A Note On Prices

Before you factor in a craftsmans expertise, materials already cost money. I have been to a few makers shops. Whether you are renting or have a shop at home, you are still paying for space, space to keep your equipment, space to keep your materials. When I first joined here, I thought Ed Fowler must be a millionaire making these knives. Turns out he is a sheep rancher, with a rebuilt Ford pickup and makes knives in his spare time. I don't know how you guys do it that have gone full time, and I don't know how you guys do it that work a main job and make knives (some working a combined 80+ hours a week).
 
Shaerk said:
Andy,
Thanks for championing this cause. I have bought from you in the past and i fully agree that your prices are justified. Your quality is top notch and from what I see on the board you take customer satisfaction very serious. I also make knives and refuse to lowball my prices. I find it hard to sell knives on this forum when i post knives at what I feel is reasonable for my skillset only to find a similar knife for sale at half my price. I have more success selling knives from my facebook page. This is a tough business to break in to especially when some of the makers are practically giving their stuff away. I lost my paying job last year due to a merger and thought that I would give this a shot. Bad decision! Don't get me wrong, I love to make knives and didnt enter into this full time thinking that I would get rich. I just didnt fully appreciate the dynamics at play. I guess I'll keep on keepin on and who knows maybe things will improve. Keep up the excellent work!
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Make sure your knives have sex appeal. Name everything you do, even mistakes. Get a forum. Forums are the way to go.
 
When someone makes an offer for one of my knives, I am not offended. I appreciate the fact that they like one of them and are interested. If it is a knife that I do not wish to negotiate price over I thank them for their interest and simply decline.

Some of us were taught to negotiate price of anything from our time to something we wanted to buy, when in New York City it seems like it is a way of life.

Many years ago while at a NY City show a man picked up a knife on Friday and asked "if I would take xxxx for it?, considerably below what I was asking, he returned to my table several times during the next three days. Come Sunday I still had the knife he liked, he picked it up and admired it paying it several compliments and asked what I would take for her? I decided to have fun with it, I told him "Just pay me what you think the knife is worth."

He smiled, reached in his pocket and handed me a wad of bills. I smiled and thanked him and just put the cash in my pocket without counting it, we shook hands and he left with the knife.

Later that night I counted the money he had given me and it was over 20% more than the price I had on the knife!!

To this day I wonder if he really felt that was what the knife was worth or simply made a mistake.
 
The comment about Hobby Makers makes sense.

Sheath making is the same. If I charged what I make an hour at my 'real' job - well - it wouldn't be much of a hobby - and frankly I would likely never sell a sheath. However, because I make few of them and don't need to feed my family doing so - I can often offer a quality product at less than what my competition charges.

With that said - there are many advantages to using a more established businessman when buying product. They have much more accurate reproducibility (An Arete - for the most part - is an Arete - when I make a sheath - it is essentially a one off), they will likely be in business down the road if you have an issue - and so on.

I do love, however, getting to a maker when he is just cutting his teeth. Andy's price has certainly gone up - but I have seen his work lately. His quality has gone up much faster than his prices. I had some of Andy's earliest work. It was a great bargain - but considering the most recent Arete I saw just sold with a tapered tang, multiple types of materials in the handle, five pins of differing material, and his custom bullseye lanyard tube, not to mention awesome spalting and heat treat on the steel - with a grind that is spot on - come on. Look back at Andy's earlier work - it was no slouch - but it doesn't hold a candle to the machine he has become lately.

I am not actively buying Andy's work right now simply because I have what I want. I am VERY lucky. But that is the only reason.

TF
 
Big Mike said:
Yeah, the W&SS Forum was The Place back in the day.




Big Mike
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That is the truth Mike...

Shit - I remember reading Andy rehandling Old Hick knives... I laughed the other day because I JUST took on rehandling an Old Hick. Love that damned knife now... I can see why Andy and other makers get addicted.

TF
 
Big Mike said:
Yeah, the W&SS Forum was The Place back in the day.




Big Mike
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this board's w&ss? if so, i do wonder often what happened to the regulars like kgd, rick marchand, etc. i consider myself lucky i was able to hang out with rescueriley & tonym several times and learn from them first hand...most just seemed to stop posting on any knife/survival board it seems.
 
Forums trend in and out of folks lives. I stopped going because of time. When I started this forum, I just didn't have the time to hang out there.
 
I for one really hated to open this thread. First you have you made your crappy political views known to me, an otherwise neutral potential customer. You have your politics and i have mine and I dont want to hear yours and you dont want to hear mine. However if any company spouts them as you have I have to make buying decisions based on those stated views.
By the way unemployment is paid into by you employer to be used to get you by if you lose your job. It's not the taxpayer so you did us no favors. (Unless they were breaking the law and not paying into it)


Second you have put down quite a few decent makers because they may not feel the quality they produce is worthy of your prices or maybe they feel that's what their knives are worth at the early stages or maybe they truely don't know what they should charge or just simply don't feel they should make as much money off each knife as you do. You appear to me to be complaining about what I believe you problem cast your vote for come election time and I believe its called a free market in the greatest country in the world. Where we spend the most on health care and take the least care of our people. I pay $300 a month for what I consider extreme deductibles/copays myself. You should do what I plan to do and that's research what you can get in government insurance exchange. You'll probably be able to better as a self employed person than myself since my company offers an me an insurance plan.

You must really hate makers who do deals with Boker huh?

As for the audacity to negotiate on price-clearly you must pay sticker price for a car. The dealership should be as offended as you obviously are. Just politely tell the guy no and don't come crying like a asshole. I may be totally off on this but you don't appear to have a problem selling most anything you put up and I'm sure you would still have the same success even raising your prices. Your knives look great to me on here, in person at Blade and they review extremely well by respected outdoors people and regular users alike. I've just decided based on what you've posted here that you are not the maker for any purchases at any price. I will however find an upcoming $60 maker to support.
 
EEG said:
I for one really hated to open this thread. First you have you made your crappy political views known to me, an otherwise neutral potential customer. You have your politics and i have mine and I dont want to hear yours and you dont want to hear mine. However if any company spouts them as you have I have to make buying decisions based on those stated views.
By the way unemployment is paid into by you employer to be used to get you by if you lose your job. It's not the taxpayer so you did us no favors. (Unless they were breaking the law and not paying into it)


Second you have put down quite a few decent makers because they may not feel the quality they produce is worthy of your prices or maybe they feel that's what their knives are worth at the early stages or maybe they truely don't know what they should charge or just simply don't feel they should make as much money off each knife as you do. You appear to me to be complaining about what I believe you problem cast your vote for come election time and I believe its called a free market in the greatest country in the world. Where we spend the most on health care and take the least care of our people. I pay $300 a month for what I consider extreme deductibles/copays myself. You should do what I plan to do and that's research what you can get in government insurance exchange. You'll probably be able to better as a self employed person than myself since my company offers an me an insurance plan.

You must really hate makers who do deals with Boker huh?

As for the audacity to negotiate on price-clearly you must pay sticker price for a car. The dealership should be as offended as you obviously are. Just politely tell the guy no and don't come crying like a asshole. I may be totally off on this but you don't appear to have a problem selling most anything you put up and I'm sure you would still have the same success even raising your prices. Your knives look great to me on here, in person at Blade and they review extremely well by respected outdoors people and regular users alike. I've just decided based on what you've posted here that you are not the maker for any purchases at any price. I will however find an upcoming $60 maker to support.
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Wow, I wish you had just not opened the thread then. I don't like the personal attacks in your message. Please try to discuss the issues without the name calling while in my forum. I didn't intend to offend you with my post but I'm not going to take you ranting and berating me with schoolyard namecalling in my place. I gave you the first infraction I've ever given out at BF.

You are wrong about unemployment though as shown below. It comes through, and from the govt. The moneys the companies pay is nothing but a tax. Its not premiums. They just call it that. I am proud not to have accepted a dime of it, and I will say so on my forum if I damn well please. Let me come out and scream it from the mountaintop. I am a libertarian. I don't care if gays get married, or abortion is legal or illegal (although, I detest abortion). I want a small govt that stays out of my way. If you don't like it and it costs me your funds. So be it.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/unemployment_benefits_extension/index.htm

Taxpayers have footed $184.7 billion of the tab incurred during the federal government's unparalleled response to the Great Recession, according to Labor Department data. State and federal taxes on employers cover the rest
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Spend your $ as you see fit. Don't be suprised if the level of knives available to this industry suffers because of this trend though. Handmande knives shouldn't be cheap. They should be something you save for and are proud to own. Thats my opinion, and I have not and will not back down from it.

I don't know anything about the Boker situation you mention. Not interested in clarification, I just thought I'd address it.

My family's healthcare has tripled since Obama started his changes. And our coverage has shrunk from a PPO to a High Deductable with health savings account. Recently GA estimated that when Obamacare is rolled out, we will suffer another ~180% increase. Your insurance troubles are par for the course and I feel your pain here.

Just so you know, the customer that had asked for a discount, and me, we're doing fine. He is getting a knife as good as I can make it at the price I have to sell them for to keep this business afloat. Thanks for your concern.
 
EEG said:
I may be totally off on this....
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I agree with this statement from your post, but that's about it. If you don't like the price or the way Fiddleback Forge does things just don't buy their products. ;) :thumbup:
 
You know there are two ways to handle a discussion. With and without respect.

The gentlemen Andy referred to in his initial post obviously asked a question in a respectful manner, got an answer and went through with his purchase.

I once contacted Andy with a desire to try one of his knives but was short on funds and mentioned that I could wait and save but just wanted to ask if there was anyway we could work something out. Apparently I asked respectfully enough, as Andy made me an offer that worked out well for both of us.

I wish Andy's knives were priced low enough that I could afford to have a wide selection. The fact that I cannot afford to have so many is NOT IN ANY WAY Andy's fault and I would not expect him to change his business, or level of quality to match my financial budget.

There are makers that I would like to have knives from but cannot afford them, that is life. We can't have every toy that we want. I am grateful that I am able to have the ones that I do.

I have family whose entire monthly houshold budget is equal to one of Andy's knives. SO to have even one of his knives is a blessing and I am proud of it.

Bill
 
When I first read the title of this thread, I must say, it raised my eyebrows and I did gasp for air. I thought I was going to read something like- Do to the high demand of my knives, I will be raising my prices 35% for next 6 months. Prices will be re-evaluated at that time (I'll probably raise them again). But, that wasn't the case. What I took from it was a craftsman addressing an issue to the masses and stating his position the way he felt best.

I don't think he meant to put down hobby knife makers. IMO he was simply saying they are charging less than their work is worth in turn making it a lot harder for makers that make knives for a living. No insult or put downs there.

I'm an electrician and I get paid near the top of the pay scale. But I know when I leave a job, I've done my best to make sure- my work looks better, I moved faster, I wrenched longer and harder than my co-workers and above all, when I flip the switch, my light, motor, AC etc... turns on and stays on. My field is being flooded with people that are willing to do the job for literally half the pay. Even though I have many formal classes and training under my belt, an employer always sighs when I tell him my desired hourly wage. Why? It's simple. Why pay high for one good electrician when you get two mediocre sparkies for the same price. This has driven the wages too low for me to support my family. I love being an electrician, but the pay isn't enough anymore, so I've called it a wrap. I am fortunate enough to be able to go back to school and learn a different trade to help support my family.

With that rant, I completely understand, and can sympathize and empathize towards Andy's delimma. Even if I didn't, what he wrote was his actions, feelings and beliefs. Everybody has the right to disagree. But to start name calling, come on. Let's show some maturity here. The guy's in a tough spot. One I know all to well. I don't think the guy needs insults to his injuries. Don't kick a man when he's down, be a man and offer a hand to help him up

I got you Andy. Even if your prices rise, I'll still continue to support Fiddleback Forge. Do what you have to do brother.
 
I have never raised my prices more than 10%, and I can't see a reason that would ever be necessary. Don't let your heart be troubled my friend.
 
I never cease to be amazed by what people post. If I find something on these forums or others that I don't agree with, I just shake my head and move on because I'm not going to change someone's view through my post, nor do I want to.

I think the infraction was a good call Andy. I don't think you need to sell a knife to that guy anyway.
 
J. Oeser said:
I never cease to be amazed by what people post. If I find something on these forums or others that I don't agree with, I just shake my head and move on because I'm not going to change someone's view through my post, nor do I want to.

I think the infraction was a good call Andy. I don't think you need to sell a knife to that guy anyway.
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I agree. We dont always have to agree with one another... But we should always be respectful of one another.
 
My sig line is something my daddy used to say.......It reminds me of Andy Roy often.
 
I've been a lurker/admirer on Andy's forum since I saw some of his knives on the E2E channel on YouTube. I've yet to make a purchase, but I'm planning to in the future. I can see how certain people may be discouraged by Andy's price tags, but as others mentioned ahead of me, that is how supply and demand works. And as Andy has mentioned, he's stretched very thin with both his time and resources.

These numbers may be off, but I'd imagine they may be in the right order of magnitude:
- Andy puts out about 20 blades per week
- About 4.35 weeks per month
- Let's say the average revenue per knife is $250
- that makes the annual revenue of about $261k per year.

I don't know how much of that 261K is net income not including labor, but if you think about the fact that Andy pays two other people, I can't see Andy making 80 or even 70 grand a year. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but we know he works way over the standard 40 hours a week. I mean I wouldn't work that much for that kind of pay unless it's something I'm passionate about, and I'd say kudos to Andy and his team for doing it and providing excellent products to the customer base. This isn't to belittle those who are complaining about the prices, but it comes down to controlling one's own desires in my mind. If you can't afford it, look elsewhere, save, or just don't buy. It's not the end of the world; many people have done well with a 30 dollar Mora.
 
I sometimes do the math that way and get all starrey eyed. I haven't pulled 40K out of this business in a year yet. Its very expensive to make these knives. I spend $1800 a month on belts. I just signed the papers to make this an S corp, and I have to give myself a salary, etc. I have no idea what to pay myself.

Remember this thread isn't to complain about my job. I love my job. Its intention was to let y'all know why the prices are where they are and also that I am doing my best to keep them in the 'user' area.
 
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