Advantages of KMG/Bader-style over Coote?

PIndelicato

PIndelicato

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Sep 16, 2002
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I fear this has probably been beaten to death a million times, but I searched (via Google) and didn't find this type of cost/benefit comparison in all the threads that I read.

I'm thinking fairly seriously about upgrading from my Craftsman 2x42 to a 'real' grinder, and am trying to weigh the cost vs. benefit of the more expensive KMG-style grinder vs. the less expensive Coote. What I would like to know specifically is what will the KMG style of grinder do that the Coote can't...ie, what are the tradeoffs of going with the less expensive machine?

I know for example the KMG has the quick change tool arm feature, but the Coote has a wheel, platen, and optional small wheel and even disc attachments always installed, so is there really a time or convenience advantage to the KMG? Is it really more about how solidly they are built, and/or how smoothly they run?

I have done only flat grinding thus far, although having the ability to learn hollow grinding in the future would be a good thing. I like the idea of a small wheel attachment (less expensive on the Coote), and the disc attachment on the Coote is appealing to me as well, as dollars and space are currently at a premium. With either, I would probably source a motor on my own to save money, and go with either a VFD or step pulleys for speed control.

Thanks in advance for any input, and again I apologize if this has been beaten to death already!
 
I think this boils down to individual opinions, likes, and dislikes. In that spirit I'll give you my opinion.

I personally do not like the grinders of the "two wheel" design. This includes the coote, and (some will gasp) the Burr-King 960. I think they are difficult to see your work while grinding, and compared to the "three wheel" designed grinders (KMG, Bader, etc.) changing attachments is a pain. Now before the "lynch crowd" of Burr-King owners comes after me...thats just my personal like/dislike.
You asked the question: "Is it really more about how solidly they are built, and/or how smoothly they run?"
I think that is part of it. When you pay the "big bucks" for a grinder, your paying for the durability, and more importantly the precision, which means your belts will track truer, and the machine will generally run more smoothly, allowing you to concentrate on your grinding instead of fighting vibration or a jumpy belt. Don't get me wrong...the Burr-King is without a doubt a very precision machine, but the bust for me on it is the ability to see what I'm doing, and the changeover of its attachments. (that applies to any of the "two wheel" designed grinders for me)
Many of us have been down the road of buying a grinder that we could afford at the time, and then buying another "better" one later, and then we eventually end up buying one of the top of the line grinders. My advice to anyone who intends to be a knifemaker for the long term: Save your pennies and buy a top of the line grinder, rather than spend money over and over again, until you finally get there anyway. With routine care, a top of the line will grinder will be around for likely your lifetime, and will hold a great deal of it's value for the long term.
 
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I would go with a KMG over a Coote any day (no offense to Coote owners) but from what I see in regards to tooling available, flexibility and most importantly customer service, the KMG is the hands down best thing going. I own a Burr King and my next grinder will be a KMG or KMG clone, well actually my next grinder is most likely going to be a 9" VS/Reversible disk grinder... but my next 2x72 is going to be a KMG or KMG clone.
 
Mr.'s Caffrey and Leavitt, thank you both for your input! I'm trying to decide if the additional cost of the KMG would be worthwhile or not for my needs. I am an amateur that has been tinkering with this hobby for about a year off and on, and I find myself getting rather frustrated with the Craftsman due mostly to the speed at which it runs (extremely fast), but also due to it's design and the limited belt selection available.

When you say it's more difficult to see your work on a 2 wheel design, do you refer to when you are grinding on a platen? If I'm understanding you correctly, with the KMG design, you can look straight down at the blade touching the platen because the belt is out of the way, but with a 2 wheel design, your forehead would be in the belt trying to do the same thing.

Will, would you mind elaborating on what you feel the tooling and flexibility limitations would be with the Coote? Aside from a rotary platen and the ability to change contact wheel sizes easily (neither of those would necessarily be deal breakers for me,) I'm not sure what the Coote might lack compared to the KMG. If I understand correctly from examining their website, the Coote could be set up with a 10" wheel, a small wheel, a platen, and even a disc without any changes required other than tilting it back and forth or moving the belt from the idler wheel to the small wheel.

Thanks again for helping me weigh this in my mind. I don't want to spend any more money than I need to, but I also don't want to be back in the position down the road where I want to upgrade again because I didn't get what I wanted or needed to begin with.
 
I think the Coote is a pretty good quality unit for what it is/costs.

Personally, I opted for both Burr King and KMG.

Ed, no worries, my hackles aren't up ;) but do you mean flat grinding with the regular old double 8" (contact and idler) set-up on the Burr King? If that's the case, I 100% agree that flat grinding on it is a PITA :)

IF IF IF you fork out the extra green for the "knifemakers attachment (which makes it a 3 wheel machine) then flat grinding is an entirely new story. You still have the hang-up of tooling change out though.

I'm VERY happy with my Burr King... but I have added two grinders since I bought the BK and they're both KMG's. :) Reasons for the KMG for me, was ease of changing tooling, HP options, availability of tooling, built like a tank and very smooth running, and Rob's outstanding customer service.

Choosing a grinder should be based on all the reasons Ed stated. Quality of construction, life of tool, one of the biggest factors is how SMOOTH IT RUN/TRACKS. If your machine doesn't run smooth and true, you will fight it and hate it, everytime you use it.

A major disadvantage of the Coote and Grizzly type grinders is the contact/drive while is direct drive. It's right next to the motor, and you don't have any room to work in there. Burr King alleviated that problem by running what is essentially a jack shaft from the motor shaft.

I can never recommend stepping up to a proper 2X72 enough. No offense to folks using Sears and the like... but with those 1X42, 2X42, 2X48 type of machines it's like wearing away the steel, whereas a solid 2X72 will EAT STEEL. :)

I don't mean to bash on the Coote. I think it's a pretty nice grinder, I just don't think it can run in the same circles as KMG, Burr King, Bader, or LeBlanc. :)
 
The two wheel grinders generally won't allow you as many tooling options. Contact wheels ranging from 2" - 14" can be run easily on a Bader or KMG, the Coote will be limited. You can't get other items, like a rotary platen on a Coote. You have more flexibility with belts on a three wheel grinder, if you come across some 80" belts like another poster mentioned earlier.
 
Nick, pretty much nailed what I had to say. My BK has the knifemaker's attachment, I guess it's really a 3 wheel machine. The designs of the Coote and other 2 wheel machines make it difficult to look down onto the piece as you work without the risk of making yourself bald (or in the case of a lot of makers, balder :p )

Tooling changes.... well right now you'd be tickled pink with a 2x72 versus what you're running right now, I know I was.... BUT after you get used to it and you want to try something new OR add something wonderful like a small wheel attachment (pure heaven compared to mandrels) then you're up the ole creek again or in the case of a BK shelling out the price of a Coote for the small wheel attachment that requires major surgery on the machine. Plus with Rob you can always ask for a tool and he probably can make it for you.

The KMG wasn't available when I bought my BK, I'd have bought a KMG if I had that option back then. I have used a Griz, Coote, Square wheel, Bader 3 and some sort of high end grinder that was made in limited supplies years ago but I can't remember the name.

I love my BK, I'd buy a KMG instead of a Coote and I'd buy a Coote instead of a Griz.
 
Two wheel grinders have the flat platen at one height and the contact wheel at another. Most of the three wheel grinders (Like the KMG, Bee and Square Wheel from Wilton, have all grinding st the same height (for me at belly button.)

The other advantage has to do with vibration. Imagine the two wheel as a fishing rod. You hold it tip up and wiggle the handle just a bit. What does the tip do? Three wheel are a more stable machine.

Don't get me wrong. The Coote is a huge step up from the Sears 2 x 42 - but it can't equal the Bee, KMG, Bader or Wilton Square Wheels.

There are other quality issues, but these are the big ones.

Rob!
 
I had an oppurtunity to use both styles in the same day and like the Kmg style much more thats what I'm getting
 
i've had a coote for years.. and just recently upgraded to a bader vfd.. thanks to the very helpful people on this forum..

my comments are simply this.. i see a huge series of reasons why the bader/kmg type machines are good ..

you can spend no better money in your shop than buying a top grinder, in my new opinion.. .. its a hard pill to swallow as i'm a cheep person and like to do hands on work.. ( cheep to the point that it sometimes holds me back )

i think its a central item in the knife makers shop... and it would be worth it to go the high road on this item

good luck with your choice...

Greg

ps.. don't go without food to get it... but do budget to get a top machine... and i pray that you can see the value as i have seen it in my circumstance...
 
NickWheeler said:
A major disadvantage of the Coote and Grizzly type grinders is the contact/drive while is direct drive. It's right next to the motor, and you don't have any room to work in there. Burr King alleviated that problem by running what is essentially a jack shaft from the motor shaft.
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??? My Coote is a belt drive. I'm not sure norm offers a mount directly onto the motor, but I haven't seen one. I use variable step pulleys because I can't get 220 to the grinder in this rental house and use a 1HP baldor motor. But it's WAY WAY WAY better than a grizzly due to NOT being direct drive (if I understand what you mean by direct drive)

I'm a Cooter. Figure you should get a response from one- I haven't used the small wheel attachment. Honestly, not sure what I'd do with it. I need to visit a shop with a full rigged KMG someday.

The knifemaker rest, 10 inch contact wheel, and platen all get used by me. No problems. I guess I could see the ability to get right on top of your work on the platen being an advantage, but I've gotten a fairly good feel for things.

I feel that once you get it mounted well, it's a VERY solid machine, I have no vibration problems and belts track wonderfully well.

IF budget is a problem, the Coote gives you the option to upgrade your motor setup and then switch to another belt drive machine later.

I don't do a ton of flat grinding, I do some, and I use the platen for scandi grinds. I also don't hollow grind beyond a few half arsed practice attempts. Since I'm a dedicated convexer, I like the long 2 wheel slack for getting variable angles and a lot of control in. I realize that convex isn't straight lines with sharp angles, but it can get complex, detail oriented, exacting, and require a smooth machine. One thing you notice on the Coote versus the grizzly is that the smooth solid machine cuts faster and more evenly even on a slack belt. (and with lower speeds, no less)
 
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First of all, my grinder is a Coote. I love it and I am glad I got it. It is the best set up for what I can afford now. It was half the cost of a KMG and offered the ability to upgrade motor sizes in the future.

That being said, there are several advantages of the KMG over the Coote. Being able to change out wheel sizes or switch to a flat platen, being able to look straight down on what you grinding and taper grinding are the biggest advantages. I have enjoyed using a KMG in the past and hope to get one in the future. The KMG is a versatile machine. If you have the money, then get one. If you have lots of money, get both.

But you want advantages? How about a Spacesaver Bader, 4" (0r 2") x 132" belts, five horsepower, three phase VFD with various contact wheels and platens. Or a seven horsepower, geared reduction Hammond grinder. I have used these machines to grind knives in the past however I doubt my wife would want to sell her van so I can afford one of these.

I guess we all have to decide what our budget is and what advantages we want to pay for.
 
Christof, thanks for catching that! First off, I'm surprised since I accidentally typed "while" instead of "wheel" lol :o But I thought that because a friend of mine has what he's always told me was a Coote and it is set up that way. I talked to him and he said now he thinks it's a Speed-Cut. I'm wondering if maybe it's a Kalamazoo... lol... It was bought used and repainted so there was no marking.

Knowing what I know now, I would have left any criticism of the Coote out of my post except for the 2 wheel vs. 3 wheel part!!! But I would not change my reasons for feeling a KMG is one of the best grinders you could buy. :)
 
NickWheeler said:
Christof, thanks for catching that! First off, I'm surprised since I accidentally typed "while" instead of "wheel" lol :o But I thought that because a friend of mine has what he's always told me was a Coote and it is set up that way. I talked to him and he said now he thinks it's a Speed-Cut. I'm wondering if maybe it's a Kalamazoo... lol... It was bought used and repainted so there was no marking.

Knowing what I know now, I would have left any criticism of the Coote out of my post except for the 2 wheel vs. 3 wheel part!!! But I would not change my reasons for feeling a KMG is one of the best grinders you could buy. :)
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I just need to spend some time on a KMG, it might change my tune. I think the Coote has definite limits, the KMG isn't overpriced or anything.

Some very specific notes:

the mounting base of the Coote is SMALL. you have to REALLY get that puppy mounted solidly. mine is on a steel plate on a 2x6 constructed tabletop with a steel plate under that and everything bolted six ways from monday.

You do have a long arm up there with the 2 wheel design. Which way you go on that depends on what you do- and I don't do a lot of flat grinds, but do a fair number of scandis. I've contemplated a dedicated scandi machine, but haven't found what I want yet (something like a square wheel with variable or just plain slow speed in 1x42.) If i'm contemplating that, then there must be something to the idea in general, and that's where the wiltons and KMGs seem to win out in a lot of ways.
 
Coote's a great machine. I miss mine! The KMG is the "ultimate" knifemaker's machine because it is the most flexible and expandable. The Coote is great for what it is, but if you want it to grow with your making, it MIGHT not depending on what direction your creativity takes you. Can't go wrong with either one, really.
 
I appreciate everyone's input, it's very helpful. So it sounds like some of the specific advantages would be as follows:

-Solidness, smoothness of the machine and mounting

-Ability to easily change contact wheels at will (I don't think this is important to me, as I don't really anticipate becoming a hollow grinder.)

-Having contact wheel and platen at the same height (this sounds good, as I have to crouch down or bend over to use my Craftsman's so-called contact wheel.)

-Ability to look straight down at your work when flat grinding on the platen without convexing your forehead in the process. (This one sounds important, but I've never used either machine. Come to think of it, I believe I do that on my Craftsman to some degree but it's only a 42" belt.)

-Ability to use different size belts

As far as price differences, I didn't think the KMG was twice the price, but I'll have to check it out again. If I'm not mistaken, both can be run off either step pulleys or VFD so no advantage there.

Thanks again for the additional feedback, this gives me more to think about. Please feel free to add anything else that come to mind!
 
Not just changing contact wheels but ALL tooling is a breeze with a KMG. You can go from a contact wheel to a flat platen to small wheel without ever touching a wrench (unless you only have 1 tool arm). You WILL eventually buy a small wheel attachment and there are advantages to using a large contact wheel in flat grinding. I was taught to do a lot of my initial flat grind by running the blade flat against the wheel, sounds weird but it's very effective if you're careful. The guy that taught me to grind said he was taught this by George Herron. He would do his inital flats on a 14" serrated then clean up on a 9" VS disk.
 
One thing here is I think you're only looking at change-out of wheels as useful depending of the type of blade grinding you're planning on doing. I think you will cut yourself short if that's the case.

I use contact wheels for handle sculpting. I use the 2" and 5" rubber covered contact wheels on my Burr King knifemaker attachment A LOT in handle shaping.

When I got my KMG's, I had Rob make the top contact wheel of the flat platen attachment a rubber covered wheel rather than just aluminum.

I recently got a 3" and have a 4" on the way for the KMG's to get into those heavily contoured handles.

I haven't done much hollow grinding in the last few years, but I have used the contact wheels on EVERY knife I've done in that time.... on the handles. :)
 
Good points Will, thanks for correcting me! I guess in my mind, since the Coote has contact wheel, platen, and small wheel all in place all the time (even a disc attachment which is appealing to me), I think of it not needing at tools either, or even any changes other than moving the belt back and forth from small wheel to idler wheel, but of course they are not at the same heights this way and probably need some tilting of the grinder for good access to everything.

Nick,

Thanks for your comments about handle shaping, that's something I haven't considered that much. I had in mind that the small wheel attachments on either machine being useful for that function (getting into finger grooves and such), but I'm gathering that you use the 2" and 5" for actual contouring of handles.

I thought that the KMG's flat platen with 2 different sized rubber covered wheels might be ideal for multi-purpose function. I wonder if he would be able to do that?

Thanks again, guys!
 
The standard platen for the KMG has two, 2" aluminum wheels. At one time Rob built a platen, which I originally requested, with 1 1/2" contact wheel on the top, and a 3" contact wheel on the bottom. Rob got out of making them, and with his blessing I now offer plans, as well as completed platens....like this for the KMG or any other grinder that has a 1 1/2" tooling arm.

Nick makes a very important point....consider ALL the things you will use your grinder to do. Often times folks only think about blade grinding, but its also likely going to be your handle shaper/finisher, a deburring machine, a slack belt grinder, or whatever other task you can dream up. Even if I were not a Bladesmith, knowing what I know about the versitility of one of these grinders, I would want one in my shop. Even on the days I'm not concentrating on blades, I use my KMG more than any other tool in the shop.
 
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