A2 Steel Update

Thanks to Cold Steel and Andrew Demko for the video, but it doesn't change my mind about the fact that 4034 is used as liner steel in good knives by other companies. Oh, I'm sure it will be tough enough for ordinary use and edge holding might be considered decent by many ordinary users. But that's not the point. 4034 is not anywhere near as good as the previous steels used for these same knives. It won't be as tough as SK5 or O-1, and the edge retention won't be as good.

Since I already have these bowies in SK5 and O-1, I'll wait for the 3V versions. Until then, I'll be shopping for Busse, TOPS, Bark River, and others. None of which use 4034 as their blade steel.
 
Mark Spark said:
Let me try to explain. I've been comparing a 4034 Outdoorsman against a SK5 SRK for a few days. I sharpen them variously with DMT diamond plates, waterstones, and a Sharpmaker. Also use leather strops with good Russian diamond paste. Then I test sharpness with computer paper and my fingers. Then I dull them carving Doug fir. Then check sharpness again. Most people can't distinguish sharp from really f'ing sharp. To push-cut paper at a 90 degree angle requires really sharp. If you tilt the knife any, or move in a slicing motion any, it's much easier to cut paper. Knowing this I can distinguish high levels of sharpness from ordinary sharp.
What you find is some steels are easy to get really sharp, and some are difficult. For example, to get S110V to even cut paper requires diamond abrasives and good technique. To get it really sharp requires good strops and a lot of patience. On the other hand, you can get 4034 to push-cut paper properly in no time at all. Just apex on a DMT fine plate, then 10 strokes each side with Spyderco extra fine rods, and voila. Crazy sharp. No battling burrs, no progression through strops. The only other steel that behaves as well is LC200. 8Cr13MoV is close, and AUS8 also.
Also I find, and here this is anecdotal, not scientific, that edge retention at very high levels of sharpness does not depend very much on the steel. It's not like a Catra test which measures gross wear. Those big Vanadium carbides don't wear but they aren't very sharp either.
I've been studying metallurgy and there are good technical reasons why 4034 is very tough, takes a super fine edge, and is low cost to blank, grind and polish. I believe it will give superior performance to many surprising steels including 1085 and 52100 when it's hardened to 57.5. I believe they're using cryo to get this, like Buck and 420HC. Time will tell.
If people like 3V, I think that's great. I see using Japanese 4034 with cryo as an elegant engineering solution and that really appeals to me.
Any questions?
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing your experience. For fairly inexpensive steels, I also noticed surprisingly sharp edges from Aus8 and 8Cr. Not my favorites, but they do work and get the job done.

For me, the jury’s still out until these knives drop on the market. If several non-CS affiliated users report that the 4034 knives are rock-solid, I’d gladly commend CS for that and purchase more products.
 
deadzonepatrol said:
Thanks to Cold Steel and Andrew Demko for the video, but it doesn't change my mind about the fact that 4034 is used as liner steel in good knives by other companies. Oh, I'm sure it will be tough enough for ordinary use and edge holding might be considered decent by many ordinary users. But that's not the point. 4034 is not anywhere near as good as the previous steels used for these same knives. It won't be as tough as SK5 or O-1, and the edge retention won't be as good.

Since I already have these bowies in SK5 and O-1, I'll wait for the 3V versions. Until then, I'll be shopping for Busse, TOPS, Bark River, and others. None of which use 4034 as their blade steel.
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Indeed. The BK9 and Junglas are good field knives too that don’t break the bank.
 
I'd like to see tip test and batoning of 4034.
Mark Spark said:
Let me try to explain. I've been comparing a 4034 Outdoorsman against a SK5 SRK for a few days. I sharpen them variously with DMT diamond plates, waterstones, and a Sharpmaker. Also use leather strops with good Russian diamond paste. Then I test sharpness with computer paper and my fingers. Then I dull them carving Doug fir. Then check sharpness again. Most people can't distinguish sharp from really f'ing sharp. To push-cut paper at a 90 degree angle requires really sharp. If you tilt the knife any, or move in a slicing motion any, it's much easier to cut paper. Knowing this I can distinguish high levels of sharpness from ordinary sharp.
What you find is some steels are easy to get really sharp, and some are difficult. For example, to get S110V to even cut paper requires diamond abrasives and good technique. To get it really sharp requires good strops and a lot of patience. On the other hand, you can get 4034 to push-cut paper properly in no time at all. Just apex on a DMT fine plate, then 10 strokes each side with Spyderco extra fine rods, and voila. Crazy sharp. No battling burrs, no progression through strops. The only other steel that behaves as well is LC200. 8Cr13MoV is close, and AUS8 also.
Also I find, and here this is anecdotal, not scientific, that edge retention at very high levels of sharpness does not depend very much on the steel. It's not like a Catra test which measures gross wear. Those big Vanadium carbides don't wear but they aren't very sharp either.
I've been studying metallurgy and there are good technical reasons why 4034 is very tough, takes a super fine edge, and is low cost to blank, grind and polish. I believe it will give superior performance to many surprising steels including 1085 and 52100 when it's hardened to 57.5. I believe they're using cryo to get this, like Buck and 420HC. Time will tell.
If people like 3V, I think that's great. I see using Japanese 4034 with cryo as an elegant engineering solution and that really appeals to me.
Any questions?
Click to expand...
Have you ever sharpened carbon steel like SK-5?
I never had burr issues with it unlike any stainless steel I worked with.
I had less issues sharpening 3V and I'll even dare to say D2 than some stainless steels. They take more work if they're very dull but once you get there - you're there.
While stainless steels (especially low carbon ones) are never ending battle with burr.
And yeah "scary sharp" edge is also scary thin... dream for edge rolls with soft steels.

4034 would be considered super steel instead of 3V if it was as good as you say.
 
"I've been studying metallurgy and there are good technical reasons why 4034 is very tough, takes a super fine edge, and is low cost to blank, grind and polish."

What are the reasons? You have me curious now.

"I believe it will give superior performance to many surprising steels including 1085 and 52100 when it's hardened to 57.5"

In what way will it be superior to 1085 and 52100 ? Is it going to be superior only at rc 57.5 or at other hardness's?

"Also I find, and here this is anecdotal, not scientific, that edge retention at very high levels of sharpness does not depend very much on the steel."

OK, but what does science say? Is it the same as your anecdotal findings?

I'm not trying to pick on you but I always think we owe the newer just learning forum members the best and most accurate information we can give them. Also, how does paper push cutting edges perform on hard use large bowies ? Do the different thickness, edge geometries and different finishes affect the comparison you made of the Outdoorsman and SRK?

Only some of the questions I have. I guess I have less time than questions you might say. :)

Joe
 
Mark Spark said:
Let me try to explain. I've been comparing a 4034 Outdoorsman against a SK5 SRK for a few days. I sharpen them variously with DMT diamond plates, waterstones, and a Sharpmaker. Also use leather strops with good Russian diamond paste. Then I test sharpness with computer paper and my fingers. Then I dull them carving Doug fir. Then check sharpness again. Most people can't distinguish sharp from really f'ing sharp. To push-cut paper at a 90 degree angle requires really sharp. If you tilt the knife any, or move in a slicing motion any, it's much easier to cut paper. Knowing this I can distinguish high levels of sharpness from ordinary sharp.
What you find is some steels are easy to get really sharp, and some are difficult. For example, to get S110V to even cut paper requires diamond abrasives and good technique. To get it really sharp requires good strops and a lot of patience. On the other hand, you can get 4034 to push-cut paper properly in no time at all. Just apex on a DMT fine plate, then 10 strokes each side with Spyderco extra fine rods, and voila. Crazy sharp. No battling burrs, no progression through strops. The only other steel that behaves as well is LC200. 8Cr13MoV is close, and AUS8 also.
Also I find, and here this is anecdotal, not scientific, that edge retention at very high levels of sharpness does not depend very much on the steel. It's not like a Catra test which measures gross wear. Those big Vanadium carbides don't wear but they aren't very sharp either.
I've been studying metallurgy and there are good technical reasons why 4034 is very tough, takes a super fine edge, and is low cost to blank, grind and polish. I believe it will give superior performance to many surprising steels including 1085 and 52100 when it's hardened to 57.5. I believe they're using cryo to get this, like Buck and 420HC. Time will tell.
If people like 3V, I think that's great. I see using Japanese 4034 with cryo as an elegant engineering solution and that really appeals to me.
Any questions?
Click to expand...
Blade geometry. Push cutting paper is where blade geometry plays role. Push cutting paper and chopping down tree limbs are 2 different tasks.

I also seriously wonder how exactly you sharpen your knives to find 4034 or any stainless easier to get sharp than SK5 and other carbon steel.

Also, that being said, general rule is: The easier it is to get a knife sharp - the less edge holding to expect. And vice versa.

Also part of Vanadium carbides not being sharp? Is this serious?
I can get my 3V knife hair whittling sharp and it has fair share of Vanadium. If you can't get 3V very sharp then you're bad at sharpening.

And I second the 3V being easier to sharpen than soft stainless. And I sharpen by hand, without any guide system!

Also, 4034 is tough since it has lower carbon content.
 
Big thanks to CS and A. Demko for sparing their time and putting effort to make the video for us.

I also noticed that the blade doesn't really hit with force behind it, but just with impact momentum.
I'm fairly confident I could generate more force if I was swinging that into something trying to chop it.

Also the tip test. That's very important. Those are large blades that will be used to chop down some wood, and even get batonned so I'd do all these tasks.

If I had spare cash I'd get one myself and use it for wood processing. I'd also possibly swing it into a piece of meat with bone, because it's supposed to be ready to used as a weapon too, so it should handle it.

CS themselves said they couldn't get A2 so they decided to hit lower and higher end market with 4034 and 3V. And I agree with that. Decent heat treated 4034 for low price is fair. Not for me, but fair.
But people saying 4034 is better steel than 1085 or SK5 or 52100 and O1 should seriously re evaluate what they're saying. 4034 is lowest end of low end. And there's reason for that.
 
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Wurger190 said:
He only stopped at 200, the knife could have done more...
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You can force even a dull knife to cut by using more force. He should stop when he feels the knife is starting to get dull enough to be dangerous. It could have done 300, maybe. But then maybe the O-1 test could have gone to 1,200 if he really pushed it. From everything we know about knife steels, the data charts, the chemistry, the anecdotal use, our point is that the carbon or tool steels will be better knife steel, both tougher and better edge retention.
 
Cold Steel themselves stated here that they chose to hit LOWER and HIGHER markets instead of middle planned for A2.

That makes sense. And that is honest. 4034 is definitley lower end than A2 and 3V is definitley premium.

Also, I understand they will want to make 4034 look a bit more pretty and throw some sales pitch here, this is their product after all and they are making money by selling it.

Do I believe it will be tough?
- yes.
Do I believe it will hold decent edge?
- yes.
Do I believe that it'll outperform either carbon or stainless steel?
- absolutley no.
 
EatingSarma said:
Blade geometry. Push cutting paper is where blade geometry plays role. Push cutting paper and chopping down tree limbs are 2 different tasks.
.
Click to expand...
Exactly backwards. Any geometry will cut paper. Thinner cuts wood better. Try cutting something and learn.
 
Mark Spark said:
He didn't have 4034. But AEB-L is very close:
AEB-L 4034
C 0.67% 0.46%
Cr 13% 13.5%
So 4034 is probably twice as tough as O1 and A2 and tougher than 52100. 4034 edge retention is probably same as A2, which isn't saying much.
Click to expand...
Ehem yeah...
Mark Spark said:
Exactly backwards. Any geometry will cut paper. Thinner cuts wood better. Try cutting something and learn.
Click to expand...
Please make a large 4034 fixed blade, grind it's edge razor thin and try chopping down some oak with it.

Spoiler alert: Edge will roll, possibly chip too, but some bending is to be expected.

And if you try to baton... not even to mention if you pry with the tip...

Axes are ground thick at the edge for a reason my friend.
I'm no longer even sure if you are serious or just milking reactions from us.

Also, even scandi grinds will see small chips or rolls at the edge if you hit bone with them (Mora). While saber or full flat grinds see either no damage or just dull a little (3V and 1095). I used some of my knives in the kitchen.

4034 change is what it is, A. Demko himself stated it's intended to cover low end market, I'm OK with it. It's not a knife for me, but it's none of my business if some are buying it. That being said, I'm glad you are excited for it, but lots of stuff you wrote in your posts are just plain wrong. No offense here.
4034 is not AEB-L and thin edges will roll when used for chopping.
It's not without a reason that majority of choppers have convex edge.
It's also not without reason 4034 is cheapest steel and usually used for knock-offs. Sure, CS will heat treat it better than some guy in China, but it has it's limits.
 
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Cold Steel Knives said:
As promised, testing 4034SS. Andrew took the time to take an off the shelf Outdoorsman Lite in 4034SS (4mm thick) and ran it through its paces for you all. Spine whacks at weights far beyond what we normally test and and even further beyond the capability of hand held exerted force. Over 200 1" rope cuts (definitely could've kept going - he can chime in on that), bending further than would ever occur by hand. Now, take this 4mm knife and double it in thickness and imagine the strength. We hope you guys will watch this and understand that it is not a crappy liner steel and when done properly it can be great.

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Very interesting video. I can't think of anything to say, other than that this performance is surprising -- particularly at such a low price point.

Questions:

1. How does this compare, performance wise, to the results you saw with American A2?

2. How has this performed when cutting something harder, like processing hardwood?
 
Chris_Texas said:
Very interesting video. I can't think of anything to say, other than that this performance is surprising -- particularly at such a low price point.

Questions:

1. How does this compare, performance wise, to the results you saw with American A2?

2. How has this performed when cutting something harder, like processing hardwood?
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That's what I wonder too.
I appreciate the effort made to make a video for us.
But I know we probably won't see the real deal testing until youtubers get their hands on these.
 
goldie said:
Hey what other company does ANY testing of their knives with videos like this? At least they make an effort to show what can be expected from their knives. And with that said, how cant you respect a company like this ?
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Yeah, I 100% agree, that's what differentiates CS marketing from others.
No other company will go out of their way to ease worries of their fans and show performance of their product to their audience, that alone deserves respect.

But, I'm also realistic, and I know that there is a chance they won't do tests that they consider could show a potential weak point, unlike youtubers who will intentionally go for those.
They are still trying to sell these knives so naturally they won't break it on camera, unless it's a bend test demonstrating how far it can bend without snapping.

That would be a good test for sales tho, I suppose 4034 should bend a lot without snapping considering low carbon content, I'd like to see that :D
 
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