Adventures (and mistakes) in knife making

[adequacy]

Love seeing the progress brother. Keep up the good work. Those grinds are looking better.

 

[crex]

I was thinking it looked a lot like one of them Tarus Judges in 45LC/410.
Thanks for sharing your progress.
So.......when you coming to GA for a visit? Better figure a couple of weeks stay.

 

[Fiddleback]

Looks good to me my friend. Now that you have one done, time to do another! That was a tough model IMO to grind. If you were learning in my shop, I'd task you to make a Puukko sized knife, as simple as you can, and repeat it until the HT, grinding and sharpening flaws are conquered. Should take 3 or four of the same knife.

 

[TxSportsman]

Looks good to me my friend. Now that you have one done, time to do another! That was a tough model IMO to grind. If you were learning in my shop, I'd task you to make a Puukko sized knife, as simple as you can, and repeat it until the HT, grinding and sharpening flaws are conquered. Should take 3 or four of the same knife.

I envision a huge bullwhip cracking after that statement.

 

[necrolicious]

Love seeing the progress brother. Keep up the good work. Those grinds are looking better.

Thanks bro!

I was thinking it looked a lot like one of them Tarus Judges in 45LC/410.
Thanks for sharing your progress.
So.......when you coming to GA for a visit? Better figure a couple of weeks stay.

Thanks! I really like the design (esp the handle) and will be cooking up more of em in the future. Maybe a little longer in the blade or change the blade to a skinner style for variations. I would really like to take a trip. I'll have to see whats up with the old tax return and maybe I can make plans for a few days or week. It would be a great way to spend some vacation time

Looks good to me my friend. Now that you have one done, time to do another! That was a tough model IMO to grind. If you were learning in my shop, I'd task you to make a Puukko sized knife, as simple as you can, and repeat it until the HT, grinding and sharpening flaws are conquered. Should take 3 or four of the same knife.

Thank you Andy. Sound advice that I will take. I'll cook up 4 in a row and try to get this freehand flat grinding down along with the HT and temper.

 

[Fiddleback]

Practice on regular drop point blades. Those sheepsfoots are trickier.

 

[Rick Lowe]

Nice finished work. I agree with Andy on that profile being tough to get right without lots of practice. Much easier on drop or spear point profiles. As you progress, you'll find that there are ways to correct that warp or twist right out of the quench oil. There is about a 2-3 minute window to straighten those problems just when the steel is removed from the quench. Using gloves you can actually straighten a twist by hand or use a wooden hammer to correct a warp. Good stuff, keep at it!

 

[necrolicious]

Practice on regular drop point blades. Those sheepsfoots are trickier.

Yup. I'll either go with the bushcraft style spearpoint I've already tried (and messed up on) or try a simpler drop point with a little less of a spearpoint.

Nice finished work. I agree with Andy on that profile being tough to get right without lots of practice. Much easier on drop or spear point profiles. As you progress, you'll find that there are ways to correct that warp or twist right out of the quench oil. There is about a 2-3 minute window to straighten those problems just when the steel is removed from the quench. Using gloves you can actually straighten a twist by hand or use a wooden hammer to correct a warp. Good stuff, keep at it!

Thank you Rick. I've read a little about doing that sort of correction after a temper cycle with metal pins and boards in a vice. Would want to find out more and make some sort of jig before I tried that. Here's what i did...

Heated (spine towards the flame so the thin grind would not overheat) the blade to an even golden orange/straw color that was a bit hotter than non magnetic, let it air cool to a few hundred degrees and repeated. Then heated again to quench in the canola oil. The oil was probably in the 90 degree range. I agitated forward to back until it was cooled to less than 150. Let if completely cool, and immediately did a one hour temper cycle at around 400-410 in the toaster oven. Cooled it in water after pulling it from the temper as I'd read there would be no issue with it at that temp. I do figure I should have done 2 temper cycles. That one is on me and the late hour I was working.

I wish I'd seen the slight twist earlier but I think I would have been ill equipped to change the situation at the time anyhow. If there are any glaring or subtle things I should change please feel free to point them out.

 

[crex]

I've been playing around in my mind (lots of room to run & jump), with a set of "krinker plates". Similar to quench plates I have that will have an adjustable angle or V. Ought to be able to do a quick check for warpage - if correction is needed, just tap the edge down in the V slot to straighten.
Thinking using bakelight or micarta to eliminate heat loss or just make from aluminum and use them to complete the quench cycle.

Been doing something similar with my thin kitchen and fillet blades. Do a quick marquench then complete the quench in my plates. Has given great results with the thin flat blades no warps in years.

Just need to figure the angle issue with thicker blades. Well, that's gonna have to wait until it snows.

 

[Fiddleback]

If you were her I would be hashing out your drawings before you grind steel. I hope you aren't offended but I am going to criticize the model on the tool rest above. This is not meant to offend.

The pommel area of the knife is one where, much like folders, the patterns have all been hashed out. There are a lot of very pleasing ways to terminate the handle. Birds beak style, fish tail fan style, etc. One VERY common mistake a new designer makes is to do the rounded end. This really only finishes out beautifully on a few specific designs. (See my edc). On the rest, it just looks like you quit drawing when you got to that end. For this reason, I came up with the Poop Rule, and a test to determine whether or not a design qualifies.

So. Make an anus (ring) with your thumb and forefinger. Hold the pommel end of the knife in this ring (anus) with the pommel hanging down. Does the silouette of your knife resemble poop as it exits the body? If so, then re-design that end of the knife.

If you go back to the drawing board on that end of the knife you will have a more pleasing and more usable knife.

Again, hopefully you take that the right way. Its easier to deliver the lesson in person...

 

[Spectre]

Here are some Shirley-Owens Pocket Defenders with various pommels, for some ideas:

Here's how one of those finished out, next to a Gary Wheeler.

Andy will give you good advice. He was kind enough to share some stuff with Sam, a couple-three years ago.

Necro, I'll also suggest you build a little more hand protection into that blade, though of course it's your baby.

John

 

[Fiddleback]

Here are some Shirley-Owens Pocket Defenders with various pommels, for some ideas:

Here's how one of those finished out, next to a Gary Wheeler.

Andy will give you good advice. He was kind enough to share some stuff with Sam, a couple-three years ago.

Necro, I'll also suggest you build a little more hand protection into that blade, though of course it's your baby.

John

JOHN!!! Great to hear from you my friend. How have you been? Any chance you'd be coming to Blade Show next year?

 

[Spectre]

Hey, brother.

I'd love to make Blade. If I can be there, I will. I'll let you know as much in advance as possible, if I can make it.

I'd love to find a job in GA~ it'd be good to be closer again.

J

 

[Rick Lowe]

Your heat treat process looks to be pretty sound. You may want to raise the canola temp to around 120deg. The heated oil prevents bubbles from forming next to the steel which effectively slow heat exchange. If you're using annealed stock, try to avoid getting much hotter than non-magnetic at any point. The thinnest part of the blade, like the tip, can get too hot which will create large grain growth. This will result in it being brittle, even after the quench and temper. When you are short on time during heat treat, you can do a snap temper of 375deg. for an hour and then come back any time, even days, later to cycle through at your desired final temp.

Andy- your Poop Rule-LMAO, but so very true!

 

[necrolicious]

I've been playing around in my mind (lots of room to run & jump), with a set of "krinker plates". Similar to quench plates I have that will have an adjustable angle or V. Ought to be able to do a quick check for warpage - if correction is needed, just tap the edge down in the V slot to straighten.
Thinking using bakelight or micarta to eliminate heat loss or just make from aluminum and use them to complete the quench cycle.

Been doing something similar with my thin kitchen and fillet blades. Do a quick marquench then complete the quench in my plates. Has given great results with the thin flat blades no warps in years.

Just need to figure the angle issue with thicker blades. Well, that's gonna have to wait until it snows.

Those are some cool thoughts about handling warping. Had never heard about marquenching before you mentioned it which means more good reading ahead Especially when I'm ready to try my hand at a Santoku or Chef's knife. Thank you!

If you were her I would be hashing out your drawings before you grind steel. I hope you aren't offended but I am going to criticize the model on the tool rest above. This is not meant to offend.

The pommel area of the knife is one where, much like folders, the patterns have all been hashed out. There are a lot of very pleasing ways to terminate the handle. Birds beak style, fish tail fan style, etc. One VERY common mistake a new designer makes is to do the rounded end. This really only finishes out beautifully on a few specific designs. (See my edc). On the rest, it just looks like you quit drawing when you got to that end. For this reason, I came up with the Poop Rule, and a test to determine whether or not a design qualifies.

So. Make an anus (ring) with your thumb and forefinger. Hold the pommel end of the knife in this ring (anus) with the pommel hanging down. Does the silouette of your knife resemble poop as it exits the body? If so, then re-design that end of the knife.

If you go back to the drawing board on that end of the knife you will have a more pleasing and more usable knife.

Again, hopefully you take that the right way. Its easier to deliver the lesson in person...

I haven't had a chance to sit and compose a response due to work but I saw this first thing this morning and I laughed my ash off! I totally get it (It translates just as well over the internet as in person) and thank you for the constructive criticism Andy. I thought I'd gotten enough away from the round broom handle look to make it work but once seen this way... can't unsee lol. Maybe I can squash the end flat a little and make a more pronounced birds beak look. I'd still like it to be comfortable for spear point drilling and that seems the best way to me.

Thanks for the birth to 90 yr old boy chuckles I had all day.

Here are some Shirley-Owens Pocket Defenders with various pommels, for some ideas:

Here's how one of those finished out, next to a Gary Wheeler.

Andy will give you good advice. He was kind enough to share some stuff with Sam, a couple-three years ago.

Necro, I'll also suggest you build a little more hand protection into that blade, though of course it's your baby.

John

Thank you John. I appreciate every bit of advice these talented guys, and you, are offering up. Even when they point out my pommel looks like a Poopsicle haha. I've thought about guards after reading a few discussions espousing one way over the other the last couple years. I've come to lean towards a minimal one for bushcraft specific blades and a more pronounced one for something like a classic hunter or skinner. Definitely need a good guard for anything particularly stabby. As much as I was into swords and daggers as a teenager (Conan etc) I find little desire right now to venture into making those sorts of blades. For now. I find my tastes change rather often hehe. Thank you for the great examples. I particularly like of the bottom pattern in your first picture.

Your heat treat process looks to be pretty sound. You may want to raise the canola temp to around 120deg. The heated oil prevents bubbles from forming next to the steel which effectively slow heat exchange. If you're using annealed stock, try to avoid getting much hotter than non-magnetic at any point. The thinnest part of the blade, like the tip, can get too hot which will create large grain growth. This will result in it being brittle, even after the quench and temper. When you are short on time during heat treat, you can do a snap temper of 375deg. for an hour and then come back any time, even days, later to cycle through at your desired final temp.

Andy- your Poop Rule-LMAO, but so very true!

Thanks for pointing out those details Rick. I think I'll find myself using that tempering trick quite often. I did use a piece of threaded rod in an attempt to raise the oil temp up a little but it was all I had, and too thin to really do much. I'll try to find a length of scrap rebar to use. My quench "bucket" is a 20mm ammo can that has about 3 gallons of canola oil in it so it'll take a bit of heat to get up to 120. I went bigger so that I can eventually quench kitchen knives.

Thank you all for the constructive criticism. It's truly appreciated and it will never be taken for anything but that.

 

[Fiddleback]

Go get a cheap plug in pancake griddle to heat your oil. They work great with ammo cans. There is a pretty good temp ajustment on them too. $20 solution.

 

[necrolicious]

Neat idea! If I keep adding kitchen appliances to the shed the snacking options will be endless. Thanks Andy.

 

[Spectre]

Thank you John. I appreciate every bit of advice these talented guys, and you, are offering up. Even when they point out my pommel looks like a Poopsicle haha. I've thought about guards after reading a few discussions espousing one way over the other the last couple years. I've come to lean towards a minimal one for bushcraft specific blades and a more pronounced one for something like a classic hunter or skinner. Definitely need a good guard for anything particularly stabby. As much as I was into swords and daggers as a teenager (Conan etc) I find little desire right now to venture into making those sorts of blades. For now. I find my tastes change rather often hehe. Thank you for the great examples. I particularly like of the bottom pattern in your first picture.

There are, of course, a few knives that can use a completely round pommel, but I think they usually tend to be quite short, like this little blue jobbie here:

A good handle shape can make such a difference! Here is a really bad, uncomfortable handle from someone who's had a knife on the cover of Blade Magazine:

Here's what the handle looks like now that it feels great:

That knife before modification is at the far right here:
(l to r, HI WWII, HI AK, Spyderco Rock Salt, Shane Justice Soldier's Knife- TERRIFIC handle, btw, an early Andy skinner, hatchet I still haven't identified, D Hoskins' "Tommyhawk", HI Crow, John Greco bowie, Jim Sasser, and the offender in question)

All of the handles in question except for the one are well designed. The HI Crow is a fairly good design, but if I had kept this one, was a bit thick, and should have been thinned down.

John