A problem with Kizer...

Hackenslash

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Ok, to start with, I've been an active, vocal apologist for Kizer for a long time. I was one of the first people on Blade Forums talking about them, recommending their knives and sometimes defending them. At times I've referred to myself as the OKFB (Original Kizer Fan Boy). I'm stating this to clarify that I'm not a hater nor a Sinophobe.

Recently it came to my attention via social media that Kizer was directing people to their new web store to purchase their budget Tangram line of knives. That web store is at an on-line marketplace that will go unnamed other than I like to refer to it as "Liar-Express". This web site is infamous for selling, direct from China, more clones, counterfeits, knock-offs and homage knives than any other singe source in the Western world.

From the safety of VPN and a sand box I visited Liar-Express and found not only the shiny, new Tangram knife store portal but almost every other current production Kizer knife. I tried the same for WE, Reate, Bestech and a few other value import brands and they were not represented.

I'm really conflicted with this. From a free market sense, Kizer has a right to distribute their products via any means they choose. On the other hand, this seriously damages their credibility as an upright manufacturer and importer. Kizer has come a long way since the early days of the Britton/Tango kerfluffle and they seem to have flushed it all away by throwing in with the marketplace that distributes copies of knives made by some of the very designers that Kizer works with.

For now, I've put a complete halt on any Kizer purchases or recommendations.

I'm not trying to start a poop show but I'd like to hear what the rest of Blade Forums thinks and whether I need to change the way I'm viewing this massive error.

Also, anyone contemplating a Kizer purchase needs to be aware of this significant shift in their marketing plan.

Thanks in advance for being civil and respectful of all viewpoints.
 
I own one Kizer knife at this point and it is just fine. Bought it at one of the regular dealers mentioned here often.

I would probably not purchase via the "Liar Express" as I have no trust what so ever in websites such as this. Sort of like these emails you get offering credit and you never heard of them before....
 
I don’t own any Kizer knives. I view this move as a “guilty by association” move that will undoubtedly impact their products. To what degree, only time will tell.
 
Aliexpress is the Amazon of China to an extent. I see no problem with them selling their knives on that platform. The only issue would be, if they were selling their knives on that platform, for significantly less money than we pay for them in the United States.

If that was not the case, then it's irrelevant to me at least.
 
I'm not trying to start a poop show.
I thought this was for maximum splatter effect :rolleyes:

You seem extremely upset by this move from Kizer so there's probably not much I can say to change your mind. But like the other poster said Ali is the Amazon of China, they just don't crack down on clones as much as Amazon. But clones exist on Amazon aswell and theres many reputable American companies that sell on there.

They're obviously not targeting their western market by selling on Aliexpress, it wouldn't make sense. And as another poster pointed out in another thread the Kizers are priced the same on Ali as elsewhere.
 
It’s important to know that the site operates the way it does, not because scamming is the goal, but because it’s unregulated. The site continues to generate high traffic because many people do legitimate, satisfactory business through it.

What Kizer has done is establish a presence there that they can regulate. They won’t be participating in scamming or deceitful marketing.

If Kizer is opting to do legitimate business through an unregulated market, I see no problem with that. If they were to begin counterfeiting or stealing designs (Rike...), I would stop supporting them.
 
I own one Kizer knife at this point and it is just fine. Bought it at one of the regular dealers mentioned here often.

I would probably not purchase via the "Liar Express" as I have no trust what so ever in websites such as this. Sort of like these emails you get offering credit and you never heard of them before....
I don't know if Liar Express has a bad reliability record. I do know that they can ship to you for pennies and return shipping can be very expensive, so that needs to be considered.

The express is like the bay it’s not a store it’s a platform to sell. Kizer is likely just reaching out to the rest of the world.
Do you feel at all like Kizer could have made a better choice in a platform? How do they expect to work with a designer, Matt Cuchiara for example, when their distribution platform is the go-to place for clones of Matt's custom/mid-tech knives?
Aliexpress is the Amazon of China to an extent. I see no problem with them selling their knives on that platform. The only issue would be, if they were selling their knives on that platform, for significantly less money than we pay for them in the United States.

If that was not the case, then it's irrelevant to me at least.
As I mentioned above, shipments from China are subsidized by rates paid by domestic shippers. They can offer a knife for the same price as a Stateside vendor and still make considerably more netback. In short, Kizer is maximizing profit at the expense of legitimate knife sellers in the US and pocketing the difference. How are Blade Forums supporting sellers supposed to feel about this? You can return a knife to Knife Center for the same cost as they incurred to ship it to you. If you try to return that same Kizer to a Liar Express seller it will take $30-40 dollars while their shipping was pennies. This isn't an even playing field.

I'm not trying to let this thing go political, I'm just trying to clarify that the same posted selling price is not in any way equal.

I know on the surface this looks like a simple issue but I don't think it is.
 
I don't like it.

I know they are just trying to do business, but doing it on a platform that is notorious for ripping off the hard work of other knife makers seems kinda sleazy.

Seems like they would take a stand against that.

As someone passionate about knives and the folks who make them....Deal breaker for me.
 
It doesn't look to me that Kizer at Liar Express is priced the same as at a supporting vendor. This isn't comprehensive but I can get a Kizer Vanguard Laconico Intrepid on Liar Express for $49 and free shipping. BladeHQ has it for $86 plus a shipping charge. I'm not sure who said the prices where the same because they aren't.

The same $86 plus shipping at Knife Center, $79.95 plus shipping at GPKnives.
 
I thought this was for maximum splatter effect :rolleyes:

You seem extremely upset by this move from Kizer so there's probably not much I can say to change your mind. But like the other poster said Ali is the Amazon of China, they just don't crack down on clones as much as Amazon. But clones exist on Amazon aswell and theres many reputable American companies that sell on there.

They're obviously not targeting their western market by selling on Aliexpress, it wouldn't make sense. And as another poster pointed out in another thread the Kizers are priced the same on Ali as elsewhere.
I'm not sure how I'm coming across as extremely upset. I thought I was being fairly rational and impartial.

As another thought...if you buy a Kizer on Liar Express how can you even be sure you're getting a real Kizer?
 
Whether you appreciate their availability on a specific vendor or not seems like a bit of a minor overall quibble to have with a company like Kizer.

Especially since the vendor in question is the major domestic retailer for them.
 
Whether you appreciate their availability on a specific vendor or not seems like a bit of a minor overall quibble to have with a company like Kizer.

Especially since the vendor in question is the major domestic retailer for them.

We are people passionate about knives. 99% of what we talk about there could be considered a "minor quibble."

People here don't buy knives because their blades wiggle a little or the steel used for them is "last year's" or because they dislike the guy who made them.

We are here precisely because those "minor quibbles" matter to us.
 
Why? Perhaps to support market demand outside of the US? If so, really can't blame Kizer for making their products available globally.

They have been selling Tangram on A-zon since the line launched. The Santa Fe is sitting here on my desk right now. Very nice budget thumb stud flipper/slicer designed by Azo. No need to buy from the "Liar-Express" when it comes Prime.

Plus, there's a chance subsidized postal rates from China are going away. Time to front load the flashlights...

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Why? Perhaps to support market demand outside of the US? If so, really can't blame Kizer for making their products available globally.

They have been selling Tangram on A-zon since the line launched. The Santa Fe is sitting here on my desk right now. Very nice budget thumb stud flipper/slicer designed by Azo. No need to buy from the "Liar-Express" when it comes Prime.

And one could argue there is no need to associate ones product with them either, when that site is so notoriously destructive to the industry.

"It's just business" is not an excuse when it comes to knives for me. I'm too into them and there are too many other makers out there who do not need to make excuses for themselves.
 
I don't know anything about Ali Express, and will likely never visit there as i already have plenty of buying avenues. What would have been the better alternative platforms they could have utilized to reach the non-Western marketplace?
 
You buy it from their official account i'd assume.
I think they only have an "official" store for Tangram. The other Kizers are sold by various marketplace vendors with names like "KniveForSellYou".
 
And one could argue there is no need to associate ones product with them either, when that site is so notoriously destructive to the industry.

"It's just business" is not an excuse when it comes to knives for me. I'm too into them and there are too many other makers out there who do not need to make excuses for themselves.

That's fair, and I agree. Guilt by association is a real thing, and my personal policy includes no clones/knockoffs. My only point was why buy from the questionable source when the manufacturer is making it available already domestically?

And, if you're a global retailer why not leverage the existing on-line marketplace to get exposure for your product? It's obviously "just business" for Kizer and it's a personal decision if you hold them accountable.
 
That's fair, and I agree. Guilt by association is a real thing, and my personal policy includes no clones/knockoffs. My only point was why buy from the questionable source when the manufacturer is making it available already domestically?

And, if you're a global retailer why not leverage the existing on-line marketplace to get exposure for your product? It's obviously "just business" for Kizer and it's a personal decision if you hold them accountable.

I can't say what Hackenslash's original point is, but to me it's not "Should I buy my Kizer from Amazon" vs "Should I buy my Kizer from the other place."

It's "Why should I buy a Kizer at all, when they have associated themselves with a site so destructive to the knife industry as a whole??"
 
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