.fightbackgroup.com/blog/?p=249
http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/waspspray.asp

 

[gadgetgeek]

Legality or not, I'm thinking a super-soaker full of rubbing alcohol would be about as effective. The stuff might sting your eyes, but that would be about it, where as OC can also cause respiratory discomfort.
Also I've very rarely had trouble near wasp/hornet nests, unless the nest was disturbed, or there were large numbers of open sodas around. if you did find a nest that had to be removed, you could either wait until the outside temp dropped, then bag and remove the nest, or smoke them out. inhabited wasp nests don't burn very well. but for the most part I've never worried much about it.

 

[dogboye]

From your perspective, is it wise to:
(A) pack a concealed gun for protection even where prohibited or unlicensed/without CCW permit?

Yes.

(B) pack a cannister of bear spray in an area where bears are either non-existant or not a problem?

Well, if you insist on not carrying enough gun to take care of the bear (or person). A .45 ACP is enough, and easy enough to carry concealed.

(C) advise someone else (such as the two ladies in the story) to acquire either protection without making further comment on training and legality?

Yes. All you really need to know is how to load, make ready, and fire the weapon in order to protect yourself. People have been doing it for as long as guns have been made.

Train if you want to, but the most important thing is to have the gun in the first place.

 

[James 61]

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I believe the number of predators among us is unchanged when measured as a percentage of the population. However, there's an awful lot more of us now than in, say, 1980 (about 100 million more) so the total number of predators is that much greater.

In addition, urban flight, which has given rise to the exurbs, has also created larger populations closer to our wild areas. Again, as a percentage of the population, the number of predators has remained static, but the rise in population means there's a corresponding rise in the raw number of predators.

Finally, people these days have become quite soft and trusting, especially in the wilderness. Used to be, people traveled warily in the wilderness, but not anymore. The result is a easier prey population, which only serves to attract predators.

And then, finally, success breeds more attempts. The more success predators have in the back country, the more predators will hunt there. Of course, our hysterical press which only serves to advertise predation success is helping to encourage this phenomena.

Bottom line: people need to be a lot more careful in the wilderness than they are at, say, starbucks. Sadly, too few actually get this message.

All good points that I was going to bring up.

I think an additional factor that needs to be considered is that society has become more tolerant of behavior that is outside of the norm and that as a result there is less incentive for people like this to keep to themselves and not cause problems for the rest of us. I present the following example. In Portland Or which is very near where I live the (now former) mayor tied the hands of the police in regards to homeless camps and vagrants and even had a piece of city owned property set aside for a permanent homeless camp. From what I understand this has made Portland an attractive destination for the homeless despite the damp winter weather. Now I know not everyone who is homeless is crazy or a threat but there is a measurable portion of homeless people who do fit that description.

I just read a report in the news that referenced the percentages of people that have mental issues. The figured cited was that 20% of people have some sort of issue and another 5% have serious issues. 5% may not seam like much until you multiply that across the population of the country. As of the 2000 census we had something like 6 million people just in my home state. That means that there are approx 30,000 people who are potentially dangerous to themselves and/or others. Now factor in the ongoing financial crises and the fact that mental health services were being cut before the economy went bad and that means that these individuals that were getting assistance via medication, counseling, housing etc... have seen there support network cut out from under them. This does not leave much in the way of options and their choices become shelters, underpasses and wooded areas

What makes the wilderness/forest/parks etc... popular is that many of them are free and there is no cost involved to reside there and they are poorly patrolled. Here in the national forest system you can camp for 14 days in one spot (primitive sites not actual campgrounds) before you are required to move. There is no limit to how long you can stay in the forest which means that as long as you move every 14 days you can live indefinitely in the woods.

I think that not only is there a increased reporting of incidents which raises awareness but that there is an actual increase in the number of incidents that are occurring.

One other thing I wanted to point out regarding this story. Yes I know it turned out to be a hoax. The first thing that I thought when she described the individual and the presence of alcohol bottles was that I would have kept moving. I would have headed up the trail at least 1/4 mile and found a better spot or turned back and placed the same distance between us before looking for a spot to camp. I'm a man with military experience and can look after myself and I would not have put myself in that situation. I don't like borrowing trouble and someone fitting that description strikes me as having plenty to go around.

 

[dogboye]

Lead pills can cure a ton of ills.

And open up a whole new ton.

 

[allenC]

Yes.


Well, if you insist on not carrying enough gun to take care of the bear (or person). A .45 ACP is enough, and easy enough to carry concealed.


Yes. All you really need to know is how to load, make ready, and fire the weapon in order to protect yourself. People have been doing it for as long as guns have been made.

Train if you want to, but the most important thing is to have the gun in the first place.

I agree 100%.