A small question about the term "Turkish Clip point" or "California clip point"

neal70 said:
Jake-round and round it goes. Many of the Khyber knives were made, to the best of my understanding, from captured British Calvary,and other units, sabres. Then ground down to a very strong T cross section. Perhaps they kept the curve or clip on the end, well reproduced it, for fighting functionality. Idk. And we would be talking a span of time covering at least 400 years or more. Simply a thought on where the Turks might have encountered said clip. And on a fixed blade it might have aided armor penetration. Pure speculation though.
Thanks, Neal
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I think Khyber knives were mainly made in Afghan or other Persian-speaking area not Turkey.And I remember that a large number of Khyber knives are straight,there are a lot of them are recurve too but the line of their spines are quite smooth,I think that is not clips point.


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Happy New Year everyone.

I have seen a lot of the term Turkish Clip, Californian Clip on the Fixed Blades,
Some examples shown ( in my opinion ) with a Traditional slip joint and the spine taking a downward slope from the tang is not what I call a Turkish Clip - a true Turkish Clip is a straight Spine that ( around) halfway along, the Spine ( not the edge ) then re-curves deeply and log towards the Tip.

I used to have several examples of great Turkish Clip Points -but I have sold most of my fixed blades over the years and obtain just a small handful now that Traditional Pocket knives have swamped my world.

Here is a link from A. J.Russel who give us a good pictorial for the shapes of blades...
https://agrussell.com/encyclopedia/blade-shapes

This image here doesnt represent a Turkish Clip shape - although the Cammy at the bottom of the photo would represent more of a Californian Clip touches near the neighbourhood - but is not any of the op's Shape in question, and the Top Fixed Blade Spine curves right from the Tang to the tip - so definitely not a Californian or Turkish Clip.... but a good comparison of the middle knife which is a Clip - compared to the more curved Clip ( A.J. Russel calls a long clip )at the bottom.


Here is a good example of a Turkish Clip Point.......Note the beginning of the recurve halfway down the Spine - which takes a deep curve right to the tip.......


Californian - not so long - almost an imbetween?


Here is a Genuine Bowie Knife- Theres a lot of talk about what is a true Bowie, but in fact the Bowies that were carried were quite often a very light knife - Bernard Levine checked this knife out to what I suspected it to be, this is a 1850's Sheffield Knife made for the American Civil Market with a deep etchof the eEagle and "Home of the Brave" etch - this would be your more Californian Clip - Although on this knife its becoming a bit "stretched" in length.


This is the photo I was after, this is a Vintage Solingen Olsen, this is actually quite a hard knife to find, the smaller 10 inch version can be found at rare times - but this 13 inch version is extremely hard to find, I have only seen one other, The thing that makes this knife stand out than most of the other 1950 and 1960's Solingen Knives is that this is one of the few true Turkish Clips from Factory - dont confuse the well known "Original Buffallo Skinner" as a Turkish clip - thats a curved Skinner period.
I think this knife is pretty darned cool!


The only difference between a Californian Clip Blade and a Turkish is that Turkish is longer, This Sheffield Eye witness beauty is what I deem as a Califorinan Clip point more than a Turkish - because it is not a straight angle off the Spine, has a nice curvature and is slightly longer than your standard Clip Point.

Just my view, one that was shared a while ago in the fixed blade world - I look back and laugh as my friend Rick - who has an extensive Collection of extremely good knives - would often buy some knives earlier on - then get me to post them in Bernards Forum - and Iof course would ask questions - well.... I used to walk out of there with the skin lashed off my back at times lol
 
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Campbellclanman said:
Happy New Year everyone.

I have seen a lot of the term Turkish Clip, Californian Clip on the Fixed Blades,
Some examples shown ( in my opinion ) with a Traditional slip joint and the spine taking a downward slope from the tang is not what I call a Turkish Clip - a true Turkish Clip is a straight Spine that ( around) halfway along, the Spine ( not the edge ) then re-curves deeply and log towards the Tip.

I used to have several examples of great Turkish Clip Points -but I have sold most of my fixed blades over the years and obtain just a small handful now that Traditional Pocket knives have swamped my world.

Here is a link from A. J.Russel who give us a good pictorial for the shapes of blades...
https://agrussell.com/encyclopedia/blade-shapes

This image here doesnt represent a Turkish Clip shape - although the Cammy at the bottom of the photo would represent more of a Californian Clip touches near the neighbourhood - but is not any of the op's Shape in question, and the Top Fixed Blade Spine curves right from the Tang to the tip - so definitely not a Californian or Turkish Clip.... but a good comparison of the middle knife which is a Clip - compared to the more curved Clip ( A.J. Russel calls a long clip )at the bottom.


Here is a good example of a Turkish Clip Point.......Note the beginning of the recurve halfway down the Spine - which takes a deep curve right to the tip.......


Californian - not so long - almost an imbetween?


Here is a Genuine Bowie Knife- Theres a lot of talk about what is a true Bowie, but in fact the Bowies that were carried were quite often a very light knife - Bernard Levine checked this knife out to what I suspected it to be, this is a 1850's Sheffield Knife made for the American Civil Market with a deep etchof the eEagle and "Home of the Brave" etch - this would be your more Californian Clip - Although on this knife its becoming a bit "stretched" in length.


This is the photo I was after, this is a Vintage Solingen Olsen, this is actually quite a hard knife to find, the smaller 10 inch version can be found at rare times - but this 13 inch version is extremely hard to find, I have only seen one other, The thing that makes this knife stand out than most of the other 1950 and 1960's Solingen Knives is that this is one of the few true Turkish Clips from Factory - dont confuse the well known "Original Buffallo Skinner" as a Turkish clip - thats a curved Skinner period.
I think this knife is pretty darned cool!


The only difference between a Californian Clip Blade and a Turkish is that Turkish is longer, This Sheffield Eye witness beauty is what I deem as a Califorinan Clip point more than a Turkish - because it is not a straight angle off the Spine, has a nice curvature and is slightly longer than your standard Clip Point.

Just my view, one that was shared a while ago in the fixed blade world - I look back and laugh as my friend Rick - who has an extensive Collection of extremely good knives - would often buy some knives earlier on - then get me to post them in Bernards Forum - and Iof course would ask questions - well.... I used to walk out of there with the skin lashed off my back at times lol
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Well that confused me a lot.Now I don't really know what is Turkish clip or California clip now because what you show are quite different from other typical Turkish clip point(At least what I believe[emoji3]) I have seem.[emoji23]So I have a few questions 1 According your opinion,there are some pictures I show in #4, which of them have Turkish clip point? 2 I understand that maybe some fixed blade would have a point that similar to typical "Turkish Clip point" traditional folder but what I really want to know is that the term "Turkish clip point" have been used to describe other types of knife or not. It is more about the use of words.If any sources did describe fixed blade by using this term I wish to see the sources(Just to be sure).


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I know what you mean, Turkish Clip Point - again from my point of view is a long ( longer than a Californian Clip ) curved spine that starts at least Halfway or more from the centre of the Spine- right to the tip.

the Californian Clip has a shorter curved Spine towards the tip.

Like everything it seems in the knife world there are so many variations - and there's not one pattern that really has a universal agreement, but at least you can identify in what Family shape the pattern or shape may be.

Your question you are asking - to which photo? In my opinion the Turkish Clip Points are in Photo's 2 and 5, and yet there are variances between those- the photo # 2 has a slightly more deeper curve to it that the Solingen - yet both are Turkish Clip points, but you will have many who will agree and many who wont.

If you try to compare Sword terms with Knife terms - the Turkish Sword is one big Curvature - and again theres SO many variations among the Turkish Swords as well- if that doesn't confuse things more so.

But lets look at it this way...Turkish CLIP - which means the clip - ( Clip being the front part of the Blade )NOT the whole knife - so in the Turkish styling - it will have a nice sweeping curve - and only halfway along the Spine - Hence the complete name Turkish CLIP POINT.
 
Aha! Found a chart that shows you instead of me trying to explain myself- as at times I dont often do that too well....
Note on the left - 3rd down is a regular Californian Clip Point, directly underneath ( 4th down )that shows the Turkish Clip Point..

 
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Campbellclanman said:
I know what you mean, Turkish Clip Point - again from my point of view is a long ( longer than a Californian Clip ) curved spine that starts at least Halfway or more from the centre of the Spine- right to the tip.

the Californian Clip has a shorter curved Spine towards the tip.

Like everything it seems in the knife world there are so many variations - and there's not one pattern that really has a universal agreement, but at least you can identify in what Family shape the pattern or shape may be.

Your question you are asking - to which photo? In my opinion the Turkish Clip Points are in Photo's 2 and 5, and yet there are variances between those- the photo # 2 has a slightly more deeper curve to it that the Solingen - yet both are Turkish Clip points, but you will have many who will agree and many who wont.

If you try to compare Sword terms with Knife terms - the Turkish Sword is one big Curvature - and again theres SO many variations among the Turkish Swords as well- if that doesn't confuse things more so.

But lets look at it this way...Turkish CLIP - which means the clip - ( Clip being the front part of the Blade )NOT the whole knife - so in the Turkish styling - it will have a nice sweeping curve - and only halfway along the Spine - Hence the complete name Turkish CLIP POINT.
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I know what you mean but still have question.Because I didn't see the terminology of those is used to describe other type of knife in official sources (Famous Manufactory's guild,book or website like AG Russel) instead of some personal category.I think it is not just about the point because it related to the proportions of the "clip".In AG Russel you show says that "The Turkish Clip or Yatagan Clip has a very long clip and a deeply swayed edge." So if we don't concern about the entire blade length,the "very long" will be meaningless when judge knives with different sizes.And is the term first appear in Remington Cutlery guild?I wonder if the terms originally create to describe blade of pocket knives(If so,there is confusion no more🤣)And seems you have a different standard from AG Russel because it says CLIP BLADE, CALIFORNIA CLIP
The clip is even longer than the Turkish clip, it starts just in front of the tang.) So is the problem that everyone has their own category and there is no general agreement???


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Campbellclanman said:
Aha! Found a chart that shows you instead of me trying to explain myself- as at times I dont often do that too well....
Note on the left - 3rd down is a regular Californian Clip Point, directly underneath ( 4th down )that shows the Turkish Clip Point..

Click to expand...

I saw but it seems still kind of personal category [emoji2].I am still trying to let thing make sense because what you had told me is quite different from earlier discussion and sources I have seem.I still have quite a lot confusion.[emoji23]


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Campbellclanman said:
I know what you mean, Turkish Clip Point - again from my point of view is a long ( longer than a Californian Clip ) curved spine that starts at least Halfway or more from the centre of the Spine- right to the tip.

the Californian Clip has a shorter curved Spine towards the tip.

Like everything it seems in the knife world there are so many variations - and there's not one pattern that really has a universal agreement, but at least you can identify in what Family shape the pattern or shape may be.

Your question you are asking - to which photo? In my opinion the Turkish Clip Points are in Photo's 2 and 5, and yet there are variances between those- the photo # 2 has a slightly more deeper curve to it that the Solingen - yet both are Turkish Clip points, but you will have many who will agree and many who wont.

If you try to compare Sword terms with Knife terms - the Turkish Sword is one big Curvature - and again theres SO many variations among the Turkish Swords as well- if that doesn't confuse things more so.

But lets look at it this way...Turkish CLIP - which means the clip - ( Clip being the front part of the Blade )NOT the whole knife - so in the Turkish styling - it will have a nice sweeping curve - and only halfway along the Spine - Hence the complete name Turkish CLIP POINT.
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One more thing,the picture of Turkish clip shows in AG Russel or Remington make sense because they do looks like Yatagan (Google more pictures of them!) And I still don't think it is good to use terms of pocket knives to call other types of knives.Would you like to say fixed blade have a "saber clip"or "B clip"?


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The one thing you can be sure of is they are clip blades. :)

I read somewhere that California Clip was made up as a marketing distinction. But that doesn't mean it's not real now :)

Although I provided the link, as was pointed out the AGR website is not always accurate. Which is to be expected, given its nature. However Levine's last guide was k the product of a lot of review and input by multiple people, so it kind of represents a consensus from 30 years ago.
 
Good points my friend, I too saw A.J.Russell's account of the Californian Clip - and this is a perfect example of how we all have different interpretations of terminologies, as you say - A.J.Russell's account completely goes against what I say about the Californian clip - because he says its even longer than the Turkish clip - I can honestly say that in all accounts of dealing with Fixed Blades - the Turkish Clip was always the longer sleeker more curved spine and the Californian clip's bussines was always in the forefront.

So, I can only go back to where the name states its exact position - clip - is the front of the blade, and Turkish or Californian is the style, Turk as we know have a long sweeping curve- whenever I have seen "Californian" Bowies - the clip is very much like the drawn Chart I showed...... so lets leave that here -and go back to the history of Sheffield and Solingen knives- before America could produce their own...

The rivalry between competing companies where such famous names such as I*XL (I excel all competition ), OVB, XL ALL etc, all those wee stabs that companies took to make theirs the best, I dont think that you will ever get a definite answer to what you are looking for and that is exactly what is a Turkish, Califronian clip.

I look at it the basic manufacture blade blank way - so to speak, Clip= front of Blade - Turkish - we all know that it has a famously curved nature to it - Turkish Clip together= what I am saying.

I am only putting forward point of notice and what has been repeated way before I came on the scene - so I can't offer any more- hence me being very careful to state that this was only my opinion -and this derives from me owning quite a few hundred Fixed blades - but that only comes down to again - my opinion, and whats been put to me by the description be it personal or manufactured name of whatever knife I was buying - it was only THEIR name for the knife.
I dont think that there will be a definite answer other than from a "personal" one, because personal means the manufacture of a knife in a certain area at a certain time will call the knife what it wants for maximum marketing - and this has been done since day dot.

Lol - Im so sorry that I put a Spanner in the works, because not only I but other charts put forward a different opinion, you can only take from that what you want.
I hope I havent come across as being know all - because I am only beginning - love talking knives - aloud, and trying to involve mysel in discussions such as these, and apologise if I have taken the discussion of course :D
 
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Campbellclanman said:
Good points my friend, I too saw A.J.Russell's account of the Californian Clip - and this is a perfect example of how we all have different interpretations of terminologies, as you say - A.J.Russell's account completely goes against what I say about the Californian clip - because he says its even longer than the Turkish clip - I can honestly say that in all accounts of dealing with Fixed Blades - the Turkish Clip was always the longer sleeker more curved spine and the Californian clip's bussines was always in the forefront.

So, I can only go back to where the name states its exact position - clip - is the front of the blade, and Turkish or Californian is the style, Turk as we know have a long sweeping curve- whenever I have seen "Californian" Bowies - the clip is very much like the drawn Chart I showed...... so lets leave that here -and go back to the history of Sheffield and Solingen knives- before America could produce their own...

The rivalry between competing companies where such famous names such as I*XL (I excel all competition ), OVB, XL ALL etc, all those wee stabs that companies took to make theirs the best, I dont think that you will ever get a definite answer to what you are looking for and that is exactly what is a Turkish, Califronian clip.

I look at it the basic manufacture blade blank way - so to speak, Clip= front of Blade - Turkish - we all know that it has a famously curved nature to it - Turkish Clip together= what I am saying.

I am only putting forward point of notice and what has been repeated way before I came on the scene - so I can't offer any more- hence me being very careful to state that this was only my opinion -and this derives from me owning quite a few hundred Fixed blades - but that only comes down to again - my opinion, and whats been put to me by the description be it personal or manufactured name of whatever knife I was buying - it was only THEIR name for the knife.
I dont think that there will be a definite answer other than from a "personal" one, because personal means the manufacture of a knife in a certain area at a certain time will call the knife what it wants for maximum marketing - and this has been done since day dot.

Lol - Im so sorry that I put a Spanner in the works, because not only I but other charts put forward a different opinion, you can only take from that what you want.
I hope I havent come across as being know all - because I am only beginning - love talking knives - aloud, and trying to involve mysel in discussions such as these, and apologise if I have taken the discussion of course :D
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Thanks for your reply.[emoji2]It is always good to see someone has his own opinion.Juts have 2 more little questions 1 I don't understand when you explain the word Turk,what you mean 2 Is there really some manufacturers called their fixed blade have a Turkish clip point? If so, could you please show the picture of source? And in the end,I still state my opinion,I think the term Turkish clip(Muskrat clip)or California clip are not a type of clip for all kinds of knives, but a name for a type of blade of pocket knives.For fixed blades or other folders,I will just call them clip point like most of people[emoji3]


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major_works said:
What would one call the clip blade on a current-production Case medium stockman? California, Turkish, or neither?
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Case has two different styles of clip blade on the medium stockman. I would say one is more of a traditional clip and one is definitely more of a Turkish clip. I like the traditional clip personally. The Turkish version has a sleek look when the knife is closed, but I really don't like it when opened. Looks too delicate to me...
 
^^^^ My yellow Delrin med. stockman in CV has the long, slender clip. I know what you mean about looking delicate, but I like the shape personally. Thanks for your response!
 
Campbellclanman said:
Here is a Genuine Bowie Knife- Theres a lot of talk about what is a true Bowie, but in fact the Bowies that were carried were quite often a very light knife - Bernard Levine checked this knife out to what I suspected it to be, this is a 1850's Sheffield Knife made for the American Civil Market with a deep etchof the eEagle and "Home of the Brave" etch - this would be your more Californian Clip - Although on this knife its becoming a bit "stretched" in length.
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Beautiful knife, Duncan!

 
major_works said:
^^^^ My yellow Delrin med. stockman in CV has the long, slender clip. I know what you mean about looking delicate, but I like the shape personally. Thanks for your response!
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No problem :thumbup: I usually go for the other style clip on the medium stockmans I get, but some of the scales I like only come with the Turkish style, so I reckon I'll give in and try one someday...
 
Called a California Toothpick. Made by Camillus for Buck, sold by SMKWs. Folders made in house by Buck will have a date code on tang after 1985. Not those ordered thru Buck , made by Camillus and sold only by SMKWs.





300Bucks
 
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Interesting posts Duncan :thumbup:

Campbellclanman said:
I look back and laugh as my friend Rick - who has an extensive Collection of extremely good knives - would often buy some knives earlier on - then get me to post them in Bernards Forum - and I of course would ask questions - well.... I used to walk out of there with the skin lashed off my back at times lol
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LOL! :D Doh! :eek: :D :thumbup:
 
I cant really answer any more because we in the knife world use terminologies that identify a particular knife, if for example I was to explain a clip point knife I bought to my friend, and then said Turkish clip- he would idenify what I am talking about immediately.
These days manufacturers simply call them skinners, Hunter etc.

Early period U,S,A - the gold Rush days Sheffield made such knives called the California Bowie - now there are genuine examples of this knife - but I can guarantee that there were several knives called this from several different Manufacturers- and they would have variants of Clips, length of Blade etc- so in the day itself - there would have been big variances - the name simply because of Marketing - as to what was taking America by storm at that time - so you can bet that the Sheffield Knife companies aimed for that - I would suspect that this is where the Californian Clip term came from, (you will find examples of these Bowies in any Historic Bowie knife book ).
In saying this- the Manufacturer themselves probably didnt call the Clip a Californian clip.... so it just comes down to historic use of the terms, and I am not too sure if you will ever pin down the exact beginning of these terms.
 
Jack Black said:
Interesting posts Duncan :thumbup:



LOL! :D Doh! :eek: :D :thumbup:
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Thanks Jack
Its only opinion - now you would have a good view- although I was amazed to see you post that you had never heard of the term Turkish Clip etc on a Fixed Blade- yet I had heard that many-a-time.
Please dont get me wrong Jack, I dont think there is actually a wrong or right on this topic because persoanl use terms can be repeated and almost become law...we have seen this when we discuss similar topics in the Barlow Thread etc.

Anyway...I can, and only have added what I have experienced in the fixed blade world, - repeat what has been said to me by authoritative people- or people who know a hell of a lot more than me.
The interesting thing is - you could ask Bernard Levine this Question - and he could say- either yes or no on a certain name of a Clip - but that doesnt stop the greater percentage of the knife world using what ( for example ) Bernard Levine says is wrong - so who is actually right or wrong?

Dictionaries now add new words in every year - simply because of people using slangs or different terminologies- used so much that the dictionaries have to add them .... I think this is what LunarShadowWolf is trying to nail down.

As we have seen there are differences - almost clashes of opinions in what these terms mean ( in their view ) - I think that one can only accept this.

I just simply think that there are terms used, and I identify with them as others do - and I am happy with that.
 
BRL doesn't post much now and I miss his insight and humor. He might say something like "names weren't written on stone tablets" :D That paraphrases something that he said a while back... about pattern names if I recall correctly.

Some of the terms were "terms of art", a word or phrase that has a precise, specialized meaning within a particular field or profession. Not every manufacturer is interested in history and some may not know it at all. Some traditional knife collectors also aren't interested in history at all even though it is the history that makes them traditional. Manufacturers use new marketing and that replaces the old... like "sowbelly" or "peanut".
 
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