AEB-L and S35VN comparison

samuraistuart

samuraistuart

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Dec 21, 2006
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So the title of my subject may have some saying.....NO COMPARISON!!! That may be the case! Having zero experience with S35VN in any knife, hand made or factory, those of you who do use it quite regularly (Is there a Mr Apelt in the house?), I am most concerned with a super keen edge and how well that edge is kept. Does the S35VN (with that load of vanadium) take an AEB-L type of an edge? And how is that edge retention in your book? And finally....is it easy to resharpen as AEB-L and carbon steel?

Thank you for your thoughts. I know this is sort of subjective in a way, but would like to get a feel for S35VN, or actually I like the formulation of S30V a little better, as a potential candidate to play with down the road once I become "stainless ready". Along with the AEB-L.
 
I don't have Mr. Apelt's experience, but my observation is the S35VN will never get the edge AEB-L can. If you are only sharpening to 1200g, you probably won't notice much difference. When I go up to 8000g stones, the AEB-L is comparable to a fine high carbon steel. S35VN isn't. I never tried to figure out what max sharpness is on my equipment, as the guys asking for the S35VN only want their knives sharpened to 1200g (for skinners.- Some locals feel too sharp isn't good.)
 
I really must try this AEB-L. I've literally read nothing but positive things about it and it is frequently mentioned along side the so called Super Steels.

S35VN, at least heat treated the way Chris Reeve does it, is surprisingly easy to sharpen. Much more so than the S30V that I've used.
 
AEB-L is one of the lowest alloy stainless steels. It doesn't have the wear resistance the higher alloy steels have. That's the trade off for the super fine edge.
 
It works pretty good at high harnednesses on kitchen knives and obviously razor blades. At more moderate harnesses though where you wouldn't be able to use a very fine acute edge, you would probably be better off with a different steel. Good for what it's good for though, and cheap / easy to work.
 
AEB-L, the new Super Steel!!!!!!

..............patented in 1928, BTW......

I just ordered a chunk from Aldo and can't wait to work with it :)
 
I discussed this exact comparison with Roman Landes a year or so ago. He said that AEB-L is the best in his opinion, but both make very good slicing blades....which is what they excel at.

S35VN gets pretty darn sharp, has a cornucopia of carbide ingredients for toughness ( really tough in use), and thus has a great edge life.
AEB-L has very fine grain and will get extremely sharp ( sharpest potential of all stainless steels). It will require more advanced sharpening techniques to get to its maximum potential. It will require re-sharpening more often (especially if used at extreme thinness and sharpness).

AEB-L is basically 1070 steel with 13% chromium ( just enough to make it stainless). 440-C has about 1.0-1.2% carbon, and 17-18% chromium ( more stainless, and increased toughness). S35VN has about 1.3% carbon 14% chromium, and 3% vanadium, and about .5% each of Ni, Nb, Co, and W. (all add extra toughness)

In his micrographs, Roman showed how fine AEB-L can be taken. A zero edge done in a lab to 100,000 grit showed that compared to 440-C stainless steel, AEB-L looked like a hack saw blade being compared to a rip saw blade.

Lets be honest, though .... Most any good grade knife steel will make an excellent knife blade with proper HT, geometry, and sharpening skills. The much maligned 440-C will make a wonderful blade.
If you want extra toughness and edge life , go with higher/larger carbides. If you want slicing, go for steels with smaller/less carbides and finer grain. CPM steels ( powder metallurgy) will keep grain size smaller. With the exception of extreme use knives ( cutting contest, professional all day use, etc.) most any steel can get to shaving sharp and keep a decent edge.
 
Thanks everyone. AEBLs chemistry has my curiosity. While I sure do like the advantages that the harder carbides offer, something about a super fine grain steel appeals to me in the kitchen....even if it needs to be sharpened a bit more often. Something about the 440C just doesn't appeal to me. Maybe it is nothing more than the "440" label stuck in my head, equating it with the generic stainless steel on cheapo knives, which it certainly is not.

Stacy is right...most any of the steels available to us today, with proper geometry and heat treat will make a superb slicing knife.
 
440c is a great steel- it's just that CPM154 and 35VN are all that plus a bit better. What 440c does so well, these steels do just a bit better.
 
bladsmth said:
If you want extra toughness and edge life , go with higher/larger carbides. If you want slicing, go for steels with smaller/less carbides and finer grain. CPM steels ( powder metallurgy) will keep grain size smaller. With the exception of extreme use knives ( cutting contest, professional all day use, etc.) most any steel can get to shaving sharp and keep a decent edge.
Click to expand...

Can you clarify what you mean by toughness here? Do you know where I can find the grain size for AEB-L, 13C26, and similar steels?
 
What I meant was:
For extremely tough blades that will get heavy use and chopping, steels with higher amounts of larger carbide formers will be better choices. The larger carbides will give longer edge life and impact resistance.
For blades that will slice and not chop, go for finer grain and don't worry as much about complex carbides. These steels normally have only as much carbide formers as needed, and the ones are usually the type to make smaller carbides.

I don't know the grain size of AEB-L, but it is the smallest of the stainless steels as far as I understand Roman's charts.
 
So more and larger carbides give better impact resistance? That is to say, something like ingot D2 or 440C would be good for a cleaver? Are Roman's charts published on other sites or in his book? I've been looking for that information on stainless steels for a while. Even when Verhoeven did his edge wear comparison between 52100 and AEB-L, he determined grain size for 52100, but not for AEB-L, for whatever reason.
 
I can visually see why larger carbide steels will not take as fine of an edge as small grain steels...and I can certainly see why those carbides will increase edge retention, even tho the edge may not be a super duper razor type edge. I did not know that the larger carbide structure offers better impact performance, tho. Very interesting indeed. Always learning from you guys!!!
 
A while back started to make what I call folding hunters. The blades run 3 1/2" - 4" and from about .116 - .140 in thickness. Some flat ground and some hollow. I used several steel types to come up with what might help me decide what was the best choice as I saw it. I live in a country where moose hunting is very popular and have encouraged hunters that I talk with to get an inexpensive folding saw like those sold for "camping" with a fiberglass handle. So having explained my view on the tools I like to see I believe the ABLE is the steel to use. It does the flesh cutting so well but is also so much easier to sharpen. Yes I did try the S35VN and was not at all impressed with it. I would go back to M390 or Elmax if I couldn't get the ABLE. Frank
 
Me2 has excellent info there. I was oversimplifying, and probably not stating it well. I was using "tough" in the generic sense, not the testing sense.

What I was getting at is there are steels, like S125V, that are super wear resistant but not very tough, and other steels, like 3V, that are the opposite. Both will be considered "tough" steels in general.
I find that S35VN has the best balance of both.

There is an excellent chart in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...osing-a-new-steel-for-marketing-reasons/page2
 
I heavily disagree with that chart and believe that its basically Crucible hype. There are several discrepancies but the main one I see is the difference between regular D2 and the CPM version. There is no way they can more than double the toughness just by switching to the PM version.
 
Here is my opinion on the 2 steels in question. AEB-L for kitchen knives, S35VN for hunting/skinning knives. High sharpness on food and processed meat vs high wear for dirty, yet soft, fur and tissue. Take care with bones.

As for the chart, remember that CPM has never claimed an overall increase in toughness, but does claim, and rightfully so, an increase in transverse toughness over ingot/rolled versions of the same steel. So doubling toughness is possible, as long as the samples are cut across the rolling direction and not parallel to it. Parallel toughness is the same. See Crucuble's comparissons of S30V to 440C in the S30V data sheets.
 
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