ABS Mastersmith Test (specifically the 90 bend part)

Dave :

would think a fully hardened A2 blade Rockwell high 50's would probably snap at 90 degrees as opposed to taking a bend.
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I would bet it would snap long before that. INFI, which is supposed to be one of the more flexible steels around breaks long before reaching 90 degrees. Of course getting it there is not overly easy.

Snickersnee :

Edge deformation isn't a problem for me as I don't hack up scrap metal
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Most construction metals are fairly soft compared to the steel in knives. Hard woods wear on a blade quicker (unless you are hacking up bars of metal). Missions MPK in A2 at around 56 RC will suffer indendation on hard woods. How hard is the A2 in the Project?

As far as shock/vibration damping, I have heard this a lot as a reason for soft blades but that aspect, while relevant, seems to me to me to have a much smaller effect than the balance and handle which are critical.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 July 1999).]
 
Just a point of clarification. Quoting from my ABS Performance Test Mastersmith Application form-"Following the chopping test the Mastersmith will inspect the edge to determine if there is any noticeable damage to the blade. Any nicks,chips,flat spots, rolled edges, or other deformations of the blade wiil result in failing the test."
This only refers to the chopping portion of the test. As for the bending 90 degress part and I quote "The blade is allowed to crack at the edge on bending but not beyond approx. 2/3rds the width of the blade." Does not matter whether for J.S. or M.S. the test is the same except for the steel used.
Dave Ellis, ABS, M.S.

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Per the ABS testing sheet that I have-Rope Cutting- The purpose of this test is to test the edge geometry and sharpness.
Wood chopping- The purpose of this test is to demonstrate edge toughness.
Shaving Hair- the purpose of this test is to demonstrate edge retention.
Bending- the purpose of this test is to show that the applicant is able to heattreat a knife with a soft back and a hard edge.

These are directly from the testing procedures sheet given me by the ABS to use when I test applicants for Journeyman or Mastersmith.
Hope this helps.
Dave Ellis, ABS, M.S.

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The Projects, and I think the whole one-piece line, are tempered between 55-57 Rockwell. I have never had any edge deformation cutting hardwoods. I'll have to go get some cocobolo, I reckon that's the hardest wood around, and give it a whack.

This lack of edge deformation probably isn't to the angle of the edge from the factory, as I sharpen it at my "natural angle" which is a little more accute on one side, a little more obtuse on the other. I don't sweat symetry, as I can still put a shaving sharp edge on the knife that way. It's more important to me to be able to put an edge on it quickly and easily in the field using a flat stone.

I'm not talking about minimizing the amount of shock transfered through to the handle, I'm talking about the ability to withstand shocks, as in impacts. A harder metal is more apt to crack than a softer one from a solid whack.

That's why those kung fu or whatever guys can kuh-rotty chop or headbutt a steel bar in half that may have intense tensile strength. If I gave them a normalized steel bar of similar dimensions, they'd hurt themselves.
 
IMHO the ABS master smith test is not see if the blade will preform . Simple steels will pass the bend, rope and cutting test. The test was designed IMHO to see if the damscus will delaminate when bent, has no flaws and to see if you can make a hidden tang knife that is strong. The bend test is to see if you understand heat treating enough to make a diff tempered blade and tang.
THE REAL TEST is to see if you can build the knives you have to submit for judging. Not only do they have to be darn near purrrrrfect but the design of the knife has to be correct , the knives have to have a soul of there own. I saw some folks rejected this year at the blade show. Some of the knives they submitted were just a thrown in to get through the test and the applicant was booted to the curb for good reasons. The thrown in knife will not do in this situation.
The folks that passed deserved to pass. The work was fantastic.

The only disaggreement I have with the knife submittal portion is that the standard changes with the person judging the knives.
This needs repair. The standard should not be up to the person you are in competion with.
It does not make since! The standard of the knives being passed has been raised over the last few years to curb the number of master smiths. So you have a person judging your knives that did not make a knife as good as you have to make to pass hum ???
Scratching my head here????
I dont mind making a knife I feel will pass the test . I do mind having a person that I feel has other intentions or a friends that may not care for me judge my knives.

I do like the other portion because if you do what the requirment says to do you pass. That to me is the way the knife judging should be done.
As for the journeyman test I was very upset after working my ass to the bone trying to make excellent knives to pass the test. Some of the knives that passed were machine ground with belt platen marks in the blades and then satin finished on a scotch brite belt . They had waves and gouges in them . WHY WERE THESE PASSED?
I resatined the knives I took to the judging 4 times to make sure they were spotless and flat and true from side to side and clips were great and the handles were great ect. I even made a 4 straight knives to please the gods of the ABS. hehehehe
The Journeymans test was a waist of my time IMHO. I read the material I got and it said the knives had to be good to excellent. I looked at this as the master smith test just a notch down.
I think they should start kicking the journeyman to the curb also. Raise the level about 50 notches.

Then repair the judging so that when you get your knives judged for the master smith a non
knifemaker should do the work. Let Huston Price and Ken Warner ect do the judging.

I know what I have written here is going directly to an ABS Master Smith list or whatever.
Please dont take this the wrong way Its just my opinion.
The ABS is a great organization that provides
education and good will to many knifemakers They also helps the knife industry in many ways. And that is my opinion also.

Soapbox off

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Snickersnee :

A harder metal is more apt to crack
than a softer one from a solid whack.
Click to expand...

I was wondering about this. Can you get microscopic damage from shock that builds up over time and eventually the knife snaps from the accumulated damage?

-Cliff
 
Cliff;

Yes, this is possible. However, it takes a lot of time under extreme conditions. Because I use knives for extended periods under harsh conditions, I worry about this.

If you want to see this process in action, next time you down a can of beer, save the pulltab and flex it back and forth. You work harden the aluminum and in the process you accumulate cracks that eventualy lead to the failure of the pulltab. It's the same thing, only on a different scale.

This is more a problem with knives that have been tempered using a proccess that leaves a lot of brittle martensite in the steel. Which is why I prefer austempering, bainite may not offer quite the same edge retention(it's real close though), but it's far tougher. You can do things with an austempered blade that just seem impossible. They can take a lot of flex, I mean like you could design an austempered blade with a hardness of 55 Rockwell, it'd take the 90 degree bend and spring back true. I have seen a shovel that was tempered to this degree that flexed 180 degrees and returned true in tradeschool.

Truth be told, I probably worry about this happening more than I should, but it still is a real effect. A knife will work harden with use, if you have a knife that's real hard already, you comound the effect. Note that work hardening isn't the biggest part of the equation, flexation and hardness is. If you've worked in industry, I'm sure you can think of some cases of large hardened steel machinery or bolts or cuttoff blades or somesuch snapping after long use.
 
Snickersnee :

If you want to see this process in action, next time you down a can of beer, save the pulltab and flex it back and forth.
Click to expand...

Not what I meant. That is of course visible damage. You are setting the AL with each bend so of course it gets weakened. What I am wondering about is can you be using a knife and having it show no visible effect but it is still getting damaged.

For example during chopping I will twist a knife to break the wood out. Depending on the thickness of the blade stock this can induce a small flex (say 10-15) degrees. Now obviously this is not enough to put a set in the blade but could it be putting cracks or whatever in the material so that similar use could eventually cause a fault.

-Cliff
 
Darrell- I tend to agree with most of your points re: ABS Testing. As you know I took the physical test once and the test in Atlanta three times!!! The Journeyman test in my opinion is way to easy. I have seen some of the most amateurish knives pass the test. I also have a problem with any test that routinely passes almost each and every testee (is that a word?). I think that the ABS has already taken some steps to correct flawed testing procedures (ie: now there are specifications relative to the Quillion Dagger that were not present for my three tests). As with most test's the problems sometime lie in the Judges being mere mortals. Each has their own opinion as to what they would like to see. I would like to see particular parameters relative to all five test knives.
Dave Ellis, ABS, M.S. (Finally)

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Cliff,

It still works the same way. By bending(as opposed to flexing) the pulltab, you only speed up the process. Aluminum skins on aircraft, which flex but don't bend, are notorious for this. Aluminum is also a crappy metal, I equate it with wood or plastic, and has a lot more problems in this department than steel.

Flexing a hard steel that's got a lot of martensite in it will cause microscopic little cracks. It will take a very long time under a lot of flexing for this to cause a failure, but it will happen. This happens somewhat quicker with a harder steel.

I'm more worried about a harder steel being more brittle than a softer one than I am worried about the blade developing microfractures and then snapping.
 
David,
Im glad I am not alone and your not in fear of speaking my mind on this subject. There is a lot of powerful folks involved . Makes a guy think before speaking hehehe. I felt for you each time you went. I was glad to see you play poker the last time in the lobby. A GOOD SIGN. relaxation :} . I should have smacked my hard head for not doing my JS test two years ago. I was growling inside about making the carbon steel blades. They changed it from being allowed to make damascus blades. Oh well. At this point I have started three knives that are sold before I get there for the MS test. They are all off tradition. I worry some about that hehehe
I took some guff over my bowie (the guard was machined) and tac folder I submitted for the JS test. I guess they were expecting a art folder from me. I just wanted to pass and walk away. I tried to show them I could make straight knives .. I was off base here about what they wanted .. eh...
This is what I mean. Hell I passed the test and took guff anyway. hehehehe
The MS will be that way also im sure. I just wish they would make a standard for the knives for the MS test parameters so it was in written in stone..... not how a judge feels about the knife or about me. Im glad you got it done David. Also I apreciate you not being afraid to speak your mind. I like your good taste in knives also..haha nice collection..Love that Moran you bought ....yikes lots of money. wowowo


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[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 14 July 1999).]
 
Darrell
The board is considering what to do now about the testing. The JS needs to be brought up to date. We are having too many going for their Masters stamps that do not make it. When they got their JS's blades with poor/fair finishes were allowed as well as slightly bent blades, etc. Since they were not corrected they try and submitt inferior blades as MS's. It does not go through. We will be tighting up on that.
There is a chart to go my during the judging. It is available to anyone to look at. It is what is supposed to be looked at during the judging. I missed judging this year.

As to Cliff and Snickersee
Tension does build up. I had a blade one time that I used too hard and the surface tension built up so much the blade exploded and injured my cat. Well, maybe.
It [tension build up] is so small you will not notice it in your lifetime if the blade was tempered correct. Look at automotive springs. MHO
 
All steel that flexes, over a period of time (usually a specific period of time for a specific steel and amount of flexing) will have stresses build up inside the steel. Whether the steel will develope cracks or not will depend on a large number of different conditions. A hard blade used to pry boards off wooden boxes every day will probably crack in a few years. An example from past experience. A stainles two blade prop on a small racing boat that turns about 10000 rpm has to be reheatreated after about 2 or 3 races or the prop will lose a blade. This is due to the flexing of the blades which causes them to work harden and break. Under the normal circumstances of a using a knife, I have never had one blow up and hurt a cat (it scared it though). You ever notice that the pulley always breaks off on top of the mower deck.
 
Fisk :

It [tension build up] is so small you will not notice it in your lifetime if the blade was tempered correct.
Click to expand...

This is what I would think as well. Most fatigue limits are very high. For example a low limit for fatigue failure is 10000 repeated continuous cycles from 0 to 2/3 of the tensile limit, a high one is 1 000 000.

Numbers like that seem to be to indicate the problem in not really a concern for knife users. Its even much better for us than the above indicates as normal use is not continuous nor does it often go that high (2/3 to the breaking point). I would be curious to know what fatigue cycle limits would be if the cycle limits were low (say 1/3 breaking point) and they were not continuous.

-Cliff
 
Jerry, I want to see that blade that kilt dat kat hahahaha

Is it posible to get a copy posted of the exact guidlines for the MS test . What we are suppose to be concerned about . What the judges are suppose to look at . I will feel better not calling 10 folks to make sure every little detail is what it should be.
I almost lost my mind completeing the JS test. Im sure I will lose it completeing the MS test.
I am glad the ABS is fixing the JS test. GREAT. Didnt want to be a bitch about it.
Just felt like I went to the extreme for no reason.

I also want to state that I feel IMHO that the MS test is a personal goal . To just say
I passed the MS test now days is a real test of what a maker can not only do to make a great knife , but having to add style and grace to the knives is the other challenge.
Im glad its tough.

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Darrell
I will have to dig up where the guide lines are. Stay with me on this and I will get you a copy sometime in August [after the guild show]. It is a good thing just to have around. This is also one of the things I would like posted on the ABS web site when we start redoing it and keeping it more informative for both makers and collectors. By the way that was a good article you wrote for knifeart.com on what collectors should look for. I would like to "borrow" most of that to repeat on the ABS site when it is ready.
Naw, you weren't bitching. Some of the board thought the same way it just takes awhile to get it in works.

Cliff
I personally prefer a softer draw on my knives for several reasons. On my personal knife I draw the temper back to about a 52. I like the more aggressive edge and it holds for me longer. It is also tougher and will take more abuse. When I go off hunting for a week at a time I do not want to carry a bunch of stones to sharpen it with nor do I want to worry about what ever I put it through. This just holds up better in the way I personally use a knife. I sure would not have to worry about stresses from bends. To me toughness is more important than hardness.
 
Fisk, I like softer carbon steel for exactly the same reasons. They take an agressive edge quite well, can be maintained easily and are very resistant to extreme forces. However what I don't like about them is that they indent rather nastily. For example I was recently working with a softer knife chopping up some wood that was resting on a stump. I had brushed off the stump before I started but there was a small rock that I had missed and ate into the blade rather badly. I caught it after two impacts though. If it had been a bit darker the blade would have gotton pretty chewed up. It does not even need to be rock, just hard wood can flatten a softer blade. I have never used your knives though. Do you do any chopping with your 52 RC blade? If so how would it take to durect impacts off of hard wood or say glancing cuts off of bone?

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 16 July 1999).]
 
Thanks Jerry I feel better already hahaha

As for hardening of using blades. I agree!
I like an austempered (55rc) blade much more than one that is hardened to the point that you cant sharpen it in the field.
There is great misunderstanding's IMHO about blade hardness .
I know this is non traditional with the ASB but after working with Talonite for a bit I am impressed with its properties. Easy to sharpen and it cuts great.. No stains.
My love for a forged blade will never go away . I just like playing with techy stuff to heheh


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Darrel could I send you one of my blades to
have you check the hardness? I'm guessing
at about 57 to 58 but that is the problem
I'm guessing. I'v used files before that were designed for testing but that takes some time to get precise at.

goshawk

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http://www.imt.net/~goshawk The race is not always to the swift, but he who hangs loose.
Don't walk in tradition just because it feels good!!!!!

 
Cliff
Sounds like the one you were using was too soft. Mine does well with any organic substance. However, as when my blades were harder I always advise against deer leg bone and turkey wing bones. Son of a bucks are hard. They will get just about anything if the blade turns in your hand a bit.
 
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