About those Chinese imports

[dawsonbob]

I’m trying to get a handle — no pun intended — on the Chinese knives that are available now, mostly over the internet. I’m not talking about the knives being imported and sold by reputable American knife makers who have knives made to their specifications and standards of quality. No, I’m talking about knives produced in China by Chinese firms, and marketed by Chinese firms. Knives produced by companies like SanRenMu (and others) come readily to mind.

It’s easy to dismiss these, as so many have done, as cheap knock-off’s — and many are — of inferior quality: surely no $10 knife can be any good . . . can it? Well, let’s not dismiss them quite so readily; certainly many of these knives are copies of American designs . . . but many aren’t; the quality of an inexpensive knife certainly won’t be as high as a very expensive American knife . . . will it?

See, that’s the thing I’m having trouble with right now: just how good are these Chinese knives? There was a recent thread talking about these knives that mentioned the SRM 710. That thread mentioned that while the SRM 710 shared — at first glance — characteristics with the Sebenza, it is certainly not a copy, but a unique design. This knife can be had for under $10 shipped to your doorstep (I know: I ordered one out of curiosity). I’m wondering just how good the quality of materials and fit and finish can possibly be for a knife like this; as good as an American knife that sells for $20? $40? $60? $100? More? I admit that I have absolutely no idea, but I would sure be interested in your assessments.

I’m trying to leave things like nationalism out of this, and just talk about the knives themselves. I think it’s probably inevitable that the Chinese are going to develop their own quality knife industry — just as Japan did — and become a major force in the near future. The question is, are companies like SanRenMu there already? Are they producing knives that are not knock-offs, are of very good quality, and competitive with some American makers?

I’d really like to know what you think.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I don't know anything about the SanRenMu, but I have picked up some well made Buck Chinese imports, some well made Spyderco and Byrd collaborations, and others. If these companies haven't already made some quality products on their own, they probably will be soon. I still see the Falcon and Jaguar junk at gun shows, the junk my little brother wants to get. I try to steer him away from what I used to do, buy 5 $5 knives, when I could get a good $30 or $40 knife. Like you said, a lot of these mainland China manufacturers have gotten very good recently.

 

[dawsonbob]

I don't know anything about the SanRenMu, but I have picked up some well made Buck Chinese imports, some well made Spyderco and Byrd collaborations, and others. If these companies haven't already made some quality products on their own, they probably will be soon. I still see the Falcon and Jaguar junk at gun shows, the junk my little brother wants to get. I try to steer him away from what I used to do, buy 5 $5 knives, when I could get a good $30 or $40 knife. Like you said, a lot of these mainland China manufacturers have gotten very good recently.

And that's the thing: just how good are they? We know that they have the capability to produce quality knives, since they do so for American makers, but how good are the ones that they're selling directly?

 

[mmarkh]

I don't care how good they are. I don't need them or want them.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I don't care how good they are. I don't need them or want them.

If they're selling only blatant copies, then I agree with you. I also agree that they could be taking $ out of domestic companies pockets. But so are the Canadian/Norwegian/Scandinavian/Japanese/French etc etc etc companies .

 

[dawsonbob]

I don't care how good they are. I don't need them or want them.

And that's entirely up to you, and is probably more of a political decision that's not germane to the conversation. The thread is about the knives themselves.

I, too, would much rather buy American, but I'm still interested in learning about the quality of these Chinese knives.

 

[dawsonbob]

If they're selling only blatant copies, then I agree with you. I also agree that they could be taking $ out of domestic companies pockets. But so are the Canadian/Norwegian/Scandinavian/Japanese/French etc etc etc companies .

Outstanding point.

 

[knifezoid]

One thing I see the Chinese lacking is ingenuity when it comes to knife designs.
Or I suppose that could be generalized further in other products. All you see
from them are knock offs or "highly inspired" designs based off American made
models. Or perhaps models from other countries. That I think is the biggest
weakness. They definitely can produce somethin of outstanding quality. No
one will argue that. But I think no one will take them seriously until they make
something original. That's just my prediction/thoughts.

 

[dawsonbob]

Can someone please tell me why this thread has been moved to The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!? It's not about any one knife or manufacturer, just a question about quality.

Sorry, but i don't understand why it's been moved.

 

[DallasSTB]

I think that the Chinese can produce as good a product, or as junky a product as the market demands. AND both can be had a lower price (at comparable quality levels) as US made products, for various reasons that I won't get into. There are several examples from the last two years of very high quality products coming from China - the Boker Plus line, several AG Russell slipjoints, CAS Henwai knives, Spyderco's Tenacious, etc.

That said, unless it is a real "commodity" type, disposable product, I'll tend to spend the extra dollars for a USA made product. The reasons? -to help foster innovation, reward local entrepreneurship, be in closer proximity for warranty and customer service, and because of general US pride. I can buy commodities from anywhere to fill a need, but I do try to funnel my $$'s locally where possible and practical.

IMO - rip-offs of existing designs and brands aren't even worth discussing.

 

[dawsonbob]

One thing I see the Chinese lacking is ingenuity when it comes to knife designs.
Or I suppose that could be generalized further in other products. All you see
from them are knock offs or "highly inspired" designs based off American made
models. Or perhaps models from other countries. That I think is the biggest
weakness. They definitely can produce somethin of outstanding quality. No
one will argue that. But I think no one will take them seriously until they make
something original. That's just my prediction/thoughts.

While I agree with what you're saying, I have to point out that Japan had the same reputation at one point, and look at them now.

Just wondering if the Chinese are on the edge of becoming the next Japan when it comes to knives. Will they start producing their own designs in the near future?

 

[dawsonbob]

I think that the Chinese can produce as good a product, or as junky a product as the market demands. AND both can be had a lower price (at comparable quality levels) as US made products, for various reasons that I won't get into. There are several examples from the last two years of very high quality products coming from China - the Boker Plus line, several AG Russell slipjoints, CAS Henwai knives, Spyderco's Tenacious, etc.

That said, unless it is a real "commodity" type, disposable product, I'll tend to spend the extra dollars for a USA made product. The reasons? -to help foster innovation, reward local entrepreneurship, be in closer proximity for warranty and customer service, and because of general US pride. I can buy commodities from anywhere to fill a need, but I do try to funnel my $$'s locally where possible and practical.

IMO - rip-offs of existing designs and brands aren't even worth discussing.

I agree with what you say, too. I buy American first, for mostly the same reasons. I am, however, wondering if the Chinese are on the edge of a breakthrough where quality is assumed, rather than assuming shoddy goods as most do now? I guess the question is, just how good can a $10 knife be?

It occurs to me that they might be on the edge of "flooding" the market with very high quality knives, at very, very low prices just to establish themselves. The Japanese did that way back when, selling below cost to get their products into the market: are the Chinese doing that?

 

[woodysone]

All I can say is that the 710 looks a lot like a small sebbie double lug, but it's not one. I would rather carry my sebbie most of the time, but when at work and need a knife to cut out caulk, trim drywall misc. dirty work the 710 is the blade to use. Fit and finish are pretty darn good and is easy to sharpen at the end of the day. For the $10 I have in it, I can buy 25 of them compared to my sebbie.

 

[dawsonbob]

All I can say is that the 710 looks a lot like a small sebbie double lug, but it's not one. I would rather carry my sebbie most of the time, but when at work and need a knife to cut out caulk, trim drywall misc. dirty work the 710 is the blade to use. Fit and finish are pretty darn good and is easy to sharpen at the end of the day. For the $10 I have in it, I can buy 25 of them compared to my sebbie.

Thank you, woodysone, that's exactly what I'm looking for. If you don't mind my asking, how long have you had it, and how's it holding up, so far?

Some of us can't afford a Sebbie (even though we may want one), but can afford something like a 710. Just trying to get a handle on just how good the quality actually is.

 

[shecky]

What China does not have is a strong tradition of private enterprise. But they're catching up fast.

China has had the manufacturing capability to make very good knives for a while now. Building knives isn't exclusive technology available only to the West. It's pretty simple stuff, considering the state of modern manufacturing. You don't need a long tradition of craftsmen or any of that nonsense. All that's needed is investment in modern equipment and people capable of running it.

I have a hard time criticizing Chinese manufacturers for copying popular knife designs from the West. Many American knife companies are not exactly innovative themselves. When was the last time someone disparaged Case or Queen because they all they made were copes of knives that other companies thought up? Yet this is exactly what they do. And why shouldn't they? They gotta make stuff that people want. Stuff that will sell. If people want a Barlow, they, and a dozen other companies, will happily sell one.

The only difference is that most of us grew up with that as the norm, so we never really think of it the same way we might think of a Chinese based upstart, making their own copies of stuff they think will sell. In the case of a company like Sanrenmu, it seems they have noticed that there are enough folks selling knives in the Barlow pattern. So they instead chose to sell knives in the Reeve pattern. Or whatever pattern will sell. And price them as they see fit. Too many folks claim this is not fair. I say it's the beauty of private enterprise, taking root deep in Chinese society, and really just a mirror of our own past, if we have the stomach to really look deep enough.

 

[woodysone]

I would have to say very good. Being a frame lock it locks up secure with no blade movement in any direction. It's perfectly centered in the closed position and has enough room around the stub it flick it open with your thumb. The detent is strong enough that you can't use a wrist snap to pop it open. It hold a decent edge and sharpens very easily to a hair popping edge. The clip is strong and rides fairly low in the pocket although some don't like that it is tip down only. The face side has some etching in it to give it nice roughness that give the stainless a nice non slip feel that is a lot better then grip tape inserts. All in all I don't like cheap knives, but this one is a good inexpensive blade.

 

[dawsonbob]

What China does not have is a strong tradition of private enterprise. But they're catching up fast.

China has had the manufacturing capability to make very good knives for a while now. Building knives isn't exclusive technology available only to the West. It's pretty simple stuff, considering the state of modern manufacturing. You don't need a long tradition of craftsmen or any of that nonsense. All that's needed is investment in modern equipment and people capable of running it.

I have a hard time criticizing Chinese manufacturers for copying popular knife designs from the West. Many American knife companies are not exactly innovative themselves. When was the last time someone disparaged Case or Queen because they all they made were copes of knives that other companies thought up? Yet this is exactly what they do. And why shouldn't they? They gotta make stuff that people want. Stuff that will sell. If people want a Barlow, they, and a dozen other companies, will happily sell one.

The only difference is that most of us grew up with that as the norm, so we never really think of it the same way we might think of a Chinese based upstart, making their own copies of stuff they think will sell. In the case of a company like Sanrenmu, it seems they have noticed that there are enough folks selling knives in the Barlow pattern. So they instead chose to sell knives in the Reeve pattern. Or whatever pattern will sell. And price them as they see fit. Too many folks claim this is not fair. I say it's the beauty of private enterprise, taking root deep in Chinese society, and really just a mirror of our own past, if we have the stomach to really look deep enough.

Yep, I agree, and it's inevitable that they're going to start doing so. At one time China had a reputation for producing only cheap, shoddy goods. That's changing, I think, and rapidly. Political considerations aside, they're becoming a major player. Soon, I believe, we'll regard them as we do Japan today. Their prices will go up and they'll be farming stuff out to less developed countries like Vietnam.

In the meantime though, I'm beginning to think that some high quality products can be had at very low prices while they sort themselves out. At the moment they are trying to establish themselves in our market, and perhaps putting more effort into their product than we expected of them in the past.

They don't have the overhead that we do, and by shipping directly from China (eliminating the middle man), they can keep the quality up and the prices down.

Like many I have always disliked the thought of buying Chinese goods, but it's almost unavoidable for many things. It's an interesting market, nowadays.

 

[dawsonbob]

I would have to say very good. Being a frame lock it locks up secure with no blade movement in any direction. It's perfectly centered in the closed position and has enough room around the stub it flick it open with your thumb. The detent is strong enough that you can't use a wrist snap to pop it open. It hold a decent edge and sharpens very easily to a hair popping edge. The clip is strong and rides fairly low in the pocket although some don't like that it is tip down only. The face side has some etching in it to give it nice roughness that give the stainless a nice non slip feel that is a lot better then grip tape inserts. All in all I don't like cheap knives, but this one is a good inexpensive blade.

Thanks, woodysone. That tells me a lot. The fact that it is holding up means a lot, too. It would be easy, I would think, to produce a knife that looks very good out of the box, but falls apart quickly due to inferior materials. There is a distinct difference (to me) between "cheap" and "inexpensive." Inexpensive can often mean good quality at a low price, which means good value. Cheap, on the other hand, just means cheap.

 

[The Deacon]

I think anyone who has read my posts knows I have very strong feelings about intellectual property rights and a very negative opinion of Western companies that do not respect them.

That said, one of the major problems is the difference between Western and Eastern traditions and legal philosophies. Few "legal" concepts are truly universal and abstract concepts like intellectual property are often difficult to explain, and justify, to those whose tradition does not include them. It's at a level very similar to the difference between the way Native Americans viewed land and the European concept of private property.

Also, while many ideas originated in China, and to a lesser extent Japan, there never was the same premium placed on innovation as here in the West. If anything, the opposite was true, at least until recently. Designs that worked were copied, often for centuries. Someone going "against the flow" and producing a non-tradtional knife or sword would have met with skepticism, at the very least.

For those reasons, the makers there don't feel what they are doing is wrong anymore than many here feel owing and carrying knives that are, at least technically, illegal is wrong. I'm not condoning it, especially the most egregious examples where a current product is cloned right down to the original maker's name and logo, just saying what's behind it.

As for the original question, there are some I'd consider buying, just to see if they're any good, others I'd consider unacceptable due to blatant infringement. I'm sure that the companies there producing the "higher end" knives (like A. G. Russell's Ron Lake Tail-Lock Interframe folder) are either already making some models of their own, or soon will.

Paul

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[dawsonbob]

I think anyone who has read my posts knows I have very strong feelings about intellectual property rights and a very negative opinion of Western companies that do not respect them.

That said, one of the major problems is the difference between Western and Eastern traditions and legal philosophies. Few "legal" concepts are truly universal and abstract concepts like intellectual property are often difficult to explain, and justify, to those whose tradition does not include them. It's at a level very similar to the difference between the way Native Americans viewed land and the European concept of private property.

Also, while many ideas originated in China, and to a lesser extent Japan, there never was the same premium placed on innovation as here in the West. If anything, the opposite was true, at least until recently. Designs that worked were copied, often for centuries. Someone going "against the flow" and producing a non-tradtional knife or sword would have met with skepticism, at the very least.

For those reasons, the makers there don't feel what they are doing is wrong anymore than many here feel owing and carrying knives that are, at least technically, illegal is wrong. I'm not condoning it, especially the most egregious examples where a current product is cloned right down to the original maker's name and logo, just saying what's behind it.

As for the original question, there are some I'd consider buying, just to see if they're any good, others I'd consider unacceptable due to blatant infringement. I'm sure that the companies there producing the "higher end" knives (like A. G. Russell's Ron Lake Tail-Lock Interframe folder) are either already making some models of their own, or soon will.

Paul

As someone who's made their living as a designer for over 35 years, I have some pretty strong feelings about theft of intellectual property myself, but this isn't the place to go into that. Suffice it to say that theft is theft, and let it go at that.

No, my question actually had to do with the quality of the knives being produced by some Chinese companies. Not virtual clones of knives that they may have produced for an American company, but unique designs that originated with the Chinese company itself. Yes, it's pretty much a given that designers are influenced by what has gone before: it's impossible not to be, at least subconsciously. I'm asking about designs that are not blatant rip-offs of existing designs, but new offerings.

Given the price that some of these things are being sold for, just how good can they possibly be? How can they produce and sell a high quality knife at a mere fraction of what it would cost from an American manufacturer?

woodysone gave a pretty good example of what I'm after when he talked about his SRM 710. He's describing a knife that — shipped to his door — was less than $10, yet seems to be just as good as many knives sold here for $80, $100, or more. How can this be? Is the new wave of Chinese knives really that good, or is that one a fluke?

Should American manufacturers be afraid? How is this going to affect the market?

Lemmeknow.