Aftermarket in the Toilet?

Martin,

First, who are you? I realize you would prefer to hide behind a screen name.

Collector or maker?

Your observations are clear as mud. The knives just sit and sit on my web site? Really?

Makes you wonder how I can pay my bills and stay in business.

Please feel free to use the ignore button.....for Blade Forums. As post after post by you are filled with nothing but supposition and inaccuracies. Which adds nothing to the discussion.

I'll be waiting to read who you are and what your relationship is to custom knives.

Les, I am not hiding behind anything, especially a screen name. I am a collector of a few makers and have around twenty five custom knives. As long as you feel the need to toss out accusations regarding hiding behind screen names maybe you can explain who "WOODWORKGHOST" is and who was hiding behind that name. Do you expect me to use my "real" name and if so why would it be necessary?

Also, I really don't care how you pay your bills, whether you do or not isn't my business or my problem. Regarding the knives sitting on your website forever, maybe you can explain why the Boguszewski King Classic and the Stiletto "presentation folders" have been listed for sale for six months or longer. The same question applies to lots of other knives on your site. Considering your self proclaimed business acumen, what is happening? Aren't the knives priced right? Those knives seem to sell quickly on other sites, Arizona Custom Knives, Steel Addiction, etc. Why not on yours? Your website photos do not make the condition of the knife obvious, I mentioned this to you once before and you told me all your knives are the same as new by maker unless stated otherwise. That is a little hard to believe, if it were the case don't you think they would move a little quicker?

Les, I bought a knife from you once, it arrived and it was not in like new condition so I sent it back. It took you about two weeks to process the credit, after I emailed you to ask about the credit you had the nerve to email back and ask me if "I had done anything to the knife". Is that your idea of building relationships with your customers? Not very smart in my opinion.

Getting back to custom knife sales and the aftermarket, I stand by my original observations in this thread. At the Chicago show purveyor sales were disappointing and many makers sales were slow. I'm sure you can find exceptions to that but it is generally accurate whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

Les, don't you think it's a little childish to tell me to stay away from Bladeforums? As in "Please feel free to use the ignore button .... for Bladeforums". I guess your idea of a discussion is to tell someone to get lost when they don't agree with you. :jerkit:
 
Hi Martinr. Believe me, it is so much easier just to put him on ignore. It's like putting a muzzle on the class loudmouth, it really works. While now and then his contributions can be meaningful, why bother - when it means one must also deal with his his egoistic critques of others.
 
Martin,

Ok, so you will continue to hide.

It is interesting that you take so much interest in my business.

My point as to how I pay my bills was in reference to your comment that I appear not be selling very many knives. Obviously if I am not selling knives...I can't pay my bills.

Regarding the Bogi's. The knives are consignment knives. The prices are set by the consignee not me. Of course you didn't know that..nor did you take the time to find out.

Your knowledge of my business is very limited. Which your comments here show.

Tell you what, you tell me who you are and what knife you bought and I will post my side of the story.

You obviously have an axe to grind. Instead of dealing with me directly. You have chosen to take the cowards way out. Post anonymously which allows you to only give your side of the story.
 
Martin,

Ok, so you will continue to hide.

It is interesting that you take so much interest in my business.

My point as to how I pay my bills was in reference to your comment that I appear not be selling very many knives. Obviously if I am not selling knives...I can't pay my bills.

Regarding the Bogi's. The knives are consignment knives. The prices are set by the consignee not me. Of course you didn't know that..nor did you take the time to find out.

Your knowledge of my business is very limited. Which your comments here show.

Tell you what, you tell me who you are and what knife you bought and I will post my side of the story.

You obviously have an axe to grind. Instead of dealing with me directly. You have chosen to take the cowards way out. Post anonymously which allows you to only give your side of the story.

Les, your answer to my comments isn't worthy of a response. I'm taking betzners advice and putting you on ignore. Adios Amigo.
 
Well I must admit I wade into this with some hesitation--but it won't be the first time I should have kept my mouth shut.

No matter how we feel about knives, they are governed by market conditions and basic economics. Supply and demand. Oversupply = low prices. Low demand = low prices. High demand with short supply = very high prices.

Outside factors affect demand. A lot of collectors getting on board a single collector will increase demand. I remember makers that have drawings today that never got anyone's attention until passers-by realized that that maker's knives were in such demand that he had to have a drawing--so the passer-by runs up and puts his name in the drawing too. Not because he wants the knife--but because obviously everyone else wants it. Mob rule or herd mentality--it is all the same.

I see rational advertisers in knife magazines go to one magazine "because everyone else is there." In other markets advertisers like to go where their competition is not--but not in the knife game. Again, herd mentality.

Same way with shows. Everyone wants to go to the "good" show, not based on sales, or expenses, but because everyone else is there. The determination of a "good" show is usually based on what "good" makers are there. (All 20 of them).

So when we look at knife values in the aftermarket the herd factor has to be taking into account.

Real values of aftermarket knives are not based on wishing it so.

No matter how many rah-rah atta boys a photo of your knife on internet forums gets, or a delusional self-appraisal on knife value based on how good a friend you think you are with a maker, those are not realistic values.

Knives are like stock. The real value of a knife in the aftermarket depends totally on what someone is willing to pay on the day it is sold. What you paid means nothing in the final sale price.

It may affect your own peace of mind, or you confidence in your business judgment, or may even make you feel a little cocky if you picked right when you run it out on a spreadsheet. But it will not affect the final sale price.

In my most recent auction I had two knives a collector had purchased in the 1980's. A Loveless with Frank engraving he paid $550. Also included was a Sheldon Damascus Bowie. Sheldon had trained under Moran, was from Frederick, Maryland, and had sold that knife to the collector in the same year the collector had purchased the Loveless. The collector paid Sheldon $1250 for that knife. The Loveless brought over $5000 at auction, the Sheldon less than $800.00. Sheldon had dropped out of knifemaking in the 80s, and Loveless, well we all know about Loveless.

If the consignor had wanted $1250 as a reserve on his knife he would still be owning that knife. Does that mean the knife market is soft? From his standpoint if he only owned the Loveless the aftermarket is very strong. If he only had the Sheldon the aftermarket is horrible--and soft.

All this has to be taken into consideration when talking about the aftermarket.
There are few industries that do as much as they can to restrain an aftermarket as handmade knives. Knifemakers themselves complain about shows at which a seminar or event takes too many people out of the room, or a dealer is taking money out of their pockets. Dealers (and auctioneers) are the aftermarket.


A few weeks ago I had an auction with 179 knives and sold all but four. A recent auction by someone else had over 25% of the knives offered not meet reserve. If a knife doesn't meet reserve in a room full of knife collectors--then obviously the reserve was too high. Where else will you go to sell that knife? It would have to be someone who is not involved in the auction. So who do that leave? Someone who refuses to buy at auction, or someone so out of touch with prices that the don't keep up (in other words a--well let's just say someone that doesn't keep up. You can fill in your own blank there).

The vintage handmade market is heating up. One of the reasons is the knives are undervalued for what they are, at least to the collectors who have taken the time to research the history of modern handmade knives. Considering it is less than a 45 year history all it takes is a few old knife books, some back issues of the knife magazines, and some old Knifemaker's Guild directories, all readily available if you dig a little. If you bought vintage handmades a year ago, especially as closeouts from knife dealers who only deal in tacticals or hot-today knifemakers-the aftermarket is not soft--it is very hot.

But while those type knives are rising, they do not compare with the prices that the latest Mike Walker zipper brings. Does that reflect a soft aftermarket? I don't think so.

I had an old pocketknife trader tell me at a show over 30 years ago--"Son, if you're not selling knives then your prices are too damn high".

I think those wise words can be applied to any collector, dealer, or knifemaker.

If sales are slow, prices are too high. Lower them. If it is less than you paid--obviously you paid too much for what the knife is or who the maker is.
That does not take anything into consideration for ego or what you think the price should be--but those things never really affect the final price anyway.

Unfortunately it is that basic.

J. Bruce Voyles
 
Thread in the toilet?
Next time I start a thread, I will make sure that it has a more positive title. Perhaps that will enable it to avoid a negative conclusion:)
 
I spoke too soon: Nice contribution, Bruce:thumbup:
I Like basic!
 
Thanks for your time, Bruce. THAT was a valuable read. :D

Coop
 
Bruce,

There have been many discussions of the custom knife market on this forum.

There has never been a more accurate or simpler explanation than your resopnse. Anyone who collects custom knives should read it.

Jim Treacy
 
Thanks Bruce. I was waiting to hear something like that, on "vintage" knives. You clearly have the benefit of a long range view of things, which often gets lost in the "sky is falling" report here. I think everyone will appreciate your perspective. And, it is needed in these conversations!

Betzner & others: Let Les be Les. I think you dig too deep on the insults. I like the guy. Why, because he is interesting. He has a business, able to stay afloat, and be successful. He's not stealing money from old widows. Give him a break.

Les,
if you send out Christmas cards, (put the book in mine) The econ0my is in the toilet. ;)
David
 
Bruce,

I agree with much of what you are saying, but you sort of left out a pretty important observation.....

WRT collectors, SOME custom knives are so heinous, so ill conceived/executed, of such horrible materials, that NO one will purchase, said knives for ANY amount of money, even if they were free....auction or not.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Betzner & others: Let Les be Les. I think you dig too deep on the insults. I like the guy. Why, because he is interesting. He has a business, able to stay afloat, and be successful. He's not stealing money from old widows. Give him a break.
David

David, don't you think everyone should be held accountable for things they say, claims they make and things they do?

Perhaps you should continue to like/dis-like and agree with/dis-agree with who you choose and others will do the same.
 
Bruce,

I agree with much of what you are saying, but you sort of left out a pretty important observation.....

WRT collectors, SOME custom knives are so heinous, so ill conceived/executed, of such horrible materials, that NO one will purchase, said knives for ANY amount of money, even if they were free....auction or not.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

You should have your own newspaper column!!!!!!!!!:D
 
This thread has gone in many directions, some not are not in the least bit helpful. However, the post by Bruce and the last one by STeven (not that it is the only post from STeven in this thread that has been educational) really are very succinct and helpful.
 
Kevin,

I assume you were referring to the others that David mentioned. I hold myself accountable for everything I write and say.

If you want to disagree with what I have written then do so. Don't try to go through the back door.
 
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