A problem with Kizer...

Wilsonhome said:
I don't know anything about Ali Express, and will likely never visit there as i already have plenty of buying avenues. What would have been the better alternative platforms they could have utilized to reach the non-Western marketplace?
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That IS a fair question.
 
Wilsonhome said:
I don't know anything about Ali Express, and will likely never visit there as i already have plenty of buying avenues. What would have been the better alternative platforms they could have utilized to reach the non-Western marketplace?
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Good question and point.

I think Hackenslash Hackenslash is right on regarding questioning the "ethics" of business.
 
Hackenslash said:
I think they only have an "official" store for Tangram. The other Kizers are sold by various marketplace vendors with names like "KniveForSellYou".
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How can Kizer control that..? Someones buying their products and posting them on there for sale. I could buy a bunch of any brand and sell them on there or any other marketplace if I felt so inclined.
 
marcinek said:
I can't say what Hackenslash's original point is, but to me it's not "Should I buy my Kizer from Amazon" vs "Should I buy my Kizer from the other place."

It's "Why should I buy a Kizer at all, when they have associated themselves with a site so destructive to the knife industry as a whole??"
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Agreed, and as a consumer you have that choice. More than a few knife companies have lost customers due to their business practices.

Kizer does great collaboration work with talented designers, American's included.
 
Eagle Scout said:
Agreed, and as a consumer you have that choice. More than a few knife companies have lost customers due to their business practices.

Kizer does great collaboration work with talented designers, American's included.
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They have collaborated with a personal favorite of mine, Justin Gingrich.

It's why I find their practice of associating with that particular site so upsetting.

It does not bring me pleasure. :mad:
 
FWIW I checked out the Kizers on there. There IS an official Kizer store where they sell their entire line of knives. But look at their reviews, the majority are in Russian, Portuguese and Spanish, and from those whose first language probably isn't English. This store isn't targeted at their western audience it appears. It looks like they're just making their product available to more people globally.
 
marcinek said:
They have collaborated with a personal favorite of mine, Justin Gingrich.

It's why I find their practice of associating with that particular site so upsetting.

It does not bring me pleasure. :mad:
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Understood, so justified. I picked up a Theta off the exchange here a few weeks back to try out something from Elijah Isham. Impressive.

Theta.jpg
 
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stonproject said:
FWIW I checked out the Kizers on there. There IS an official Kizer store where they sell their entire line of knives. But look at their reviews, the majority are in Russian, Portuguese and Spanish, and from those whose first language probably isn't English. This store isn't targeted at their western audience it appears. It looks like they're just making their product available to more people globally.
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Yes they are. And they are not doing it in a way that supports a site that screws the rest of the industry.

Not cool. But it's "just business" I guess.
 
Getting welded at the hip to the world’s largest marketing venue for every imaginable form of counterfeits, clones, copies and rip-offs puts the stink of death on Kizer in my book. They’ll sell a lot more of their products in the eastern hemisphere and their income. size and position in the global knife market will probably increase geometrically, but I believe that’ll happen without any increase in their western hemisphere base. I just bought a Kizer via the Exchange here and it’ll be my first, last and only Kizer. At least I know mine is a real one. Anybody who buys one from either head of the two-headed Ali snake will never know that for sure.

As a P.S..... Neither Amazon nor Ebay intentionally market counterfeits, clones, copies and rip-offs the way the Ali snake does. Saying that the Ali snake is “the Amazon of China” or “the Ebay of China” is incorrect. The Ali snake is by design the global haven of counterfeiters and cloners. Although a lot of copies and clones sneak through them, neither Amazon nor Ebay are playing that game on purpose.
 
This information doesn't really change my opinion of Kizer. In the universe of Chinese companies making (mostly) titanium framelock flippers on bearings, Kizer does not capture much of my interest or dollars compared to companies like Reate and WE.
 
Stumpy72 said:
Getting welded at the hip to the world’s largest marketing venue for every imaginable form of counterfeits, clones, copies and rip-offs puts the stink of death on Kizer in my book. They’ll sell a lot more of their products in the eastern hemisphere and their income. size and position in the global knife market will probably increase geometrically, but I believe that’ll happen without any increase in their western hemisphere base. I just bought a Kizer via the Exchange here and it’ll be my first, last and only Kizer. At least I know mine is a real one. Anybody who buys one from either head of the two-headed Ali snake will never know that for sure.

As a P.S..... Neither Amazon nor Ebay intentionally market counterfeits, clones, copies and rip-offs the way the Ali snake does. Saying that the Ali snake is “the Amazon of China” or “the Ebay of China” is incorrect. The Ali snake is by design the global haven of counterfeiters and cloners. Although a lot of copies and clones sneak through them, neither Amazon nor Ebay are playing that game on purpose.
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Cutlery is a pretty small industry, and its got a different culture to many other hobbies. The ali-group companies are rapidly pushing into the other other marketplaces lunch. It doesn't intentionally market any more counterfeits than amazon or ebay do, its just easier for companies based in the west to get those items taken down on the western stores. That being said, other markets, sunglasses, fragrances, clothing, electronics and others are way harder to regulate than knives, and they are really struggling to find a way to get ahead of it here. Are there aspects that make it easier to sell counterfeit goods in China in general? Yes there are, but to somehow say that it makes all selling from China based on theft is at best a spurious argument. Given what the Ali-group hopes to be, they have no interest in having fake stuff on their marketplace, but they are fighting an uphill battle as the regulations just don't support them as much as they could. A fake knife is one thing, what about fake baby formula, or fake medications? The fact that fakes are so common in china that there are fake fakes, should tell you something. Bottom line, Ali wants Jeff B's lunch, and knows its going to have to work really hard to get it. The fact that they use advantages that they can is just smart business, but selling fakes is not to their advantage, being able to abuse the international postal treaty is, but that is a different discussion.
 
Prices are lower at liar world because vendors here have map pricing and it keeps them in business. Some map pricing is way too high these days and sales have been up and down through the years, so that's possibly why.

I have bought Kizers from authorized Kizer dealers in the usa below map pricing before. Usually on a sale. Wayyyy cheaper than map pricing and more worth what I think they are worth as a knife. However dealers have to make a living.

I'd love to pay below map on spydercos and buy directly so I could afford more of them.

Liar world and now eBay and Amazon have ruined many markets because of clones. It's rather annoying. I hate clones and hate people who sell them as legit.
 
Hackenslash said:
I think they only have an "official" store for Tangram. The other Kizers are sold by various marketplace vendors with names like "KniveForSellYou".
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If it isn't officially from Kizer, then it is likely one of the many "OEM" sellers. You might get something legit for a little less, you likely will get garbage for a lot more (as garbage is worthless). I made this mistake buying a Vouking T03, wound up being counterfeit so I saved $20 and wanted $15 shipping it back and that money has been tied up for months. Never doing that again.
 
gadgetgeek said:
.....The ali-group ..... doesn't intentionally market any more counterfeits than amazon or ebay do ......
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1--Sorry about so heavily paraphrasing your post, but I didn’t take this thought out of context. That being said...
2--You need to do some in-depth research of the so-called “precious metals” offerings in both heads (“...Baba” and “...Express”) of the Ali snake. They proudly and loudly offer a stunning, extensive array of all kinds of counterfeit “precious metal” products like gold and silver coins and gold and silver bullion bars and rounds. They offer knockoffs of classical coinage purportedly from different nations (but currently made in China) as well as knockoffs of current coinage and bullion purportedly from different nations (but currently made in China). Some of those products are quite crude and as easy to detect as the proverbial elephant in the living room, but others are very well-crafted and surprisingly difficult to detect for even the best-trained eyes. The point however is that the Ali snake is the unarguably global home of precious metals counterfeits, forgeries, copies, clones and knockoffs and the bane of the precious metals world. I won’t even start in about clothing and fashion accessories.

The Ali snake is far more than just some kind of “hard-working competitor” trying to chip off a piece of the Bezos dreadnaught for themselves. It’s an intentional, immoral marketing monster that knowingly peddles bad merchandise. It is however a great shopping venue for anybody who’d like to buy some “silver” coins that are made of silver-plated tungsten or some classical “American Morgan silver dollars” that were made very recently in China.

Neither Amazon nor Ebay let fake/bad goods flow through their gates the way the Ali snake does.

And now... back to our regularly scheduled programming. IMO, affiliating their brand with the Ali snake will not help Kizer with knowing or discerning knife buyers in the western world. Sadly, I think it’ll make them richer and fatter than their wildest dreams ever gave them any hope of, but that doesn’t make it good or right from my perspective. I don’t patronize the Ali snake and as of now neither will I patronize Kizer any more--and to take it one step further--if WE makes a similar move, I’ll be done with them, too. End of early Saturday AM rant.
 
Won't buy from them. Why? There so many other routes to purchase.

The second possibility for an item being extremely cheap is that its either counterfeit, or fraudulent (or semi-fraudulent,. . China is known as a hotbed of counterfeit production, and liarExpress is no exception. You can get all sorts of counterfeit items there, from electronics to clothing. Some sellers have also been known to defraud buyers by tricking them into paying before they receive an item and then disappearing with the money
 
stonproject said:
FWIW I checked out the Kizers on there. There IS an official Kizer store where they sell their entire line of knives. But look at their reviews, the majority are in Russian, Portuguese and Spanish, and from those whose first language probably isn't English. This store isn't targeted at their western audience it appears. It looks like they're just making their product available to more people globally.
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Just like all the clones and counterfeits they sell. I'd bet they sell more of those to all other places combined compared to just the us. Doesn't make them any less scummy.
 
marcinek said:
They have collaborated with a personal favorite of mine, Justin Gingrich.

It's why I find their practice of associating with that particular site so upsetting.

It does not bring me pleasure. :mad:
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I wonder how all those respected designers feel about having their names plastered on that counterfeiting dealer?
 
I've never bought a kizer and now I never will. Looked at a few. Almost pulled the trigger. They were one of the first reasonably priced Chinese brands doing things the right way with good known materials. They built an excellent reputation. Now they've thrown that all away.
 
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