A Note On Prices

Fiddleback

Fiddleback

Knifemaker
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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
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Recently, I read a thread at another forum where guys spoke very nicely about my knives, but complained that they were too expensive. In addition to this, I have been getting a bit of e-mails from customers asking me to negotiate on the price of a knife. I have cut a bit of text from an e-mail I sent to a supporter about this issue and wanted to share it here. This customer wasn't rude, and wasn't disrescpectful with his query and I am not upset with him. I just thought it an opportune time to discuss this issue here, since in my own opinion, I am at the upper ceiling of pricing for user knives.

Please also know that I am fighting to make the business as efficient as possible to avoid raising prices. This is why we make more knives, rather than raising prices on knives. It takes me twice the time to work a week these days. This makes the business work, but this won't work forever because I am only one person and have maxed myself out. Also please consider the environment these days. In my own opinion, my businesses days are numbered. I can't keep up with the rising costs and regulation due to the American situation. Maybe we should vote for free knives like we voted for free healthcare. My family's healthcare costs have quadrupled and this morning the GA insurance comissioner has estimated a 198% increase next year due to Obammycare. Can I raise my prices 600% and still have y'all buy the knives? I wouldn't even want to. Maybe the govt can mandate your knife purchases? Woot! (What a nightmare.)

Anyhoo, this is the copied portion of my reply about negotiating my prices:

"Consider this. During a giant recession where American manufacturers packed their bags and sent their jobs offshore, I started a small manufacturing business and now employ 3 people (including myself). None of us are high paid I can assure you. The knives are not overpriced. The profit on the business is less than 10%. And getting any profit at all takes a lot of work.

Did you know that I went full time at knifemaking in lieu of taking unemployment benefits after being laid off during the worst part of the recession. I could have laid around and taken the check. I could have left the businesses moneys off the forms and taken your tax $ while working on the knives. I chose to risk it all on the knife business, and stay off your pocketbook!

In addition to this, please also consider that I have not raised my prices in over two years. During that time, shipping has more than doubled. That includes shipping supplies to us, and also shipping knives to the customers. Even so, I have not started charging shipping to US customers. Unfortunately, everything else I put on and into a knife has also gone up drastically.

We�re barely scraping by my friend.

Unfortunately, there are MANY hobby makers that are not charging properly for their work. I have addressed this on Bladeforums many times. You can read again and again about makers charging $5/hr for their work. In addition to taking out the biggest expense, they also don�t pay for things like rent, business licenses, insurance, and all the other things a legitimate business pays. How can this industry expect to survive with this kind of underhanded competition form guys simply trying to pay for supplies?

I hope you are one of those Americans that supports American Businesses and American Manufacturing. If you are, then please be assured that my business needs your help and support. If American Craftsmanship is important to you and you like our work, then please support us. We will greatly appreciate it, and constantly strive to make better and better knives for all of your knife needs.

I guess the shorter answer to your question is that I don�t ever lower my prices. Never have and never will. I am very glad you are happy with your first Fiddleback knife, and hope to make more that suit your needs."



I have written a lot on BF about the underpricing that some custom/handmade makers charge. Especially hobby makers. We are a Walmart society, and want everything cheap. Unfortunately, this isn't sustainable for actual above board knife businesses in America. This is why it is so critical that YOU find and support the legitimate knife businesses that are charging fair prices for their work. If you are buying a handmade knife for $60 and singing to yourself about the great DEAL you got on it, also sing the blues to yourself about killing off the above board knifemakers businesses.

I will not consider trying to compete with $5/hr labor rates. I will either support my family with this business, or get another job that can support them. I consider myself blessed to have been able to make and sell knives to all of you. But I'm not getting rich from this, and my prices are not too high.

Thank you for your consideration. Please support the above board and fairly priced knifemakers. Please use judgement and don't buy underpriced knives.
 
Andy, I have owned a few custom knives from different makers. Some cheaper, some more expensive. I have yet to find one that matches your quality and attention to detail. I have also yet to find a knife more comfortable than the ones you make. Your knives are easily worth more than you charge.

Thanks for keeping your prices so low.
 
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Well, I'm not American, so I couldn't care less where my knives are made.
What I do care about is quality materials, functional designs, looks and usability.
Those factors tend to do stuff with the price...

In the words of another forumite I know;
Cheap tools is misplaced economy.
 
I'd rather pay 300$ for one of your knives than for any production knives up there (some of them are pretty expensive). You get exactly what you pay for with a FB. I got my first before your price increased, and my second recently. To me, you are the maker so you are entitled to ask what you want for your knives, and if the customer is not happy, there are plenty of other knives there they can buy. I chose to buy your knives, I chose to encourage your business, I chose to help you make a living of your passion.
 
Custom knives are free market driven. Prices are a reflection of what people are willing to pay. No one can tell me that a Randall bowie costs $1000 because of how awesome and expensive the steel is. It costs $1000 because that's what people are willing to pay for it.

I'd pay triple for these knives. I'd just have 1/3 as many as I do right now :)
 
Andy has only touched on what it takes to be even a moderately successful knife maker. Andy is one of the nicest guys in the business and I hate that I do not get to spend enough time with him at shows. What he speaks is the truth and he has not even touched on what it takes to keep a knife shop running. I have had to charge extra for shipping, especially to the west coast. Supplies are going up to and as Andy said, we have to eat that shipping too.

If you do not turn a profit, you will not be in business long. Even at a 10% profit margin, any machinery break down or any other issues that pop up at once can put you out of business. It was the same in the landscaping industry. Buy a old truck, a hoe, rake and a cheap mower, and you are in business. They go around cutting everyone's prices just to get the business and they are gone in a couple of seasons when they realize they are not making money or they try to go legit and get a reality check.
Anything I can do for you Andy, just let me know.
 
I find your knives to be an incredible bargain!

Knifemaking is one of the only jobs where you probably have to be in the top 5% to even make a profit.

The amount of money it takes to put a shop together and keep it running is much higher than I anticipated. It still surprises me!

Keep bringing it! Your work speaks for itself.
 
When you started selling knives, how much were you able to value your hours labor at?
I only make knives for a hobby and to give away but If i do sell one it will go at market driven price and will probably be LESS than 5.00 an hour. Unknown maker = low price even on a quality knife........or is that underhanded competition?

James
 
Excellent craftsmanship is only one part of what justifies the price for a knife. Customer service is another. Fiddlebackforge offers both to a high level! Your prices are more than reasonable from my perspective!
 
Andy,you do make a great knife & I have bought from you in the past,though only once but have owned 4 other FBFs I've gotten off the Ex.(Beautiful,functional knives all BTW & I still wear my FBF hat with pride)
I am also an American Vet & feel very strongly about buying American & I do whenever I can,but I gotta say that calling hobby makers underhanded is a bit much.
Didn't you start making & selling knives as a hobby yourself & were you being underhanded when you did?
I'm sorry to say I stopped buying your knives because I simply couldn't afford them on my wages.
I wish I could afford your knives but the plain facts are some of us can't & have to look elsewere to get our fixes.
I'm also sorry that you're struggling in this bad economy & hope for all our sakes that things pick up real soon.
 
Double your prices and then have 50% sales on Fiddleback Friday!

Nice knives are expensive.
Beautiful knives and Sexxxy functional knives even more so.

The Fiddleback line-up is constantly re-tuned and so variable, you'll never really see two of the same.
I like this constant change.

This is home grown goodness. The prices are fine.
 
Andy is right about the "underhanded competition" but it is not totally the fault of the makers, unless you consider the fact that there are damn too many of them out there to be their fault. ;) In 1992, I bought a small 7 inch forged 1084 fighter with a maple burl handle with an ebony buttcap and a plain Kenny Rowe sheath from Joe Flournoy for $375 at the Guild Show in Orlando. It did not have a JS or MS stamp on it. I recall that it was one of his last JS knives that he made before he got his MS stamp that summer. Anyone want to guess what a maker like me could ask for the same knife 21 years later? How about guessing what COSTS are to make such a knife in 2013 compared to 1992? Anyone remember when Damascus knives, which had rather simple patterns back then, were priced by the blade inch before you added on for exotic handle materials? Remember that the per inch price was myabe 7-10 times as much per inch as what you can get some US made commercial Damascus for today?
 
Andy, that you feel a need to defend your pricing structure to someone looking for a less expensive Fiddleback knife actually kind of frosts me. We have become a society of people who have been raised with an entitlement mentality. We want and are entitled to instant gratification, big paychecks, lots of entertainment, and the best of everything from cars to Italian marble countertops to knives to clothing. It is beyond ridiculous. Those are not things that occupied the minds of our founding fathers nor were they necessary to build this country.

The person who asked you to lower your prices may think that your prices are at the high end of user knives (and perhaps you do as well), but I can assure you that is NOT the case. My most expensive user cost approximately 8 times what your knives typically go for and I have many other users with higher price points than your knives. That may shock some folks and some may say, "well you obviously have a lot of $". I can assure everyone that I do not have a lot of money. What sets me apart is that I work my butt off, save everything I can, and buy only what I need (and happily, in this country, I define my needs). I do not envy the rich nor those whom have things I do not.

Andy, the bottom line is that I appreciate your willingness to take time out of your very busy schedule trying to make ends meet for your family to address one or two prospective customers. It shows how customer oriented you really are. :thumbup: But, we all have priorities and obligations--mortgage payments/rent, bills, tuition, health problems, etc., etc. Keep doing what you have been doing in the past and you will continue to be successful, hopefully even more so as time goes on. And to anyone expecting you to do something that compromises your ability to earn a living making knives, to put food on your table or clothes on your childrens' backs, I say, "Step up and be accountable for who you are and the choices you have made in life. If you want things you cannot afford, you might just have to get a different job or...*gasp*...even a second job. That's right, suck it up!"
 
Andy, in reference to an individual asking for price negotiation: One of your knives isn't a necessary item for any person. It is a luxury, a tool for those who wish to own and use something far beyond average and are capable of, and willing to, pay for it. Specialty skills are never cheap (or, at least, shouldn't be) and asking someone of considerable talent to lower their rate to accommodate the wishes, not needs, of another is an unfair request. I don't feel that your prices are even remotely unreasonable, and those that do have the freedom to look elsewhere. I'm confident that there are many like me who are willing to take their place in order to own a tool built to an extremely high standard, without bitching about having to pay a minor premium for something we don't need. Thanks for all the fine work. Take care.
 
Another issue these days may be the internet knife dealers who price their products the same way that jewelers price theirs on "sale." Street price is typically never going to be more than 80-85% of MSRP on any factory knife and is sometimes lower as the line between "distributors' and "online retailers" becomes more blurred and as the production knives become more expensive. I suspect that some folks think that custom makers are gilding the lily on pricing too. Sure, a custom maker might large dealer a 20-30% discount on doers, but that dealer is typically offer if some service to the maker that is arguably worth that "lost" revenue, be it promotion, exposure, time saved dealing with individual customers, etc. An individual knife buyer cannot offer such services so the "extra" sale is not worth the money because a custom maker can typically only made a specific number of knives and unless the are going unsold, thee is no benefit to giving them away.
 
Very interesting thread. I own and operate a successful martial arts/fitness business with prices higher than my competitors. I don't use contracts but I do my best to provide a fantastic product and the ultimate experience for my customers. That attention to detail and higher than expected customer service goes miles towards the word-of-mouth advertising that brings in new business. But, even yesterday, a prospect asked me to lower my prices. She tried class and loved it but, on reflection, decided that it was more than she could afford. I was kind and comforting and told her that as soon as my landlord cut my rent and if my staff would work for free I would lower my prices. And, in 20 years I have seen my competitors come and go. Long story short, you have a great product, Andy. I believe your prices are fair. Your support and customer service is top notch. Keep plugging away as long as you can and count me among your fans!
 
I think it is easy sometimes for people to get caught up in their hobby and forget that people are feeding their families.

For me buying a FB is a luxury. I can only afford to have 3 or 4 customs at one time due to the fact it IS a luxury. Would I like to buy FB's at 100.00 each? HELL YEAH!!! Would I seriously expect Andy to feed his family doing so? HELL NO!

I understand the want to be able to have more on a dwindling hobby budget. And I think Andy does as well- hence the base models. But it is important to remember that guys have to make a living as well.

I would not want to take a pay cut and I would not ask another guy to do so either.

Andy mentioned that the question was asked with respect so I am not ranting at the guy that asked. Just commenting that it is easy to lose sight of the fact that the other guy might be struggling as well.

Bill
 
mykel m said:
Andy,you do make a great knife & I have bought from you in the past,though only once but have owned 4 other FBFs I've gotten off the Ex.(Beautiful,functional knives all BTW & I still wear my FBF hat with pride)
I am also an American Vet & feel very strongly about buying American & I do whenever I can,but I gotta say that calling hobby makers underhanded is a bit much.
Didn't you start making & selling knives as a hobby yourself & were you being underhanded when you did?
I'm sorry to say I stopped buying your knives because I simply couldn't afford them on my wages.
I wish I could afford your knives but the plain facts are some of us can't & have to look elsewere to get our fixes.
I'm also sorry that you're struggling in this bad economy & hope for all our sakes that things pick up real soon.
Click to expand...

I came up making knives and pricing them based on the market and demand. It is hard for a new craftsman to price his work and I get that. I was honored to sell you a knife Mykel. I hope I haven't offended you. Folks like you are why I wish I could lower the prices. But unfortunately, I can't.
 
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