Advice need on what angle to put on the frame lock

[alan0354]

Hi, I want to get advice how to sand the frame lock shown in the diagram:


As show on the left, the frame lock is at the bottom of the blade as show to keep the blade lock. Problem with my knife is the frame lock(RED) does not move deeper under the blade. I want to sand the frame lock down a little so it move more to the middle of the bottom of the blade as shown in GREEN to get a safer locking.

My question is what angle should I sand the frame lock. Should I grind it totally flat like in (a), or should and slant it a little like in (b) so it contact the bottom of the black at the far right edge only.

Any advice is appreciated.

thanks

Alan

 

[000Robert]

I'm not an expert but I think you have your slant on "B" drawn backwards. I would go with a slant the same as the blade, but I may be wrong.

 

[alan0354]

I'm not an expert but I think you have your slant on "B" drawn backwards. I would go with a slant the same as the blade, but I may be wrong.

Thanks for the reply, I am thinking if I slant same as the blade, it will make it easy to slide towards the LEFT and unlock the blade.

 

[scottc3]

I am thinking if I slant same as the blade, it will make it easy to slide towards the LEFT and unlock the blade.

No expert, but your original lock position looks OK. Do you have failures of your lock, or lock stick? Some pencil graphite will help with stick.
Looking at Chris Reeves Knives CRK ads on the exchange here (he invented framelock), my advise would be follow Chris's design. Here is a couple close ups from first 4 or 5 ads:

CRK Umnumzaan S45VN Drop Point

I’m the original owner…Overall excellent, lightly used condition (tiny snail trails per usual) Disassembled for cleaning and to install the CRK lanyard hole backspacer kit. Comes with box, docs and tools. DOB: 9/29/22 SOLD shipped and insured…PayPal Friends (due to new tax filing requirements)...

www.bladeforums.com

SOLD LNIB Chris Reeve Large Sebenza 31 Carbon Fiber Knife Art

LNIB Chris Reeve Large Sebenza 31 Carbon Fiber. Catch and release, and only interested in trading for a Knife Art Large Inkosi. Otherwise, $575 F&F shipped. Comes with everything as it did new from Chris Reeve. A little bit of blue worn from thumb stub, and a slight snail trail on clip...

www.bladeforums.com

View attachment 1982745

 

[alan0354]

No expert, but your original lock position looks OK. Do you have failures of your lock, or lock stick? Some pencil graphite will help with stick.
Looking at Chris Reeves Knives CRK ads on the exchange here (he invented framelock), my advise would be follow Chris's design. Here is a couple close ups from first 4 or 5 ads:

CRK Umnumzaan S45VN Drop Point

I’m the original owner…Overall excellent, lightly used condition (tiny snail trails per usual) Disassembled for cleaning and to install the CRK lanyard hole backspacer kit. Comes with box, docs and tools. DOB: 9/29/22 SOLD shipped and insured…PayPal Friends (due to new tax filing requirements)...

www.bladeforums.com

SOLD LNIB Chris Reeve Large Sebenza 31 Carbon Fiber Knife Art

LNIB Chris Reeve Large Sebenza 31 Carbon Fiber. Catch and release, and only interested in trading for a Knife Art Large Inkosi. Otherwise, $575 F&F shipped. Comes with everything as it did new from Chris Reeve. A little bit of blue worn from thumb stub, and a slight snail trail on clip...

www.bladeforums.com

View attachment 1982745View attachment 1982748View attachment 1982749

Notice the line in these pictures are very thick? even though it's not completely under the blade, a thick portion is under the blade already. That's good. But most of the knives, the liner is quite thin, if it's not completely under the blade, it's not that safe.

 

[scottc3]

most of the knives, the liner is quite thin, if it's not completely under the blade, it's not that safe

brain fade here, sorry-
Only my opinion here- the liner locks that have thinner steel or whatever material are only as unsafe as the user, unless there is a manufacturing defect, it is a good design for pocket size folders. Lock came after back locks, Michael Walker came up with version commonly used according to wiki. And some issues arose around BF in 2000, but nothing to do with failures.

Michael Walker Liner Lock Controversy

Not that it matter's, but here is my opinion! As a knife collector (both custom and production), I feel that this situation is a disgrace, not only to Walker, but to all custom knifemakers and collector's!!! If Lake just wanted for his friend to be recognized for his accomplishments and...

www.bladeforums.com

Michael Walker (knifemaker) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[killgar]

What you're describing is commonly referred to as "early lock-up", and it is often considered to be desirable because it means there is plenty of room across the tang for the lock to wear-in over time.

The lock will naturally wear and move further across the tang with use (opening/locking and closing/unlocking). The further across the tang the lock moves, the shorter the life of the lock and knife will be.

My question would be- How is the knife locking up now? If it's locking up tight, I would leave it alone. Altering the contact surface of the lock can cause real problems, like lock-rock (the lock slipping back across the tang under the slightest pressure to the point of disengaging).

Frame locks look simple, but the angles created for both the lock and blade tang need to be precisely correct to produce proper contact and a secure lock up.

A well made frame lock, even with early lock-up, should not come unlocked with normal use. If you need to use a knife for some high-stress application that would cause a quality frame lock to come unlocked, I'd recommend a fixed-blade for that task.

And if the lock in it's current condition does not lock up tight and secure, I would suggest sending it back to the maker, if that's an option. Altering the lock would surely void any warranty the knife might have.

 

[alan0354]

Thanks for the replies, I just want to know the right angle to grind the frame lock, should it be like in (b) shown in the first post?

 

[000Robert]

Thanks for the replies, I just want to know the right angle to grind the frame lock, should it be like in (b) shown in the first post?

I would grind some off of the blade and not touch the frame.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I have a Camillus Cuda Dominator assisted framelock that I'd bought as-new some years ago, via a reseller. It's a nicely-built knife, EXCEPT for the fact that the lockup is too loose & sloppy - it rattles as the blade bounces against the end of the framelock, when I shake it. Every time I handle that knife, I'm convinced it would've been much better if it came to me a little too tight. At least that way, I could just let it wear in with some use. But there's no way to add metal back into that lockup, if too much is taken off trying to fix it.

As others have said here, I'd be a lot more inclined to leave it be and let it wear in. Lubricate it with some graphite in the short-term. If you go just a hair too far in taking metal off, it's unfixable after that.

 

[chalby]

I think there is a good chance you will ruin you knife if you start grinding the framelock.

If you are committed to doing it though, I don't think it will matter much if you grind it straight or an angle. If I was held at gunpoint and forced to do it, I would probably grind it straight. Grinding on an angle might give you a slightly more solid lock up in the short term, but will wear much quicker over time as well.

I think this is a bad idea but if you do it, I would recommend taking off tiny amounts of material at a time rather than trying to get it done in one go.

 

[alan0354]

I would grind some off of the blade and not touch the frame.

What is the reason?

The blade is too hard to grind, besides, if I screw up the frame, it's cheaper if I want to replace.

 

[alan0354]

I think there is a good chance you will ruin you knife if you start grinding the framelock.

If you are committed to doing it though, I don't think it will matter much if you grind it straight or an angle. If I was held at gunpoint and forced to do it, I would probably grind it straight. Grinding on an angle might give you a slightly more solid lock up in the short term, but will wear much quicker over time as well.

I think this is a bad idea but if you do it, I would recommend taking off tiny amounts of material at a time rather than trying to get it done in one go.

Thanks

I fix a knife honing stone on the table and carefully move the frame with two hands to keep it stable. Short of having a milling machine, that's the best I can think of. I tried it on a knife I don't care, it turned out good already.

I have try working the frame using my finger, moving in and out to try to break it in, it doesn't improve at all. I took the frame out and bend it slightly more hoping it will push in a little more, it did not. I tried everything I can think of already. I'll try to bend it out a little more and see. Problem with bending too much out is it will make it hard to flip the knife open as the frame is pushing too hard on the blade and make it harder to open.

Why are people so worry about grinding the frame? Is it the angle or just worry about me grinding too much and the blade becomes lose like in your case?

If it just worry about me grinding too much, I won't. I actually use a marker pen to mark the surface to be grind. Then after a few stroke, I check to see how much of the color got removed to see the progress. I only take out the color, then I put it back in the knife to try and see. It's going to be a long process. I am very careful.

In fact, I am talking here first, I want to wait a little and see more comments before I even start doing anything.......Even though I already successfully did it on another knife already. I grind it like in (b), it's safer.

Thanks

 

[alan0354]

One thing I want to show how the bottom of the blade looks on the few of my knives particular the one I am working on. The bottom is not straight slanted like my original drawing. It is curved like this drawing.
[url=https://postimages.org/][/URL]

This mean even if the frame lock wears out a little, it's not going to push in that far as the angle of the bottom of the blade gets steeper as you go deeper and prevent the frame from going too far.

More importantly, most of the knives, the frame on the opposite side is very close to the blade. Meaning even if the frame lock plate move all the way to the end, it will hit the frame of the opposite side and stopped. It will still have enough thickness to lock the blade tight. It's not like it will move too much and move pass the bottom of the blade and free the blade.

 

[000Robert]

What is the reason?

The blade is too hard to grind, besides, if I screw up the frame, it's cheaper if I want to replace.

Because of the angle of the knife blade at the lock. It would be nice to see some actual photos. But all we have to go by is your crude drawing.
But after reading the other comments, maybe it would be better to leave it alone.

 

[scottc3]

alan0354, thread reads like your having fun, sounds like you are willing to replace knives if you make lock fail by grinding. Sure would like to see before and after pics on some locks you have modified. I would urge you to mark knives you grind locks on, and not give to loved ones or friends because they are more likely to fail then manufactured locks, at this moment of your modding hobby. Hey maybe you have a pile from TSA confiscated folders, or got a hold of really bad lock examples somehow? Also you might get interested in making your own folders by modding? I see no bad advise in this thread, excluding my post on liner locks... enjoy and share results please. Again pics would be great.

 

[alan0354]

I was very careful, I looked under magnifying glass to see which part is uneven, doing like a few pass and put back on to try and look. Finally I think I got it. This is the end result, look at the frame is way under the blade:


I verify even if I push it toward the right, it only move a little and stopped. So it's not over grind.

I then have the blade locked open, hit the back of the blade ( opposite side of the sharp side) on concrete steps to verify the frame lock will not release the blade from the shock. It is very secure.

I think I am good particular I hit the back side of the blade on concrete.

If there is any other way to test the knife, let me know. I am going to use this for EDC, so it has to be secure.

Thanks

 

[000Robert]

I was very careful, I looked under magnifying glass to see which part is uneven, doing like a few pass and put back on to try and look. Finally I think I got it. This is the end result, look at the frame is way under the blade:


I verify even if I push it toward the right, it only move a little and stopped. So it's not over grind.

I then have the blade locked open, hit the back of the blade ( opposite side of the sharp side) on concrete steps to verify the frame lock will not release the blade from the shock. It is very secure.

I think I am good particular I hit the back side of the blade on concrete.

If there is any other way to test the knife, let me know. I am going to use this for EDC, so it has to be secure.

Thanks

That looks like a liner lock. I'm glad that you got her fixed up.

 

[alan0354]

That looks like a liner lock. I'm glad that you got her fixed up.

Looks promising. I first use a marker to color the surface, then I move the flat surface of the fine diamond knife sharpener at an angle. I did two strokes, I was surprise the color ALL disappeared. This means I am sanding at the correct angle the knife original comes with( LUCKY). So I color it again, 4 or 5 strokes, put it back into the knife and test.

I repeated that like 7 or 8 times until I get it goes a little farther to the right as shown in the picture. I think I kept the original angle of the grind the knife came with.

I can say the original knife grind like (b) in the picture that is slanted down to the left a little. I think my guess is correct.

As for wearing out faster grinding like (b). I can say, in between grinds, I really try to move the frame lock back and fore hoping to wear it out. I must have done at least 100 in between each grind. I can tell you id DID NOT WEAR DOWN EVEN A SINGLE BIT. The liner is a lot more resilient than people think, you have to grind it.

 

[alan0354]

I have a Camillus Cuda Dominator assisted framelock that I'd bought as-new some years ago, via a reseller. It's nicely-built knife, EXCEPT for the fact that the lockup is too loose & sloppy - it rattles as the blade bounces against the end of the framelock, when I shake it. Every time I handle that knife, I'm convinced it would've been much better if it came to me a little too tight. At least that way, I could just let it wear in with some use. But there's no way to add metal back into that lockup, if too much is taken off trying to fix it.

As others have said here, I'd be a lot more inclined to leave it be and let it wear in. Lubricate it with some graphite in the short-term. If you go just a hair too far in taking metal off, it's unfixable after that.

I checked, that's a very expensive knife you have. If it were new, you should have sent it back!!! Like you said, if the liner is too short, you cannot add to it.