African Blackwood vs Ebony

[glennbad]

Not to argue with an entire thread, sorry guys, but the old growth ebony has a much tighter grain and can be far blacker than any blackwood could ever match. Ever see a nice old Steinway piano c.1900 roughly. Ebony is by far the premium. Comparing new ebony and blackwood is apples and oranges compared to old ebony and blackwood.

This has been my experience also (although limited compared to others' years). The newer ebony has much more color to it.

However, both woods are very solid, and although tougher to work with, produce great results!

 

[arizonaranchman]

Wow I feel like I've earned a Degree in Blackwoods here lol...

Amazing info!! Thanks to all who've contributed. I now appreciate these woods more than ever.

African Blackwood

 

[Hammer67]

Great, informative thread. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

I don't own any AB-handled knives, but I love the ebony #15-EO and the ebony #25 that I have. Out of curiosity, can anyone shed more light on where "black and white" ebony falls in mix?

 

[Windwhistler]

I have owned Bagpipes made of both ebony and african blackwood (which is standard). Bagpipes made of blackwood are polished to a sheen and oiled from time to time down the bore like all woodwind instruments. But they are hard and stable with no exterior finish at all. Ebony pipes are all sealed on the exterior which is because they will otherwise collect moisture and humidity from the outside. I am told by makers that some kind of laquer is always necessary on ebony to stabilize it. I assume knife handles would be the same.

 

[Gevonovich]

Here is a old A. W. Wadsworth

An old NYKCo with brown in it

VS a ROMO

 

[ptradeco]

Application of a material is always key to suitability. Bagpipes and knives have a very different set of requirements. Although some of the rational is acceptable.

I would point to mid 19th century finds of goods destined for the new frontier that did not make it. There are a number of sternwheeler salvages from the Missouri River that contained cases of knives, halved in ebony, buried in water, mud, etc. for over a 150 years, that have survived intact. By intact I mean the scales survived and nothing else! The blades are completely GONE, but the handles of ebony are still intact nearly as new!

This alone does not mean that ebony was the superior material available for knife handle construction but these folk were not idiots and if blackwood, cocabola, redwood, teak, etc. were a better material they would have used it. Mostly import, and cost not really being much of a consideration, why bother. Does one think that if Steinway had thought blackwood was superior that they would not have used it.

There are many reasons for this and one needs to look at forest management practices to get at the real answers as they pertain to today. Old growth ebony (slow growth) is virtually unrivaled in quality by any measure. BTW, there is none of this left. The only way you can even obtain it is to buy a 100+ year old Steinway, or similar, and cut it up. Some old woodwinds. The occasional piece of furniture surfaces now and then, end tables etc. I know of a large dining table currently for sale of old ebony. Priced at a mid-range Ferrari. I don't think GEC or Queen is likely to use that.

 

[arizonaranchman]

I have owned Bagpipes made of both ebony and african blackwood (which is standard). Bagpipes made of blackwood are polished to a sheen and oiled from time to time down the bore like all woodwind instruments. But they are hard and stable with no exterior finish at all. Ebony pipes are all sealed on the exterior which is because they will otherwise collect moisture and humidity from the outside. I am told by makers that some kind of laquer is always necessary on ebony to stabilize it. I assume knife handles would be the same.

An interesting perspective here. Woodwind instruments definitely experience repeated exposure long-term to moisture and handling, so this is certainly a testimony to African Blackwood.

 

[arizonaranchman]

Gevonovich,

Wow great pics of some beautiful original old knives!!

Brad,

Fascinating info on Ebony. But at the same time it sounds like the Ebony you refer to is nearly non-existent today in practical terms. Is today's modern Ebony still superior to AB? Are they about on par now? Or perhaps AB eclipses the modern Ebonies made today?

Thanks for the info on this all of you, this is a great thread!

 

[coyote711]

Holy cow (!) there have been some fabulous pictures posted in this thread, not to mention a wealth of history and information! There's just something about the combination of Ebony and Nickel Silver that says "Old school, no-nonsense, last forever, working mans knife". And it's beautiful to boot! Thanks again to all who have contributed!

 

[arizonaranchman]

Here is blade fully locked. The LL tab can be seen in it's "locked" position.

Here the LL is disengaged and thumb no longer needs to be in the path of the closing blade from this point on. (10-20% is probably more accurate than my original estimate of 5-10% above).

 

[jon_slider]

can anyone shed more light on where "black and white" ebony falls in mix?

According to this link, it is softer, 51 lbs per cubic foot, it would float.
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/black-and-white-ebony/

Bagpipes made of blackwood are polished to a sheen and oiled from time to time down the bore like all woodwind instruments. But they are hard and stable with no exterior finish at all. Ebony pipes are all sealed on the exterior which is because they will otherwise collect moisture and humidity from the outside. I am told by makers that some kind of laquer is always necessary on ebony to stabilize it.

Thanks for sharing that info, very interesting to me. I looked up the density of laquer, it is 56 pounds per cubic foot.. lighter than water. So its being used as a sealant. I would have thought oil would work as well. Since you oil the bore of ebony pipes, I wonder why it would not work to oil the outside, like we do with knives?

fwiw, the density of mineral oil is 50 lbs per cu ft, very close to lacquer. Some of us also use waxes on our woods. I mention these just as sealants, although it seems to me that Ebony is very durable, even uncoated, unoiled, unstabilized.

One reason I think Ebony is and was popular as a knife handle is because of its high density/weight. Being heavier than water, it resists rotting. If you look at this chart you will see the only wood that compares in density to Ebony is Lignum Vitae (and African Blackwood which is not listed there). Neither, Oak, Ash, Elm, Yew, Cherry or Walnut are even close, those being European woods that might have been used without importing from Africa. And there definitely are knives with oak handles, which is impressively durable in its own right, even though most Oaks have a density of less than 50 pounds per cubic foot.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-density-d_40.html
you will see Ebony is denser that just about everything else

Is today's modern Ebony still superior to AB?

AB is denser than Ebony, hence superior in hardness. But maybe you are asking which is blacker? In any case, even ebony with chocolate stripes is dense and durable. Also true for Blackwood with chocolate swirls.

 

[phillipsted]

I've used a number of different ebonys for knife scales as well as African Blackwood. I'm not a fan of Gaboon ebony - the color is nice, bit it tends to be a bit brittle and can chip easily when you work it aggressively. The two-toned striped ebony can also be a bit tricky - if you aren't careful during sanding and finishing, the dark parts of the wood can stain the lighter parts, making a bit of a mess (probably from black dust getting in the pores of the lighter wood).

Now Blackwood is something entirely different. It is a relative of the rosewood family and it feels and works a lot more like rosewood than ebony. It is very hard, very oily, and very even grained. It can dull your tools, but it works nicely and takes an even lustrous finish. I'm a fan.

TedP

 

[lambertiana]

KP - That 73 with macassar looks great! That is what macassar should look like.

I have a small quantity of gabon ebony that rivals the old growth; in the pic below I had the knife in the center rehandled with some of it. It's hard to find ebony of this quality.

 

[arizonaranchman]

"TedP,

Now Blackwood is something entirely different. It is a relative of the rosewood family and it feels and works a lot more like rosewood than ebony. It is very hard, very oily, and very even grained. It can dull your tools, but it works nicely and takes an even lustrous finish. I'm a fan."

Wow noticeably oily? (Lending to it's excellent moisture resistance)... Dulls the tools??? Wow!!! Pretty amazing stuff.

 

[JSCHENK]

Great, informative thread. Thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

I don't own any AB-handled knives, but I love the ebony #15-EO and the ebony #25 that I have. Out of curiosity, can anyone shed more light on where "black and white" ebony falls in mix?

The "black and white" are the heart and sap wood parts of the tree. the older inside portion of the tree is called the heart wood for ebony and other dark woods that heart is the colored wood, I believe colored from the storage of the various minerals and nutrients, ect. the Sap wood refers to the new growth that has yet to be converted to heart wood. this being whitish or yellow in color. When both are present in a particular piece of wood that piece of wood came right from the transition in the tree, some sap wood and some heart wood, often giving a very beautiful contrast as the knife you pictured does. This can be found in all species of wood.

 

[lambertiana]

jschenk - This is not true for black & white ebony. What you see there is heartwood, not a mix of heartwood and sapwood. Black & white ebony heartwood looks like this. This is actually not that different from some of the highly figured macassar, with swirls of both lighter and darker regions. With black & white ebony, the lighter areas are a lot lighter than what you see with macassar, but it is still heartwood. Here is a pic of a piece of black & white ebony:

 

[Hammer67]

This thread is a perfect example of why I love this forum.

 

[arizonaranchman]

Note:

Sorry all, Post #50 was meant for an entirely different thread! How I put it in this thread I guess I wasn't paying attention... Anyways sorry for the off-topic post lol

 

[Coopsta]

This alone does not mean that ebony was the superior material available for knife handle construction but these folk were not idiots and if blackwood, cocabola, redwood, teak, etc. were a better material they would have used it.

To be fair, African blackwood was considered an ebony until quite recently so who knows how many ebony knives from old times actually use that species. Unless these these knives have been identified otherwise of course.

 

[KrisNZ]

Some random ebony/blackwood pic's for your viewing pleasure,......

( I hope the non knife pic's are OK, they seem topical)

Kris,.