They already ARE putting camera manufacturers out of business -- at least in the low-to-mid range! Even entry-level DSLRs are going away.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Advice need on what angle to put on the frame lock
- Thread starter alan0354
- Start date
Damn, mine is NOT entry level already!!! They can put mine away!!!
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2014
- Messages
- 1,040
thx jbmonkey, nice read by Bernard Levine! Always like how expert witnesses, patent holders, makers, engineers, etc. write and speak. Saw Michael interviewed several years ago when looking at a a couple different used Solingen Bokers he designed.
(Watched NASA Q and A of teams responsible for Artimas and Orion fly by for several hours now, because it feels like a breath of fresh air, with each person speaking out of a deep well of detailed understanding).
Yea, expert witnesses good, hot air bad, way to much hot air going around if you ask me. At least the experts have left us a solid record for liner and frame locks to review as we climb those two learning curves. I like stout back locks and bar locks like Benchmade's, but folder locks in general, ancient and just invented are almost as interesting as steels
I read through the article:https://www.knife-expert.com/liners.txt
Actually my first post comes close, I drew in (b) with liner slanted opposite from the tank, (a) slanted with the tank.
This is part of the article:
SELF-ADJUSTMENT
This strength turned out to be a fringe benefit of Walker's self-adjusting design. He based this design upon the simplest of all mechanisms, the inclined plane, or wedge. The end of the tang is slightly beveled. The end of the liner is not (although it can be, as long as the angles do not match). Both parts must be hard. When the blade is opened all the way, the liner passes the inner edge of the tang, but it is stopped before it passes the outer edge. The liner's leading edge bears on the beveled end of the tang. If the pivot joint loosens over time, the point of engagement of the lock-up moves further along the bevel, so it continues to lock up tight.
He said the angle of the liner and the tank should NOT match(like in (a) in my first post. That the leading edge of the liner(the right side) touch the tang.
Be that I drew (b) more exaggerated, the idea is there.
You can see the picture in post #17 after I grind the liner, it's only very slightly slanted, not exaggerated like in the drawing.
Also I posted in post #23 the picture of the liner from a knife I did NOT grind, it's original. It show the only leading edge( left side because it's up side down) show the wear mark.
These are all very common sense engineering that I got before I read anything. This is not Rocket science.
When the leading edge wears, the liner just move further to the right and get better lock like what the article said.
Actually my first post comes close, I drew in (b) with liner slanted opposite from the tank, (a) slanted with the tank.
This is part of the article:
SELF-ADJUSTMENT
This strength turned out to be a fringe benefit of Walker's self-adjusting design. He based this design upon the simplest of all mechanisms, the inclined plane, or wedge. The end of the tang is slightly beveled. The end of the liner is not (although it can be, as long as the angles do not match). Both parts must be hard. When the blade is opened all the way, the liner passes the inner edge of the tang, but it is stopped before it passes the outer edge. The liner's leading edge bears on the beveled end of the tang. If the pivot joint loosens over time, the point of engagement of the lock-up moves further along the bevel, so it continues to lock up tight.
He said the angle of the liner and the tank should NOT match(like in (a) in my first post. That the leading edge of the liner(the right side) touch the tang.
Be that I drew (b) more exaggerated, the idea is there.
You can see the picture in post #17 after I grind the liner, it's only very slightly slanted, not exaggerated like in the drawing.
Also I posted in post #23 the picture of the liner from a knife I did NOT grind, it's original. It show the only leading edge( left side because it's up side down) show the wear mark.
These are all very common sense engineering that I got before I read anything. This is not Rocket science.
When the leading edge wears, the liner just move further to the right and get better lock like what the article said.
Last edited:
It should not slant the same way, if the left is longer, the engagement is to the left, close to the opening side, that would be dangerous. You want to engage as deep as possible under the tank.
Like I showed in the picture of the wear mark of a liner that I did NOT modify in post#23, the wear mark is on the far edge deep under the tank. Also look at post#88 of MolokaiRider knife, it is slanted the way I described. Go check other knives and let me know.
J. Doyle
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 8,181
It doesn't make any difference which way the entire face of the lock bar is ground...... matching the TANG (positive angle), opposite the TANG (negative angle) or square to the TANG.
As long as the contact area is on the inside/leading edge of the lockbar. So even locks that appear to have a positive (matching) angle to the TANG, probably doesn't touch anywhere except on the leading edge.
So you haven't really discovered anything new here. Makers of liner and frame locks have known this for a long time.
And you do know it's "tang" and not "tank", right?......after all, this isn't rocket science.
Did I ever said I "discover" anything. This is very simple stuff, it just came to my mind at the time and I created this thread as a discussion. You take such a small thing and talk about discovery? You really need to open your eyes to the big world!!!
Yes, the contact has to be on the far side, but why do you want to grind the liner positive and take a chance? The liner is bent towards the right and it forms an angle, you want to slant negatively with angle slight larger than the angle of the liner to GUARANTY the contact to the tang is on the leading edge. Too much negative is safer than not enough. This is so so simple if you STOP and think, you should see that. AND NO, this is NOT an invention, just common sense in high school level!!! In real world, I bet those knife makers just grind it level( easiest), they know the tang of the blade is slanted positive and larger angle than the liner slanted to the right. So pretty much guaranty contact on the far edge.
Read carefully and follow what I said, you are quite slow. If you are confused, ask. I can draw picture for you.
Last edited:
Now, this is just one more step into this discussion of the liner lock. The force applies to the liner, which can affect how tough the liner has to be. AGAIN, this is NOT a DISCOVERY, it's just another factor the knife makers must know already, I am just talking this out and see if anyone is interested to look at it.
Below are simplified diagrams of the blade in BROAD SIDE VIEW with sharp edge on the LEFT and the spine of the blade on the right as shown in (d).
painfull poetry
If you look at drawing (d), you see the blade that is anchor at the PIVOT point "O". You see the liner in(GREEN) that prevent the blade from rotating COUNTER CLOCKWISE. The length of the blade from tip to PIVOT "O" has length of "L". The length from "O" to the farthest point of the liner is "R" shown.
In drawing (e), I show only the force and length to simplify. You see the APPLY FORCE "F" to the tip of the blade 90deg to the blade shown to attempt to rotate the blade in counter clockwise direction shown in dotted arrow. The force "T" is right angle to "R" as shown. Just simple physics T=F X (L/R). This mean for blade length L, the shorter R is, the more rotation force experience on the liner.
In drawing (f), I further separate the "T" into downward force "V" and horizontal force in GREEN ( which I don't care for now). I call angle show "Theta". You can see the downward force V = T cos(Theta). Therefore V=F x (L/R) cos(Theta).
Meaning the stress on the liner depends on the blade length L vs R, and less obvious but just as or more importantly, depends on angle Theta.
Again, I did NOT discover anything here, just reverse engineering what the knife designer and get a better feeling what to look out. The designer had to consider this already. These are VERY SIMPLE STUFFS. Just something to talk about if anyone is interested in this.
Below are simplified diagrams of the blade in BROAD SIDE VIEW with sharp edge on the LEFT and the spine of the blade on the right as shown in (d).
painfull poetryIf you look at drawing (d), you see the blade that is anchor at the PIVOT point "O". You see the liner in(GREEN) that prevent the blade from rotating COUNTER CLOCKWISE. The length of the blade from tip to PIVOT "O" has length of "L". The length from "O" to the farthest point of the liner is "R" shown.
In drawing (e), I show only the force and length to simplify. You see the APPLY FORCE "F" to the tip of the blade 90deg to the blade shown to attempt to rotate the blade in counter clockwise direction shown in dotted arrow. The force "T" is right angle to "R" as shown. Just simple physics T=F X (L/R). This mean for blade length L, the shorter R is, the more rotation force experience on the liner.
In drawing (f), I further separate the "T" into downward force "V" and horizontal force in GREEN ( which I don't care for now). I call angle show "Theta". You can see the downward force V = T cos(Theta). Therefore V=F x (L/R) cos(Theta).
Meaning the stress on the liner depends on the blade length L vs R, and less obvious but just as or more importantly, depends on angle Theta.
Again, I did NOT discover anything here, just reverse engineering what the knife designer and get a better feeling what to look out. The designer had to consider this already. These are VERY SIMPLE STUFFS. Just something to talk about if anyone is interested in this.
Last edited:
J. Doyle
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 8,181
Where did I say that I do? You have no idea how I grind it because I haven't said. But I'll say it now....I use a negative angle.
Can't wait to see all the amazing folders you'll build soon since this is so easy and you have it all figured out.
Who are "those knife makers"? And you don't really know what "they" do or what's "easiest" because you haven't built a knife. But it's not rocket science so I'm sure you'll have zero issues.
Ironic statement coming from someone that is confused on proper terms and even things like left and right apparently. It is indeed hard to follow what you say at times because you seem to either flip flop or contradict yourself.
Nah.....I'm not confused on anything regarding making folders. I won't be needing any advice from you.
Last edited:
J. Doyle
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 8,181
Now, this is just one more step into this discussion of the liner lock. The force applies to the liner, which can affect how tough the liner has to be. AGAIN, this is NOT a DISCOVERY, it's just another factor the knife makers must know already, I am just talking this out and see if anyone is interested to look at it.
Below are simplified diagrams of the blade in BROAD SIDE VIEW with sharp edge on the LEFT and the spine of the blade on the right as shown in (d).
If you look at drawing (d), you see the blade that is anchor at the PIVOT point "O". You see the liner in(GREEN) that prevent the blade from rotating COUNTER CLOCKWISE. The length of the blade from tip to PIVOT "O" has length of "L". The length from "O" to the farthest point of the liner is "R" shown.
In drawing (e), I show only the force and length to simplify. You see the APPLY FORCE "F" to the tip of the blade 90deg to the blade shown to attempt to rotate the blade in counter clockwise direction shown in dotted arrow. The force "T" is right angle to "R" as shown. Just simple physics T=F X (L/R). This mean for blade length L, the shorter R is, the more rotation force experience on the liner.
In drawing (f), I further separate the "T" into downward force "V" and horizontal force in GREEN ( which I don't care for now). I call angle show "Theta". You can see the downward force V = T cos(Theta). Therefore V=F x (L/R) cos(Theta).
Meaning the stress on the liner depends on the blade length L vs R, and less obvious but just as or more importantly, depends on angle Theta.
Again, I did NOT discover anything here, just reverse engineering what the knife designer and get a better feeling what to look out. The designer had to consider this already. These are VERY SIMPLE STUFFS. Just something to talk about if anyone is interested in this.
I bet you don't understand any of those.
That's what you said:
Why do you want to make it positive? I don't mean YOU grind, just why anyone want to make it positive?
Who said I make knives? Why do I want to get into these simple stuffs that is NOT even challenging. I just got into knives for self defense and at the mean time trying to understand the mechanical design of it. That's why I start discussion here THINKING there are people that are into this. Did not expect people like you that mock and DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.
You are slow, the easiest way to cut the edge is to lay the sheet flat and use a milling machine just go down and mill out the shape with the side that is vertical( perpendicular to the surface of the sheet). No positive or negative.
BTW, making knives does NOT mean you UNDERSTAND the basic physics how to optimize the structure. That's the problem. People do this kind of work likely don't have education to really get into the mechanical design. People that can really design don't want to get into these manual labor stuff in hot condition, hammering and all that. Look at Forge In Fire, it's interesting to watch, BUT do I want to do that? HELL NO. They should have ENGINEER design and hire a blacksmith to do the manual labor.
Ha ha, I said I only got into this for like a month, of cause I don't know all the terms. In another month, I will forget all the terms once I got through buying all the knives and optimize them. You really think I care to do this in long term?
I know you keep making and making folders without really understand how to optimizing them. Like in Forge In Fire, they might have good technique as a blacksmith, but you seriously think they know how to optimize in terms of mechanical or physics? They just bang it out with the given the parameters. Other than heat treating, I did enough work in the machine shop already. AND you seriously think I would abuse myself to get into heat treat with all the heat and banging.
BTW, FYI, these are patents SOLELY under my name:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7561438B1/en?inventor=yungman+liu&oq=yungman+liu
This one replacing a lot of mechanical components like springs, contacts and all that in the vacuum with just one circuit board.
https://patents.google.com/patent/U...yungman+alan+liu&oq=Inventor+yungman+alan+liu
This is noise cancellation for musical instruments.
You seriously think I don't understand simple knives? You seriously think I would want to become an "expert" in knives. Hell, I learn gun smithing and did a few and NEVER touch it anymore close to 30 years ago!!! This is so so much more advanced compare with knives, still it's too simple and boring for me after a few!!!
It's a different world out there, be humble and LEARN.
Last edited:
J. Doyle
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 8,181
No knifemaker uses or views a chart like that. It isn't necessary. It's comical that the guy who keeps insisting this isn't rocket science wants to over-complicate it with so much unnecessary math.
J. Doyle
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2008
- Messages
- 8,181
A
alan0354
I'll try to make this simple then I'm out.
You started a thread confused about what angle to grind the lock at. You asked for advice and opinions of those with experience. You made some false assumptions and generic blanket statements along the way that weren't true. When people that DO have folder making experience respond and you don't like the answer, you want to argue and act like you know all the answers and say how simple and easy knifemaking is, at the same time claiming you don't know knives.
I'm not sure why you started the thread in the first place if you have all the answers. But of the two of us, I'm the only one that's made any locking folders.
I've wasted too much time already on someone so obtuse and willfully ignorant on the subject.
I'm done.
I'll try to make this simple then I'm out.
You started a thread confused about what angle to grind the lock at. You asked for advice and opinions of those with experience. You made some false assumptions and generic blanket statements along the way that weren't true. When people that DO have folder making experience respond and you don't like the answer, you want to argue and act like you know all the answers and say how simple and easy knifemaking is, at the same time claiming you don't know knives.
I'm not sure why you started the thread in the first place if you have all the answers. But of the two of us, I'm the only one that's made any locking folders.
I've wasted too much time already on someone so obtuse and willfully ignorant on the subject.
I'm done.
You never contribute anything other than say no. You don't have any answer. That's the worst kind. If you don't know, don't come here and talk smack.
I really don't know the answer at the beginning, like I said, I just started looking into this. But as time goes on, I got my answer since nobody here seems to know.
Like I said, making it blindly doesn't mean you know. You can't even contribute anything other than smack. I hope people here know how much you know now. I don't care, you think I am going to hang around here that long?
You question whether knife making is simple, you really show me already. All you do is trial and error, blindly do it. Keep doing it, of cause something will come out. How good it is is another story. I take that you sell a lot of your knives and have a big name. What is the brand?
You confirm my believe. Like I said, knife making is ONLY blacksmith that knows heat treat. I don't expect you know those. You know those are high school stuffs. Anyone that gone through high school and learn something will understand that. It's simple!!!
BTW, I did NOT say I know the answer. I don't, I draw it out the best I can and see anyone here has anything to say whether I am right or wrong. Just like my first post here. I did not have the answer when I first posted. It's a working progress.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2014
- Messages
- 1,287
Hi
Here you go
Kyley Harris "cKc" https://www.youtube.com/@knivesandstuff
if you imagine taking a normal slanted framelock, but place a "wall" at the end so that it cannot go further, or bind up.. then concave out the centre of the lockface, and convex the lockbar so that under force it cannot slide off. All energy pushes the lock inwards to the centre.
The design is, rather than preventing lock rock, to guarantee that it will never bind up and jam, and never come off the lock (unless destructive force is applied).
cKc L-EDC Frame Lock (Harder Use) - YouTube
My last frame lock - YouTube
Background / history, pay special attention to comments by cKc and the late Dr Cliff Stamp
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?20,32538 Strongest Lock/Folder
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,55617 Chris Reeve Sebenza 21 fail...
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,57856 New Lockbar design and Lock insert by M. Willumsen
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?3,8703 Just Testing
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,60674 Framelocks are not very safe
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/faq/lock.tests.html Liner lock FAQ by Joe Talmadge
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,32313,32372 Blade HQ tests some locks to destruction on YouTube
Here you go
Kyley Harris "cKc" https://www.youtube.com/@knivesandstuff
if you imagine taking a normal slanted framelock, but place a "wall" at the end so that it cannot go further, or bind up.. then concave out the centre of the lockface, and convex the lockbar so that under force it cannot slide off. All energy pushes the lock inwards to the centre.
The design is, rather than preventing lock rock, to guarantee that it will never bind up and jam, and never come off the lock (unless destructive force is applied).
Background / history, pay special attention to comments by cKc and the late Dr Cliff Stamp
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?20,32538 Strongest Lock/Folder
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,55617 Chris Reeve Sebenza 21 fail...
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,57856 New Lockbar design and Lock insert by M. Willumsen
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?3,8703 Just Testing
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,60674 Framelocks are not very safe
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/faq/lock.tests.html Liner lock FAQ by Joe Talmadge
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,32313,32372 Blade HQ tests some locks to destruction on YouTube
Last edited:
In my opinion, absolute lock strength is WAY overrated. Why? Because as a rule, when you're applying maximum force to a knife it isn't the lock that's preventing failure -- it's the stop pin(s) or blade stops. The lock prevents the blade from closing when pressure is applied to the spine. In ordinary use ... not a lot of pressure is being applied to the spine. I guess the main exception would be when you get the blade stuck in something, but even then ... you're going to rock it out rather than trying to muscle it straight out.