A Topic for Actual Discussion

The Virginian said:
I do find it somewhat incongruous that you seem to feel unencumbered in criticizing my thread, but you do not apparently share the same enthusiasm for anyone being critical on threads you start.

Best regards.
Click to expand...

There's a huge disconnect here. You seem to be taking personal offense when none is intended. I am being critical of the thread (lotsa comments there), not you. You are way off base. And if you carefully inspect my thread, you will find, nowhere, that I was ever critical of any comment made about the knife, so I had no thought about positive or negative opinion, and any thought by others that such was the case, WRONG.

So, back to my contention that too much has already been written on this topic.
 
Back when i joined this august forum in 2005 or 2006, the general consensus was that if you wanted warm fuzzies and encouragement as a knife maker, you posted in Shop Talk. If you wanted brutally honest critique, you posted here. i am okay with that. I received the same warning about showing my newbie knife maker work to ABS master smiths when I was told to be careful to ask questions like "how am I doing so far" as opposed to "what do you think about this knife" if I wanted advice and encouragement as opposed to detailed soul crushing critique of the piece. :D What I have also learned is that many people have very specific tastes and expectations and will let you know if a particular knife does not match up with them.
 
Wulf said:
This may seem quaint, but I tend to view this discussion forum as a discussion forum.

There are times when I enjoy simply looking at photos of knives... Coop's website is a great place to do that. So is Blade magazine, and the Knives Annual books, and even the Gallery subforum. But this is the place I come to discuss knives. Not just look at pictures and ooh and aah but actually discuss them. I consider the forum participants here my friends and comrades on a common journey. I respect them. I want to talk to them, understand their perspectives, read their opinions, hear their stories and learn from them. Opinions will always vary but ultimately it is our opinions that ignite our passion for this craft. So let's share that passion! Let's engage eachother, not shut eachother out! Believe me it's much more fun and interesting and fulfilling this way.
Click to expand...

Wulfy my man - well said, and I could not agree more.

This custom forum is in fact a sub-forum of Knife Specific DISCUSSION. Saying what we like and don't like about knives lies at the very heart of knife discussion, IMO. If it's done respectfully, constructively, and with at least a vague awareness that other views / preferences are legitimate and that no one person speaks for all, that brings net value to the forum content.

Lorien said:
I find it interesting that many of the people who bemoan the lack of discussion, often tend not contribute their opinion to threads where the OP actually asks for feedback.
Click to expand...

You noticed that too, eh?

Roger
 
Last edited:
betzner said:
There's a huge disconnect here. You seem to be taking personal offense when none is intended. I am being critical of the thread (lotsa comments there), not you. You are way off base. And if you carefully inspect my thread, you will find, nowhere, that I was ever critical of any comment made about the knife, so I had no thought about positive or negative opinion, and any thought by others that such was the case, WRONG.

So, back to my contention that too much has already been written on this topic.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post, Bob.

I think you misunderstood me. Which of course could be my fault, your fault, or a bit of both. I am not taking personal offense to your criticism at all. I do not think it has to do with me.

You are being critical of my thread and I am responding to that and defending the validity of this thread.

And I fail to understand how a thread where no one mentioned you or addressed you or discussed you - and which you did not even have to read - somehow makes the Internet or even just BladeForums less fun. If you had never seen this thread would it make it less fun? If it had been posted on a different forum that you do not visit would that make it less fun? Again, this does not seem to make any sense to me.

And perhaps i am wrong, but it seemed to me that you closed your thread because you did not like certain remarks folks posted on it and did not want anyone to post any more such remarks. Perhaps they were remarks about the knife; perhaps they were other remarks. Of course since you won't explain why you closed it, there is no way for anyone to know which remarks you did not like and why they prompted you to close the thread. But it seems evident to me that you did not like folks posting certain remarks on your thread.

And finally, if you think too much is being written on a topic, screen pixels are cheap and there is no requirement that anyone read all of that "extra writing."

But this thread is not about you - or me - or any other threads you have posted here.



In response to some comments of others, I do not understand the comments pertaining to rules. Neither I nor you owns this forum and so it seems to me that we do not have any right to try to make or enforce any rules here anyway. So I want to be extremely clear that I am not proposing any rules or soliciting any suggestions for any rules.

I just posted this thread to gauge how the folks that post here would like to see things work here. In particular, I am just asking for folks' opinions on whether when someone posts a picture of a knive here, do you think it is OK if someone else comes along and makes a polite but critical remark regarding the knife and others then respond so as to engage in an actual discussion about the knive? Or does that bother you, and you don't like to see that here and would prefer that folks limit their remarks here to positive comments?
 
The Virginian said:
Thank you for your post, Bob.

I think you misunderstood me. Which of course could be my fault, your fault, or a bit of both. I am not taking personal offense to your criticism at all. I do not think it has to do with me.

You are being critical of my thread and I am responding to that and defending the validity of this thread.

And I fail to understand how a thread where no one mentioned you or addressed you or discussed you - and which you did not even have to read - somehow makes the Internet or even just BladeForums less fun. If you had never seen this thread would it make it less fun? If it had been posted on a different forum that you do not visit would that make it less fun? Again, this does not seem to make any sense to me.

And perhaps i am wrong, but it seemed to me that you closed your thread because you did not like certain remarks folks posted on it and did not want anyone to post any more such remarks. Perhaps they were remarks about the knife; perhaps they were other remarks. Of course since you won't explain why you closed it, there is no way for anyone to know which remarks you did not like and why they prompted you to close the thread. But it seems evident to me that you did not like folks posting certain remarks on your thread.

And finally, if you think too much is being written on a topic, screen pixels are cheap and there is no requirement that anyone read all of that "extra writing."

But this thread is not about you - or me - or any other threads you have posted here.



In response to some comments of others, I do not understand the comments pertaining to rules. Neither I nor you owns this forum and so it seems to me that we do not have any right to try to make or enforce any rules here anyway. So I want to be extremely clear that I am not proposing any rules or soliciting any suggestions for any rules.

I just posted this thread to gauge how the folks that post here would like to see things work here. In particular, I am just asking for folks' opinions on whether when someone posts a picture of a knive here, do you think it is OK if someone else comes along and makes a polite but critical remark regarding the knife and others then respond so as to engage in an actual discussion about the knive? Or does that bother you, and you don't like to see that here and would prefer that folks limit their remarks here to positive comments?
Click to expand...

William-

I don't respond well to remarks and questions that are of a condescending nature, so I'll simply avoid this thread, as you suggest.

Best regards,

Bob Betzner
 
I hope you don't mind me giving my two cents, but since my name came up, let me explain my post in Bob's thread;

whenever Steven offers a critique, especially in a thread created by a collector about a knife they have, inevitably someone is going to 'come to the defense' of either the maker or the collector, and either call Steven out on his opinion or support it. Steven's remarks often have a pot stirring aspect to them, which I've grown to appreciate from time to time, and which others appreciate regularly. Some see these remarks as attacks, but they simply are what they are; one man's pov. But one thing's for sure, they almost always elicit an emotional response.

I don't think Bob was reacting to Steven's comments at all, but to some responses it generated which had less to do with the knife and more to do with the reactions to Steven's words. I think Bob saw the writing on the wall about the inevitability of the dog pile which could ensue. I saw it too, and was glad he didn't let it progress and sully his thread which has happened to me in the past in exactly the same way. All this, when really, the intent of the thread was simply to share with others the image of a beautiful knife.

I've made my peace with Steven over the years, and used to be 'that guy' who'd come to the defense of the guy who started the thread, seeing Steven's words as an assault. I've learned that I do not want that role; I have no issue with people posting opinions anywhere in this forum unless they are being an ass. I don't think anyone was being an ass in that thread, but there was major potential for that to transpire. Bob cut it off at the pass by locking the thread, which in my mind, he had every right to do.

At any rate, I don't mean to get overly involved here, just wanted to explain my pov.
 
I for one would welcome seeing more critiques and such, but it can often be very difficult to phrase them in the most tactful way. I guess if I had to break it down, I'd say that I think criticism should be avoided, but advice should be encouraged.

For instance, and I'll take my own work as an example, suppose I put a knife up, and it doesn't have as clean of a plunge line as many of the pros on here (understandable, as I'm strictly amateur). There's a difference between saying something like, "you need to work on your plunges; they're not very clean," and "I notice your plunges aren't as clean as some I've seen. Have you considered using <insert suggestion for how to improve the plunge>." When it becomes more of a sharing of knowledge and ideas on how to improve, it's a lot more palatable (and educational) than just listing off things you don't like.

There were a couple threads recently that had some criticism that I thought was interesting, and could have used more detail. For instance, if you don't like the aesthetic of something, and you have a suggestion on how to improve it (say, you think it needs a single guard instead of a double guard, or you don't like the placement of pins), I would love to see some pictures of similar pieces that illustrate the aesthetic concept that you're trying to convey. As a new maker, I do learn a lot from the experience and comments of the experienced folks on here. Whether you position that experience to be helpful or critical goes a long ways towards making sure that there aren't any pissing contests, at least in my view. I think this forum would improve with more advice and comments. If you don't like something, and you just say you don't like it, but don't offer anything more than just your dislike, I don't feel that adds anything to the community, and should probably be kept to yourself. But if you don't like something, and have a helpful suggestion on how to improve it, then you've contributed something useful.
 
As for as I am concerned as a maker, on Bladeforums, if one of my pieces is posted I welcome postive and negative feed back. I am also willing to answer why this is that way or such and such on a piece.
 
Gentlemen...
You may discuss the topic as adults and have a meaningful conversation that may be productive....
Or you can discuss each other and snipe over points of view and each other actions.....which will close this thread.
 
When I started posting on BladeForums about 10 years ago, this forum was more like it is lately...pleasant...pastoral..not much controversy, except when (Cliff) He Who Shall Not Be Named(Stamp) came charging in like a myopic rhino....and then I started posting the truth as seen through my eyes....and it swirled around a BUNCH of stuff....and changed some of the direction and tone of this forum, some for good, some for bad.

I thought then, and still think that we should discuss the design, the knives, AND the people involved. Sometimes, a maker has far to go before they "get there" and this is fine as long as the price matches the work AND the aftermarket value...and that can be discussed to death, but the discussion is still important...because there are many very valid and differing views on it.

Sometimes, the maker is a thief, a liar or a conman, and that deserves to be discussed here too. I have always thought that if people have the information, they should share it, for the betterment of all, and put individual considerations aside.

My posts back then were a lot more witty and sarcastic, a lot nastier and they hurt people's feelings....and sometimes business. As the decade passed, and a great many shows attended, some makers teared up in front of me, or just plain related how hurt they were that I would make sport of them or their knife, they had their heart and soul wrapped up in it, you see.

The feelings of the makers was never considered in the choice of words....and that is a great fault of character that pops up sometimes to this day. If a decent man is making what Ed Fowler calls an "honest knife", it isn't very sporting of me to not consider his feelings in that knife. If I comment at all any more, I try to be very specific about the issues I identify as a problem, and leave out some of the "witty" commentary. While it may not be as amusing(it isn't:D), it is also a lot more fun to go to shows and sit with a maker or collector and chat, rather than feel eyes burning holes in the back of my head, and a lot more balanced for everyone concerned if I take my "gritty" observations face to face.

For a lot of makers, this is a serious, full time business....sometimes it doesn't get treated like that.

For a lot of us collectors, it might as well be a business, the time that we spend at it....be honest with yourself, Bob, Martin, Peter, Roger, Kevin most of you professionals who have been at this a while......the numbers are big.

I'm trying to get to a place on BladeForums where I can speak like I do to my customers....not lying, not pulling the punches, but ALWAYS being respectful, courteous and professional.....I'll save the mockery and shenanigans for the phone calls and hanging out in the hotel room.:D

Saw the Dalai Lama speak a few weeks ago, and he said that "without respect, there is no trust, and without trust, we cannot cooperate and make the world a better place".

That concept resonated with the entire room of roughly 5,000 people, and the applause was thunderous. The words are very true and apply to the microcosm of BladeForums as well as the whole world. If we approach the discussion of the design, the knives and the people with respect, we may be able to reach the next generation and have our words and experiences heard and shared.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Last edited:
RogerP said:
Great post Steven.
Click to expand...

Doggone it! I'm gonna have to agree on that!:D
Very well spoken, Steven.
It may be harder than just throwing an opinion out there, but when a message is delivered with forethought, respect and tactfulness the discussion and it's result are far sweeter and much more productive.
 
Hi, I'm Kris and I am a nobody in the knife world. I have no great plans to be the next Moran or Loveless. However I have spent my life using knives, and plan on spending the rest of my life making my own and using the work of other makers.

That being said I poke my head in here and give my thoughts once in a while. I try to preface my thoughts with a disclaimer such as "in my opinion/ in my experience" or "I know I may be in the minority but.....". I'm not afraid to mention a feature that I find positive or negative, as there are as many varying aspects of custom knives as there are custom knife owners. I think that respectful, EGO FREE, comments are always needed in a discussion forum. I'm not a fan of wire inlay, as one example. If there is a thread on wire inlay I will read it, form my opinions on what is presented yet try to not comment as it is far away from my liking. If a maker posts a single knife and asks for opinions, I may say that I would like it better without the inlay, or that I find the inlay to distract from the overall flow of the knife. I'm not saying that the maker was wrong to utilize the technique, but that it doesn't fit my aesthetic appeal. Neither of us are right, neither if us are wrong, it is a difference of opinion.

In a thread a short while ago it was mentioned by a poster that he would liked to see a choil on the blade, to which I replied that the lack of choil was a feature that drew the blade to me. Both of us expressed our opinions- now the maker can weigh how he goes forward with his designs in the future.

I've posted a picture of a knife I made from a design I did with my first bar of steel. I knew the design wasn't going to be universally accepted, but wanted constructive feedback about what others liked AND disliked about it. I make no rivet kydex sheaths with some knives and this knife had a new variation on that theme. It was called garbage by one poster- hurt a bit but fair game. It allowed me to see it from a new set of eyes, and I saw some areas that needed work. Another poster mentioned that it was an unsharpened piece of junk/crowbar or some such comment. I had previously explained how I tested the blade for usefulness, and asked for clarification of how he came to that determination, as to open dialogue and see his point of view. No responce was forthcoming, therefore I could not draw anything further from the comment and left it in the dust as the blade performed as I wanted it to.

Two different comments on my knife- one useful, one less so. I feel that as long as we back up our opinions with logic then we can all learn from discourse. If we comment with absolutes then the thread can be derailed by arguments to see who is right. I would rather have honest discourse than arguments.

I don't collect for return on investment or secondary market, so I try to avoid these contentious issues as well. I collect and try to make Gold Class Blue Collar Knives- ones that look good and work hard, so that us where my perspective comes from.

I don't mind giraffe bone or mokume some times, don't care for it others, and rarely care for absolutes in anything.
 
See post #32 above..................Someone has abducted STeven and then entered a post using his signature. Who are you and what have you done with STeven?:D

(Now let's be serious, Paul.....okay)

Well done Stevie, you show a side here too few have had the pleasure to experience. Be cautious though.......you don't want too many people to know you are really true blue and a friend to the bitter end, and beneath that slightly caustic exterior there is a truly amazing person.

I have to quit now before I start to cry,;) but I do love you like a son ,Stevie.

Paul
 
I really appreciate, and enjoyed reading, your post, Steven.
 
I guess that everyone reacts to criticism (either positive or negative) quite differently. I have always appreciated criticism as long as it is followed up with the why(s). Don't simply tell me the knife is great or that it sucks. Tell me why you like it or not. I use this forum as a learning tool and I can't learn much from a simple yea or nea.

:thumbup:It's nice to have a thread here that is more than "look at my latest".

Thanks Steven.

Gary
 
Am I misssing something here?
When you post a knife in a thread that is open for discussion you open the door for criticism or praise and you take the good with the bad. I respond immediately to anything that seems even the slightest bit negative and have found that these posts, and they are very few, are usually just misinterpreted questions.

Maybe there should be a locked Gallery thread (if there isnt one already) where we can all look at the pretty pictures and not be subject to comments. I personally have thick skin and relish the comments.

To each his own I guess.

VR
Steve Janik
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top