A really unusual 24 blade folder - has anybody ever seen one of these?

Very interesting and bizarre piece. Seems to be Taylor's Eye witness? Scratted scales? And then coined liners and all those blades....possibly an exhibition or apprentice's item?

Others know more, I know I'm interested.

Thanks, Will
I thought it was a Taylor’s but as you say its a bit over the top isn’t it. It needs a clean but I just don’t know. I thought it might have been a presentation piece for a calligrapher. I think steel knins came in in about 1820/30 and had an effect fairly quickly. Any thoughts by anybody really. I can get fairly boring about fruit knives and I coin some of my liners - the joy of the checkering file but I have no ideas about this it’s out of my field.
 
Yes very interesting and puzzling. A calligrapher's knife seems to make sense but why so many blades on one frame? Would make it rather clumsy to use when one small fixed blade or a small folding knife would be much more practical.

I believe you are correct about steel nibs appearing en masse in the early c19th and taking off quickly, Quills then becoming archaic or kept on by nostalgia.

The knife might be an exercise in cutler's whimsy - making an unusual and complex item to showcase skill or potential, or in fact connected to an extinct artisan trade or skill that has long vanished from use and memory? Here's some old Calligrapher's knives from Turkey.

 
No my dad did sometimes but mostly used the Robin Hood. Not really me, when not in the student bar at the poly I was usually in the black swan.
I had lunch in the Robin Hood with my daughter a few years back, she lives nearby. When I was a teenager, the pub was run by the dad of class mate of one of my pals. Unfortunately, that meant we couldn't go boozing in there! 😁
Ok, so the younger generation may mock our lack of tech-savvy, but we pulled it off - with an AOL email account, no less…

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Well done, that's incredible! 😎 I mentioned a knife that was on display at one of the Sheffield museums earlier. It was on display from when I was a kid to about 10 years ago. I don't think it is on display anymore unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure I have a photo. I'll find it out tomorrow (nearly midnight here) 👍
Thanks for that. I have never seen one of these before. Three blades are Brocken and there are 6 different blade profiles but if anybody has any ideas one this one please share.
no idea on the blade marks but all blades have half stops. This must have cost quite a bit in its time. When handling old knives like this you just wonder about the history don’t you.
Fantastic find 👍 There's the Taylor's Eye Witness stamp of course 👍
 
Bob Cargill (Cripple Creek) made barrel knives. I suspect it was a combination of a showcase of his skill, and because he enjoyed the challenge. Hopefully he made a little money too.
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Thanks for this, really interesting. I will try to find out something about him. I am assuming he is no longer around which is a pity as he would probably know something about this type of knife. Again many thanks.
 
Morning folks, I've been searching through my vast photo archive! Unfortunately, these photos were taken over a decade ago, and aren't very good.

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Sadly, and you may think bizarrely, Sheffield Museums, have, over the years, removed almost all the knives, from their huge archive from public display. They did have an online archive, with photos of some of the knives they hold in trust, and I know it contained better photos of this knife, as I posted a whole thread about the archive many years ago (sadly, sabotaged by BF software changes). However, that archive has been inaccessible for some time now :mad:

With access to that archive having been removed, I was unable to access information on the photograph posted above. Fortunately, I had posted an even older thread on Sheffield museum knives, and while the photos no longer display, the text is still there :rolleyes:

Penknife
Date Made/Found: around 1840
Manufacturer: Joseph Rodgers & Sons
Material and Medium: steel, brass, ivory

This multi bladed penknife was made by the firm Joseph Rodgers & Sons of Sheffield, around 1840. Joseph Rodgers & Sons was one of the largest and most prolific cutlery manufacturers based in the city. The company's famous star and Maltese cross mark was registered with the Company of Cutlers in 1764. By the end of the 1700s, the firm had established a factory on Norfolk Street. By the turn of the 1800s Joseph Rodgers & Sons was producing a vast range of goods. This included their famous penknives and pocket knives, as well as scissors, table cutlery and razors. In 1887 the firm began to manufacture its own high quality crucible and shear steel using iron imported from Sweden. This penknife has a total of sixteen short, folding blades. They are slender with pointed ends. Each blade is marked 'RODGERS'. Before the introduction of steel pen nibs, quills made from feathers were used for writing. Penknives were used to cut the quill to provide a perfect point for writing. The end of the feather was first cut to a point. A small, vertical nick was then cut into the very tip of the quill to enable the ink to flow evenly onto the page. Joseph Rodgers & Sons later developed an automatic quill cutter to make the preparation of quill pens simpler. These were made from brass and had a spring action. The end of the quill was placed into the cutter and the lever pressed down to cut it to shape in one step. However, a penknife was still required to cut the vertical slit into the point of the quill. This penknife is very elaborate and would have been used as a decorative as well as functional item. It would have been used at a desk alongside a wide range of writing equipment including an inkstand for storing ink, tapersticks and wax for sealing letters, and a box for holding stamps. The blades of this penknife are made from steel and the scales are made from ivory. The knife is unusual as it has four separate ivory scales, giving it a cylindrical shape. Most knives and razors have only two scales, one on each side of the handle. Joseph Rodgers & Sons used expensive imported materials for the manufacture of decorative hafts and scales. They bought mother of pearl from the Philippines, stag and buffalo horn from India and tropical woods from the West Indies. The firm also used vast quantities of ivory (elephant tusks) that was bought in bulk from traders in London, Antwerp and Liverpool. It is said that four or five men were employed by the firm to continuously saw ivory into small pieces for making handles.

Unfortunately, typically of Sheffield Museums, there isn't actually a great deal of information about the knife itself :(

I have some more books, which may contain a photo of the knife :thumbsup:
 
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Ok, so the younger generation may mock our lack of tech-savvy, but we pulled it off - with an AOL email account, no less…

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kpDIW8Q.jpg


oqjAQOs.jpg


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auf7eZu.jpg


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Just bringing these photos forward. You have a fascinating knife there, with some age to it. I would say, you have one of John Taylor's original knives, based on the tang-stamp, but we need to work out the significance of the other marks. I'll try and put in some more work later :thumbsup:

John Taylor was originally situated in St Philip's Rd (1828), and specialised in pen, pocket, and sportsman's knives. His mark, featuring the all-seeing 'Eye of Providence', was granted in 1838. Unfortunately, he died in 1854, aged 61. The business was subsequently acquired by cutler-shopkeeper, Thomas Brown Needham, who had married Taylor's daughter apparently (source: Geoff Tweedale). Needham manufactured under his own name, but used the 'Eye Witness' mark. After he died in 1870, the business passed to one of Needham's associates, James Veall. Walter Tyzack (of the Sheffield Tyzack dynasty) joined the business in 1879. After this, as still today, it was known as Needham, Veall, and Tyzack. A full history of the firms runs to 2 pages in Tweedale.
 
Dave, if it's not too much much trouble, would you mind going through the blades of the knife, and list them numerically, from 1 to 24, listing what you can read on the tang stamp, or if you can't read anything? Even better if you can post a photo of each :thumbsup:

I can think of several reasons why the blades contain different stamps:

1) The blades were made by another cutler or cutlers, and either 'inherited' (with a workshop for example), or bought in, either specifically for this knife, or as a 'job lot'.
2) The knife was made by another cutler.
3) The knife was made for a factor, and the other stamps relate to his business.
4) The marks were used by John Taylor prior to him acquiring his Eye Witness stamp.
5) Cutlers very often registered 'secondary' marks, in addition to their name/name of their business, 'Depend', 'IXL', etc. Edit - in this case, they included '1000', 'ONWARD', and 'LIBERTY'.
6) The knife was repaired.
7) It was made up by a Little Mester using parts he already had.
 
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Rises the challenge of finding the right blade/tool to another level.
 
Quoting Levine (IV, page 261):

In the 1820's James Crawshaw of Sheffield, the inventor of lobster pen knives, also invented "quadrangular" (four-cornered) quill knives. These are shaped like a needle-case or a miniature cigar. In its simplest form this knife has eight tiny blades, four in each end, one every 90 degrees. This pattern was also made with two, three, four...up to 12 blades in each position, yielding a knife with 16. 24, 32...up to 96 tiny blades. They usually have ivory handles, but I have seen a few with checkered and pique (pin-worked) pearl.
 
Morning folks, I've been searching through my vast photo archive! Unfortunately, these photos were taken over a decade ago, and aren't very good.

3RBTcYI.jpg


xl11JAU.jpg


Sadly, and you may think bizarrely, Sheffield Museums, have, over the years, removed almost all the knives, from their huge archive from public display. They did have an online archive, with photos of some of the knives they hold in trust, and I know it contained better photos of this knife, as I posted a whole thread about the archive many years ago (sadly, sabotaged by BF software changes). However, that archive has been inaccessible for some time now :mad:

With access to that archive having been removed, I was unable to access information on the photograph posted above. Fortunately, I had posted an even older thread on Sheffield museum knives, and while the photos no longer display, the text is still there :rolleyes:



Unfortunately, typically of Sheffield Museums, there isn't actually a great deal of information about the knife itself :(

I have some more books, which may contain a photo of the knife :thumbsup:
Thanks for this, I now know more than I did.I would love to see any more photos you have. I would also like your opinion on the makers markings on my knife If you have any.
There are three types of markings not on all blades which I now know are the most used quill blade shapes used around the time - I recon 1820-1840ish.
Do you have any connections with Sheffield museums? Specifically with the curator dealing with the knife collection ?
Another of my interests means that I get on quite well with Angus Paterson the Senior curator of metal ware at the V&A.
Angus seems to know everybody and as he still owes me a couple of favours I don’t see why a digital archive (I think I know how it was funded) if produced and intact is not/has not been put back up.
I for one would like acess because it a valuable academic reference source not just for me but fjord a lot of other people around the world.
There is actually funding available to do it at the moment and it should be a fairly easy (and cheap) job to find if the archive is intact.
 
Thanks for this, really interesting. I will try to find out something about him. I am assuming he is no longer around which is a pity as he would probably know something about this type of knife. Again many thanks.
You're welcome. I'm a fan of his knives :thumbsup: I don't know if Mr. Cargill is still alive or not. He'd be around 80.
 
I am not a typical traditional knife fan, but that is something really special. I really like it 🙂

Thank you for showing it, and thanks guys for having such an amazing knowledge of knives!

I have learned quite a bit reading this thread, and if my life brings me again over to the UK, I make sure to stop in Sheffield!
 
Thanks for this, I now know more than I did.I would love to see any more photos you have. I would also like your opinion on the makers markings on my knife If you have any.
There are three types of markings not on all blades which I now know are the most used quill blade shapes used around the time
Further to what I've already said, would it be possible for you to photograph them all, and list all the stamps, noting the blades which aren't stamped?
Do you have any connections with Sheffield museums? Specifically with the curator dealing with the knife collection ?
Another of my interests means that I get on quite well with Angus Paterson the Senior curator of metal ware at the V&A.
Angus seems to know everybody and as he still owes me a couple of favours I don’t see why a digital archive (I think I know how it was funded) if produced and intact is not/has not been put back up.
I for one would like acess because it a valuable academic reference source not just for me but fjord a lot of other people around the world.
There is actually funding available to do it at the moment and it should be a fairly easy (and cheap) job to find if the archive is intact.
Not for the past few years. I assume the archive is still there, just taken offline, but it has been like that for a couple of years at least. Most of the photos were taken by Sheffield Museums, but the archive included a number taken by Geoff Tweedale, of knives in his personal collection. I have no idea why the number of knives, on public display, has declined to such a low level. A number of members of this forum have visited Sheffield, to view the knives in the museums, and their absence is an embarrassment, frankly, and inexplicable in a city built on cutlery. Stan Shaw was very upset when they stuck a number of his knives back in the storage :(
Jack amazing knives and history! 👍
Thanks :)
 
Ok, so the younger generation may mock our lack of tech-savvy, but we pulled it off - with an AOL email account, no less…

uTStK0W.jpg


VrylTLp.jpg


MYaeQO8.jpg


kpDIW8Q.jpg


oqjAQOs.jpg


7QS9AaQ.jpg


auf7eZu.jpg


DOk9ESA.jpg


UiqtSmc.jpg


2rjBhJS.jpg
That's so awesome, well done on rescuing it! What a bit of old kit it is. The backspring arrangement and general check-me-outness says exhibition and the scratted ivory makes it.
As you say, the stories it could tell...

A few of the blades especially "ford" and "barb" make me guess that knife was made by BARBour Silver Company, HartFORD, Connecticut 1892 to 1899.
My guess being the Taylor Eye witness being a replacement or a factored blade (?) That's the weird bit as on the wrong side of the pond but there you (may) have it.
I suppose its possible it stated off in Sheffield as a Taylor Eye
Witness And travelled to the new world and had broken blades replaced in Connecticut.

Tell us more about it, was there any indication of back story to it from the seller?
 
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