Absolute ignorance

[Ron Andersen]

Well done, Hugh!

BTW, if I receive a response, I'll post it here.

Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 05-22-2001).]

 

[The General]

Who said that educated men were a better breed? Man it makes me ashamed to be in University

This kind of lefty, self rightious intolerence is so anti democracy it sickens me. However this reaction is not unusual in the UK. Double

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!

 

[MAURICE]

Calling someone "sick" because they make knives is like calling them "inferior" because they're black. It's bigotry, it's prejudice, and it's wrong.

Period.

I agree completely.
but not on the issue of opinions.an opinion is an opinion and not a fact. it is not something that is right or wrong.if i were to say that 3 dollar knock offs are a bunch of crap,and someone else is very happy with theirs,then who is anyone to say that one of us is wrong?

i understand what you all are trying to say,and remember im on your side.its just this one little thing i do not agree with.

see you at blade and we can talk about it over a burger and fries.

 

[bquinlan]

I have to agree with MAURICE on this. We obviously share some common interests and opinions or we wouldn't be here, but I'm seeing the same kind of knee-jerk reactions to this guy that we all saw coming from him. If you doubt me try substituting the term "knife nut" for "doctor" in any of the posts above and see how comfortable you are with the results.

It's easy to denigrate someone who disagrees with you, but it rarely accomplishes anything. Those who already agree don't need the persuasion; the rest get reinforcement for their belief that neither you nor your position are rational.

I commend Ron@SOGn and FullerH for responding in a non-hostile and educational mode. Sure, that isn't going to work with most people either, but converting a few is better than alienating them all. We need all the allies we can get.

--Bob Q

 

[A. G. Russell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TomF:
Note the .edu email address. 'Nuff said? More anti-freedom types on campuses than most anywhere else.

Tom</font>

The sad truth is that the persons in the edu who are bright enough to know better dare not say anything because we have allowed the edu around the world to be staffed with simple minded socialist and not objected, same for the media. A. G.

[This message has been edited by A. G. Russell (edited 05-22-2001).]

 

[not2sharp]

Maurice,

The gentleman has a right to his own opinion, and he has the right to openly express that opinion, but he does not have the right to impose his opinion on others. His SPAM could only have, and could only have been intended to have, one effect and that is to cause verbal injury.

Folks, my suggestion is that we ignore the good Dr. Dunlop. I don't know to what end he sent his email, and I have no intention of giving him the satisfaction of a response.

N2S

 

[Razoredj]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
but not on the issue of opinions.an opinion is an opinion and not a fact. it is not something that is right or wrong.if i were to say that 3 dollar knock offs are a bunch of crap,and someone else is very happy with theirs,then who is anyone to say that one of us is wrong?
</font>

Wrong.

An opinion is either backed by fact or it is not. Some statementns of opinion may be so subjective as to be impossible to evaluate, such as, "My god is more powerful than your god." Other statements of opinion may be debated as to their correctness by using the facts on hand.

"Three-dollar knock-off Chinese folders are crap" is definitely a statement of opinion, but largely subjective. "Three-dollar knock-off Chinese folders, on average, have greater lock-strength than a Cold Steel Vaquero Grande" is also a statement of opinion, and obviously false based on the what we know to be true of Cold Steel knives.

Making the statement that knifemakers are sick makes a statement of opinion. That statement of opinion is factually incorrect because, among other things, it is irrational. It is, to use the lingo of the Left, "hate speech," and is not based on fact.

It is also a fact, not an opinion, that citizens permitted to own firearms for their lawful self defense are, on average, safer. To call gun manufacturers "sick" for providing these tools is also irrational.

Like it or not, and I'll say it again,

NOT ALL OPINIONS ARE OF EQUAL VALUE.

Opinions may be judged against facts, and some opinions are more true than others.

-Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 05-22-2001).]

 

[Steelhed]

While I would tend to agree with Ron and FullerH, the sad TRUTH here is none of us is either right or wrong (even the good Dr. of Economics). The great Doctor, R.D. Laing (a Brit by the way), pointed this out long ago. The rightness or wrongness of something (leaving out the religious aspect)is ultimately determined by the predominate thinking at any given time. You can define "predominate" as simple majority rule or tyranical rule, or combinations thereof, but it all comes down to what society permits. We put people in jail for behaving in ways society/culture determines inappropriate. There are many people in jail and in psychiatric wards today that are there for doing things society/culture thought was perfectly acceptable in the not too distant past. Take for example auto opening folders. I doubt many on this forum believe "switch blades" are really the menace to society our current laws would indicate. During the first half of this century, most people in the USA would have agreed with us. Today, you find a different situation. What has changed? The knives are still the same, only society's attitude toward auto-openers has changed. Now bear with me, I know this is getting long winded, and I'll probably get flamed for pontificating, but here's the point. If Dr. Economics point of view eventually wins the day, all of us here will be the losers for it. We must, by reason and numbers, do our best to "educate" the ignorant, or at least politically nullify those who would call us "sick." If we do not, we run the risk of actually becoming sick in society's mind. That my friends is the "Politics of experience."

As an aside, I wonder about our good Doctor's convictions. For instance, if he were a bound hostage at the mercy of some terrorist group, and someone handed him a knife so that he could cut his bindings, would he eschew the blade in honor of his beliefs, or would he use the tool to regain his freedom? If he chooses freedom, someone had to have made that knife that set him free. This creates a logical paradox wherein the "sick" have saved him. If he chooses to stay bound, then Darwin takes over and our numbers improve.

 

[Ron Andersen]

I believe that everyone has the right to have an opinion and to state it, regardless of its merit. Someone can believe that the world is flat or the moon is made of cheese. That is their choice. But, if they choose to voice that opinion (or in the case of Dr. Dunlop to attack with their opinion), a forum to dialog the merits of that opinion becomes rightful. Now each of us will chose (by opinion) whether or not engage in the dialog. By verbally attacking Steve, he has allowed himself to have his views open to debate. I seriously think an academic will feel threatened for having an opinion opposed by others. It is an individual opinion that each of us will make whether or not we feel this person deserves our response.

Steve, if you so choose, you may wish to forward that email to the dean or another university official. An unprovoked attack like that, using university email, may be frowned upon. As a manager, if my employees are misusing company time or equipment, I would want to know. Just an opinion.

------------------
Ron Andersen
Consumer Services Manager
SOG Specialty Knives, Inc.

Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com

 

[Walt2]

Someone posted the statement that Dr. Dunlop types and opinions should be ignored. I disagree, this attitude can lead to constrictive laws and even confiscations of weapons as some people in some countries and loations should be well aware of by now. Never let your guard down against this way of thinking if you value your right to possess something, knife, gun, or whatever.

 

[Normark]

Hey Guys

Here is my comments to the good Dr. Dunlop..

Quote:

Dear Dr. Dunlop...

Being an educated person, I'm assuming anyway since you state Dr. in front of your name.

It's unfortunate that being an educated person you have such as narrow mind when it comes to the very basic of human tools. It's amazing from reading your e-mail that killing, death and evil are the only thing your shallow mind can come up with.

Just as with firearms, knives can also give life as well as take..
Remember this the next time you drive your car into the lake and someone with a knife saves your sorry ass ..

It's people like you that destroy a Free Society.. I just hope your aren't passing on your mindless thoughts onto your poor students.

Sincerely

Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
Pro Gun/Pro Knife/ Pro Freedom
Eater of Meat

ttyle

Eric...

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

 

[Double Edge Dave]

We are in danger of letting this thing become a punching bag for everyone who ever disagreed with us on self defense issues. I attended a seminar on principled negotiaton. One of the basic tenets is to ask yourself,"What is my goal" about every minute or so when you are disagreeing with someone. If the goal is to re-educate someone to your way of thinking, then careful, persuasive words are in order. If all you want to do is tee off on them, fine, but do not think it will have a positive effect.
I am leaving this thread as-is, because I think it is a lightening rod to a lot of pent-up feelings about the anti-knifers. Maybe we can make the good doctor understand, maybe we can't. Our goal should be constructive dialogue with him, otherwise we are just urinating in the wind to make ourselves feel better.
David

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AKTI# A000150
NC Custom Knifemakers Guild member
NC Knife Knuts member

 

[Ron Andersen]

Hi David,

Your wisdom is well received. It is easy to bash those with opinions other than our own. Our motivation in responding becomes subject to review. I know I responded to Dr. Dunlap in support of Steve, in support of our rights, and to hopefully have some impact on a rather ignorant position. I hope I used "careful, persuasive words" and offered them in respect. That was my goal. I have narrow opinions on other topics and have been challenged on them. I don't mind the debate and do consider differing opinions. I do hope, though, that unlike Dr. Dunlop, I don't ever use my opinion as a weapon.

Ron

 

[Razoredj]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The rightness or wrongness of something (leaving out the religious aspect)is ultimately determined by the predominate thinking at any given time. You can define "predominate" as simple majority rule or tyranical rule, or combinations thereof, but it all comes down to what society permits.</font>

What is right and what is wrong depends on one's standard of value, not on majority opinion. Where the standard of value is objective reality, what is right is what corresponds to fact.

You will NEVER be able to establish as fact that law-abiding citizens who carry knives or guns are in more danger than those who don't, because this does not agree with REALITY.

Just because the herd votes for it doesn't make it right.

-Razor



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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

 

[steve f]

Thankyou everyone for a great show of support, particularly Ron, Hugh and Razor. As was stated Mr.Dunlop is employed by an educational instituition and it concerns me because he is in a position to pass his feeble opinions on to those he teaches. Thanks again all.
Our Aussie Guild show is on this weekend ,back to work.
STEVE..

------------------
Steve Filicietti
Custom Knives
AUSTRALIA
http://www.unitedbladeworx.com.au

 

[Steve-O]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">What is right and what is wrong depends on one's standard of value, not on majority opinion.</font>

This idea has started all wars....ever.

If you wish to disregard the protection of speech accorded by our constitution and it's ammendments, you may just as well disregard its other protections.

I do not agree with this 'professor' if he is real, but in America, we have the right to totally ignore people....I recommend it.

Steve-O

 

[The General]

The danger here, is that if we start bombarding this...person... with e-mails, we prove him right. He will decide without even reading and thinking that we are a bunch on clan like thugs that are ganging up on him to insult and intimidate. While most posters are being sensible, when we see comments refering to 'saving his ass' and 'living under the protection provided' etc etc etc. We start to sound like Militarist groups and the Far Right is not a stones throw away from such an agenda. Now, understand I am pro freedom and pro knives in a sensible way. That sensible way is my way, to use as a tool and as a hobby. To me a knife is a weapon as an act of desperate last resort, when it is them or you. However, this man takes the opposite road, that states if he gets by without a knife, why aught another own one? My neigbour has a VERY nice car, I can't afford one, thus we aught to ban it as I can't have one or I get by without one. Daft, but can you see my point?

I think sheeple really do believe that if we go slack on blades, that it would not be long before kids are mugging people at knifepoint on every street corner every day, hang on? That happens anyway

Oh, I know, if a criminal want's an illegal weapon, he will no longer use it to commit a crime as its illegal

?

Joe Bloggs does not have the right to carry a pocket knife for utility and tasks as a result

?

So don't stop the criminal, make Joe Bloggs a criminal instead

??????? At what point did I cross into the storyline of a very poor movie?

------------------
Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!

 

[Normark]

Hey General..

Well maybe I shouldn't have used "Save His Sorry Ass",, but these Tree Hugging, Anti Everything people really Pi$$ me off....

You guys over in the US haven't felt yet what a bunch of Whinners can do to the G-ment..We have it up to our eyes here in Canada...

I'm tired of being told and looked at as if I'm some Frigging Loon Criminal because I carry a knife, or have an interest in them..

I know it's not the way to handle the situation,, but I'm sick of tap dancing around these people...

ttyle

Eric....

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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

[This message has been edited by Normark (edited 05-22-2001).]

 

[Razoredj]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
If you wish to disregard the protection of speech accorded by our constitution and it's
ammendments, you may just as well disregard its other protections.
</font>

Straw men are easy to knock down, and they don't talk back.

No one is saying the learned Professor doesn't have the freedom of speech to send his unsolicited hate mail. However, we were discussing whether or not anyone has the... let's call it "authority" ... to state that his opinion is wrong.

The beauty of a free society is that people with crappy opinions are free to state them. That doesn't mean we should treat them all as equally valid. When someone says something stupid, by all means, they're free to do it.

It falls on those of us with active minds to tell them when they're wrong, however.

The Constitution itself -- and the representative republic it establishes -- are based on this idea: that principles of right and wrong are not decided by mob rule, and that there are certain inalienable rights held by human beings that cannot (or at the very least should not, if the Constitution is taken literally as it was supposed to be) be voted away.

Believing that right and wrong are not determined by consensus does not start wars. Believing you have a right to initiate force against another person, for whatever reason, does.

The mob does not dictate principle.

-Razor

http://www.lp.org

------------------
AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 05-22-2001).]

 

[Leemah1]

Ron, your response was excellent and required.

Normark, as a proud Canadian Citizen I could not agree with you more.....

[This message has been edited by Leemah1 (edited 05-22-2001).]