A word from the Mad Dog owner.

Mike Turber · Nov 5, 1999

OK here is what the actual owner of the knife has to say.

He just read the Mrs. Mad Dog thread about the warranty issue. (I had not read it yet)

I read her thread while talking to him.

When he sent me the knife he had no intention of getting a new knife. He knew I was going to take the handle off and he actually thought that alone would void the warranty. Now that the "notch" theory has been brought up he offered the following. He would be happy to accept a new knife since this was apparently a shop knife or a defective knife, but not directly from Mad Dog as he does not want to get into this Mad Dog issue. I said I would be happy to send in the knife for him but I doubt Mad Dog would accept it from me. He also said he does not want to get the dealer caught up in this issue either and said it might be best to just forget the $335 he paid for the knife. I did tell him for sending in the knife and being such a good sport I would get him anything he wants for wholesale for at least a year.

He would like to accept the gracious offer from Mrs. Mad Dog but only if I handle the transaction for him. I told him I would make this post but it is up to her. I also said she wants to see a receipt and this would not only reveal his identity but he said his receipt shows his name, address and phone number and other info. It also shows the dealer, who he has been friends with for nearly 10 years, and he did not want him in trouble. The dealer is an official MD dealer. I would name the dealer but I already stated the knife was bought 8 months ago and that would help to reveal who he is. He also stated he has not talked to the dealer so we do not have a way of checking the origin of the knife. He is not sure if the dealer has Internet access and therefor access to what is going on here.

So we can just wait to see what the response is. I can not post on the other forum so if anyone wishes they can post this info for him.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
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Mike Turber · Nov 7, 1999

This is from a post on KFC by Pres in VA.

After all of this, the owner of the knife wishes to identify neither himself nor the supposedly "official" MD dealer from whom he bought the knife? (An official dealer without Internet access?) The owner doesn't want to get the dealer in trouble?
And, after all of the allegations he has made, Mr. Turber feels no personal responsibility to identify the owner and the dealer?

Hmmm.... can you say, "complete lack of integrity?"

What a bunch of geeks. (Wouldn't be surprised if they are liberals as well!)

Perhaps it's time for the Wild Thing Brigade to pay Mr. Turber a visit. Do a little "testing" on him.

Just kidding! More or less.

Here is a snip from the email from the owner of the knife.

Mike

I am not sure what to say here or what we should do. This guy, pres or whatever, put up a message on McClung's forum basically calling you and I liars. Well that is Okay, as we know better and that makes this all the more interesting. Not to mention it just reflects poorly on them for going after you in such a way.

Thanks for putting up the message for me last night. I realize that if I come out of the woodworks, so to speak, this would help our cause but I am still of the opinion that the root of the problem has yet to be resolved. The knife I gave you to test is no fake or shop knife, you know it, I know it and Mr. McClung knows it. It may be 9 years old like you said but what does this mean? People who bought knives 9 years ago from McClung should now go check their knives and have them Radiographed?

Thanks for taking all the heat. I think that is the true indicator of your integrity and not whether or not I reveal my true identity. I am too old to have this type of activity raise my blood pressure any further than it already is. The last time I asked a question on Mr. McClung's forum I was ridiculed, attacked an basically labeled a Mad Dog basher like Spark said. Back then I sent an E-mail to Spark and he told me that he would look into it but Mad Dog's forum is basically off limits to him as far as correcting Mad Dog. I found that to be quite amazing that someone would have that much latitude to be able to treat people in the manner in which he does. Now it seems that he no longer has to do this as his disciples will do it for him.

It is funny that Mrs. McClung is now putting his messages up for him. Are you going to have Lori do this for you when it gets really rough sometime? I know better than that, just a joke.

I am off to go hunting with my son today. Have not done that in 10 years so I am really looking forward to it. A friend has a cabin in Colorado and we will be there. No lights, no phone, no motor car, not a single luxury. Of course I would rather be on Gilligans Island right now. I will be back Sunday night and hopefully this will all have blown over.

Again I don't care if I get a new replacement but it will be interesting to see the response from Mr. McClung on that issue or if he even fully addresses it. I would hate to clean his house as there must be a lot of dirt under those rugs.

So we wait and I digress. I obviously will not address "Pres in Va" or try to make him look bad for attacking me.

He is doing just fine

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Mike Turber · Nov 6, 1999

PS to the Pres....

I never said that the owner said the dealer did not have internet access. What I did say, and you can reread it, is that the owner was not sure if he (the dealer) had internet access and/or if he had access to this site.

Maybe if the dealer does have access he could chime in, without revealing who the owner is as he does not want to be attacked as all people who question the dog do. If the dealer is on the net and is reading this he should be able to remember selling a knife 8 months ago that was a 9 year old ATAK. If you are reading this verify the info we are talking about but please keep the owner confidential.

All of this really does not matter in the end as we will be testing another Mad Dog soon. It is interesting though huh?

Funny how Mad Dog has the chance to be a hero by simply stepping up to the plate. I am not a good pitcher so he has a really good chance of hitting a homer off of me

Put in plain english, Mad Dog should send me his address and permission to return the blade and what is left of the handle. If this was a shop knife or a defect he should replace it. Simple as that and regardless of origin.

If he does not he now has cart blanche to not take back any knife EVER! All he has to do is say "I am sorry we can not replace your knife sir because it is a stolen defective knife and not a real Mad Dog" every time someone sends one in.

(Wife whispers gently into my ear)

OK I have a better idea and my wife Lori just came up with the idea.

Maybe I should have my wife take over for me too

She says why don't we just send the blade we have back to Mad Dog? It is not destroyed. He could simply replace the handle and maybe put a new edge on it and inspect it to see if it in fact is defective. All of this would be easy and he would not have to replace the blade.

Why not replace the blade?
Simple.

I myself don't see that much wrong with it and so what if it chips under heavy chopping. The original owner obviously never chopped with it anyway and in fact never used it at all! He just wanted it for his collection.

So now this knife would be a really cool collectors piece as it has history! We all know how people love to buy collectors knives with a bit of history.

Gotta Love Lori!

Now I see why Mad Dog has his wife posting for him

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Samurai6 · Nov 6, 1999

I can't believe you are still trying to sell the ridiculous notion that Mad Dog and a horde of his fanatical disciples are attacking you. Please, good readers, review all the threads and make a mark in one column for every post that mentions Mike's integrity in negative terms, and make a mark in another column for every negative remark about Mad Dog and his horde of disciples. You will laugh.

I think Mad Dog should be commended for showing restraint by staying at the grinders instead of jumping into this comedy. He place no significance on the test before it was conducted, and he puts no importance on this witch hunt except to send private email to some of his actual customers who are the only people with any legitimate concerns.

The dealer in question can't reveal his identity because he fears reprisals from Mad Dog? Well if the dealer were an honest dealer, and believed in the quality of Mad Dog knives as I am sure virtually all of Mad Dog's dealers do(why be a Mad Dog dealer otherwise?), then what reason could he for not coming forward to shed some light on the facts?

I am not saying that I believe the dealer is dishonest, just that your explanation of his anonymity only creates suspicion.

Mad Dog Knives has already publicly stated that they will consider replacing the knife. The original owner simply has to come forward and provide some evidence that he bought the knife in good faith from a dealer also acting honestly and in good faith. The owner is the only one with a legitimate claim for a replacement knife. But the owner doesn't want to come forward because he is afraid. Afraid of whom? Me? Walt? Jim? I don't think so. I harbor absolutely zero animus toward this person. Legitimizing his claim would only exonerate him and you of all suspicion.

It is weird though. Spark is asserting that the ATAK was genuine, and that all or most Mad Dogs have notched tangs, while you are asking for a replacement for it on the grounds that it is not.

4Dcheap · Nov 6, 1999

If the owner is afraid to come forward and get a new knife, than he doesn't deserve a Mad Dog!I think the only real conspiracy lies here ,where they compared a knife easily 4 or more years old against new ones.
And then used the price as a determining factor.Who cares how cheap you can get an imported piece of **** anyway.It's not hand crafted in America of course it's cheaper!

So all that aside.The idea that a stainless steel knife holds an edge as good as or better than 01 steel hardend to HRc 62 is the stupidist thing I have ever read!
And as I posted earlier I have seen an A.T.A.K. chop open the roof of a car,Hello!No damage!
Spruce...Thats the second stupidist thing I have ever read!
You started this whole thing by using an OBVIOUSLY OLD Mad Dog!And now as your fanatics accuse Mr.McClung of every dispicable thing imaginable,you can't come up with the owner.In doing so NOT resolving the matter!
Whatever!

Jackal · Nov 7, 1999

Hahaha...now that's ^ the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Want a real knife? No fakes? Real customer service? From a real, legit, no B.S. kinda guy? I'd get a Chris Reeve fixed blade. This would have NEVER happened with them. It also couldn't be said that Mr. Reeve is hiding behind his wife...she already takes care of all this web stuff.

As far as Mad Dog not posting because he's busy griding away at stolen blades, he never seemed to have a problem before showing up to bare his ugly face. He seems to have plenty of time for criticizing others opinions. -AR

As far as revealing identities goes...I don't think I'd do so either. The owner's wishes to remain anonymous, should be honored. A new knife should also be granted no questions asked. I mean, they already admitted it was a reject. Man...what a buncha crap. -AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.

[This message has been edited by Jackyl (edited 07 November 1999).]

Paul Davidson · Nov 7, 1999

What does the age of this knife have to do with anything? Wasn't it an ATAK from several years ago that beat out the competition in torture testing performed by the Navy?

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Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."

Tom Carey · Nov 7, 1999

So someone thinks this O1 blade with a 62 rockwell is going to hold an edge better than any stainless blade? I will bet that 420V will beat it in edge holding and most likely 440V will as well.

Regards,

Tom Carey

Spark · Nov 7, 1999

Steve, what's laughable is the notion that just because it happened elsewhere, it doesn't exist. Do I really need to start making links to the other site and start giving quotes? So please, do us all a favor and let's move back to the real world.

Regarding your "actual customers" with "legitimate concerns", I find that laughable as well. Let's see here: If you are going to say we're a liar, our testing is idiotic, etc, I'd respectfully regard that as a legitimate concern against our testing and integrity, wouldn't you? If you said that the knife was a reject, was stolen and finished, or one of any other excuses, I'd say that was a legitimate concern as well, for all the people who own them.

Regarding your "witch hunt", that's complete BS. This isn't a witch hunt. Mad Dog made statements saying we were liars, frauds, etc. and it's our duty to rebut them. I've noticed him make all sorts of statements about how he feels Lynn Thompson is a fraud, how Rick Schultz is a pathological liar, and many many others, but now when we're rebuting the statements about us, he suddenly is nowhere to be found. Pretty funny. Did he bite off more than he can chew?

4DCheap, the knife is only "obviously" old to those who deal them and those caught up in the current Mad Dog lore. When someone tells me "I bought the knife 8 months ago from an authorized Mad Dog dealer", I don't think that I'm possibly getting one of the first 500. Heck, we haven't even pinpointed the date since Mad Dog himself says it could be 3 years old, because that's when they stopped using machine grinds or something like that.

Anyhow, whoopdedoo, so all of the older Mad Dog knives are worthless now? Don't even get me started on that idiocy.

4DCheap, you have to remember that we were content to let the tests remain where they were. We didn't have a clue about the age of the knife until numerous phone calls and investigating, and now we still don't know for sure how old it is. Yet when we found out, we didn't try to hide it, and we're more than willing to throw the tests away. That's a lot more lattitude than others are giving.

Guys, If you want a witch hunt, we can certainly start one up, but I don't think that's in anyone's best interest, certainly not Mad Dog's. Besides, I make it a point not to stoop to those levels, as it's a lot of effort for not many results. All it does is make everyone look bad.

Look, it's easy to fling mud. It's harder to disprove it. Put up or shut up, someone else said. We'll, we've had the mud slung at us. We've been called biased liars using stolen geriatric no longer current production property. So, we're putting up - we'll redo the tests with another ATAK. No big deal, we'll even drive to whereever so that there's no question about the tests.

But the most damaging questions have been brought up as a result of Mad Dog's own statements. I mean, just how many stolen knives are out there in rough figures? If this knife was stolen and finished 9 years ago, and Nam saw the same marks when he did his testing 3 years ago, what does this mean? Do these marks on the tang really mean the knife was a reject or are they something else? Does every owner need to xray their knives to see if it's stolen?

As for the owner not coming forward and bringing the dealer with him, gee, I wonder why? Look at the responses in the Mad Dog forum and just imagine. No, no way at all these two would suffer, of course not. This guy is probably sorry already he donated the knife, I'm sure tons of hate mail will only make him feel that much better.

This is getting to be BS. The controversy has ceased being about how the blade performed. It's now become a battle over the other statements Mad Dog has made.

If he doesn't want to catch flak, guess what, he shouldn't call other people liars and fakes, especially when he know's it's not true. Now that he did, he gets to deal with the fallout. You reap what you sow.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

Derek · Nov 7, 1999

Jackyl,

You may want to check your facts here. Kevin has never posted one single item here at Bladeforums. He does post his opinions freely on HIS forum at Knifeforums. If he came to defend himself everytime someone attacked him, no grinding would get done. In fact, this is why his wife revoked his internet access in the shop.

storyville · Nov 7, 1999

for what it's worth, i see little point in attacking the original owner of the tested ATAK, or the dealer. Mike Turber knew (or reasonably should have) that his testing would have resulted in this sort of seasonal frenzy, and should have been prepared to back-up the integrity of his test blades. As the various *public* offers for new test blades indicate, Mike could easily have found an ATAK whose owner would be willing to "go public" and account for its history. It was MIKE'S DECISION to go w/a blade delivered by someone who chooses privacy over public acountability. Given the hostile controversy "all things Mad Dog" incites on this forum, and the wide availability of other ATAKs, Mike's decision shows poor foresight, at best.

I respect Mike and am thankful for the work he puts into keeping this forum floating. But this test, to my mind, is to be measured less by what it says about particular knives and more by the now-typical controversy it *inevitably* has generated. Like all those negative campaign ads round election time, the veracity (or not) of the content is finally less important than its effect. In this case, that means greater activity for this forum, and good promo for Mike's forthcoming magazine.

My first (and I hope only) .02 on this issue --
Glen

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How unfortunate that youth is wasted on young people." Mark Twain

JoHnYKwSt · Nov 7, 1999

Tom,

So someone thinks this O1 blade with a 62 rockwell is going to hold an edge better than any stainless blade? I will bet that 420V will beat it in edge holding and most likely 440V will as well.

I'd have to side against you on this one Tom. I'm willing to bet the *very hard* 01 steel blade would be a better edge holder than 420V or 440V.

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Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

Samurai6 · Nov 7, 1999

CPM420V holds and edge awefully darn well.

The acedemic argument is that O-1 allows more flexibility for differential heat treatment. Theoretically, differential heat treatment of O-1 could produce a blade that holds an edge very very well, in the same league with the CPM400 series, whichever one might be slightly better, while having an overall stronger blade because of a spring tempered spine.

Darrel Ralph manages to differentially temper his 420V blades to some extent too. You would have to go way out to the outer edges of the performance envelope to prove a winner in that one. The bottom line is that there are a lot of different, really good blades out there. I'm dying to get a hold of a big 420V blade and an INFI blade.

Tenbeers · Nov 7, 1999

Storyville makes some good points, some of which I tried to make in earlier posts. I hate to question motives, but Mike knew damn well what was going to happen when this started.

Look at it this way, if Mike or Spark produced a product, knife or otherwise and Earl Stewart or Kevin decided to test it, there would be some that would cry biase because of past ill feelings. Just as it happened here.

In these situations, where there is past ill, someone who will not be viewed as biased needs to be chosen to conduct tests etc. Not because anyone I've mentioned is biased or dishonest, simply because they could be viewed as such because of past events.

AGAIN, I'M NOT QUESTIONING HONESTY OR BIASE, JUST THAT SOME PEOPLE COULD QUESTION RESULTS BECAUSE OF PAST HISTORY!!!!

Expecting anything less is naive. I think there are people on both forums who like to stir ****, because it don't take much to make it happen! Knowing all this in advance should be enough to make one pause and think before certain subjects are brought up, unless this result is wanted!

Does that mean not posting whatever you want?
No, but don't act surprised and cry foul when the BS starts.

Some say that you can't post critical comments on MD's forum. It could also be said that if you question anything stated about MD here that you are labeled as a MD fanatic.

I happen to like both places, I spend most of my time here. The only thing I'm a fanatic about is KNIVES! Customs, semicustoms, factory, imports, US mades etc,etc,etc!

Flame Magnet, I mean Tenbeers signing off now!

rfrost · Nov 7, 1999

I think we would all be better off if all of these Mad Dog/testing threads were locked, and we dropped the issue. The whole "Us vs. Them" thing is getting old. If this is just an issue about quality control, I recall Emerson Knives having some QC issues with the Commander a while back. But I don't remember anyone raking Ernie over the coals because of it. If the ATAK had chipped during normal use, I'm sure Mad Dog would have either fixed it or replaced it, just as Emerson did with the Commanders.

Why don't we all let this foolishness go, and get back to what we really enjoy? If squabbling/fanning the flames is what you all enjoy, well, so be it. I won't be joining you. This is the last time I'll be checking any of these "Us vs. Them"/testing threads. I have better things to do with my time, like collecting kicka$$ knives.

"United we stand, divided we fall."

Don't look now, but we're falling faster and faster...

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"They sicken of the calm, who know the storm."
RFrost5746@aol.com or Robert_Frost@risknetworldwide.com

Spark · Nov 7, 1999

I suggest everyone go back and read the threads where we said we were going to perform 7" blade tests.

Folks, especially storyville, we had a grand total of one person volunteer their MD knife to be tested. One, Uno, Eins. It's only now after all the controversy has started that we have a grand total of two (2) more volunteers. I wouldn't say that's people falling out of the woodwork, not at all.

Second important point. Nobody made a big deal out of this until Kevin McClung declared that the knife was a fake. So far we've heard 2 stories - the knife was a reject that was stolen or finished by a former employee between 3-9 years ago, or it was a shop knife that was stolen and finished between 3-9 years ago. Either way, it shouldn't have been sold, yet the only way we found out about this was by cutting off the handles.

I wonder what excuse would have been made if we hadn't cut off the handles.

The best part to all of this is that the knife received largely complementary praise for it. But, all the hoopla is because it's suppossedly a fraud, according to Mad Dog knives. So who's to blame? Us for testing and finding out about this so called fake or Mad Dog knives for making all the contradictory statements and not disclosing that there are stolen and fake Mad Dog knives out there?

It get's more confusing by the minute.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

Stompy · Nov 10, 1999

Well said, Jackyl.

Hey, I wonder if the dog has Steve Harvey covering his ass for him...sorry, but I've lost a lot of respect for you recently as you always seem to be bashing Mike-unwarranted.

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Yeah! Drop the chalupa...

Mike Turber · Nov 10, 1999

I have officially dropped the Chalupa.

This whole argument now bores me as I am sure it does most of you.

Everything that needed to be said has been said, a bunch of times!

Our knife was called a fake, we responded, simple as that. To read anything more than that into it is justing placing the washer on spin cycle with a bunch or dirt in it. A lot dirty laundry and a lot of spin. The laundry is still dirty and there still seems to be spin.

Mad Dog makes a good knife. It is NOT the best knife, there is no such thing. When I am asked what is the best knife I always reply with the same answer.

The best knife is the one that does what you need it to do at a price you can afford. Again, simple as that.

We will post the results of the oblique X-Rays, Tim's further test and any other info that comes to light.
Let's move on.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Hey go buy something from the BFC Store!
www.bladeforums.com/store
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Corduroy · Nov 10, 1999

I think that's getting well out of line, and I'll second the move to have most of these threads locked off.

I have respected Steve since I signed onto these boards, because his posts are both knowledgeable and constructive. I have no reason to change that opinion; he has kept his Mad Dog posts admirably civil given his uncomfortable position as one of the few folks defending MD around here.

It is virtually impossible for Steve to accept the idea that Kevin McClung is a shameless liar with only his self-interest at heart. It is similarly impossible for me to accept that Mike Turber is a shameless liar who has concocted all of these tests for his own hidden motives. Yet it seems that one of these two situations must be true. Which is it?

I see no way to judge at this point, and until more evidence is available, I feel we are wasting our time. Steve will continue in his faith and I will continue in mine, and no amount of mudslinging will likely change this.

I'm not having ANY fun reading this nonsense. Are any of you? If the answer is "no," why don't we stick to topics we share a common enjoyment of... like virtually all other knives

-Drew

James Mattis · Nov 10, 1999

On threads where the forum owner is involved, I don't do unilateral things like clicking on the "lock" button.

I think it's time for everybody to let it rest for a while.

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

A word from the Mad Dog owner.

Mike Turber

Mike Turber

Mike Turber

Samurai6

4Dcheap

Jackal

Paul Davidson

Tom Carey

Spark

HPIC - Hatas gonna Hate

Derek

storyville

JoHnYKwSt

Samurai6

Tenbeers

rfrost

Spark

HPIC - Hatas gonna Hate

Stompy

Mike Turber

Corduroy

James Mattis