Agent : Bob Dozier

[STR]

Sure I can make them out of anything. I've turned many fixed blades into fine folders. Oh, and yes it has a very strong lock on it. I cut my locks short and wide. They are pretty hard to push in compared to most commercial made ones but they don't close that way from pressure on the spine.

Send me some info on these M2 blades. Very interested in looking into that.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Neat little boat, some nice carvings. I'm trying to get into it, I'll post some of my stuff.

 

[Dalko]

Jeff Clark,

I want to say thank you for your explainations.

What do you do for a living? I'm just curious, feel free to not answer if you wish.

Have a nice day.

 

[knifetester]

Jeff Clark,

I want to say thank you for your explainations.

I absolutely agree, excellent explanation as usual Jeff. It is a special talent to make something complicated understandable by us lay people.

 

[Jeff Clark]

Dalko, Thanks for your comment. I'm an engineer these days. I design computer chips. My original degree is in physics, but I've also studied various types of engineering. I learned a lot of my practical material science while working for the Caltech physics department building submillimeter wavelength radio telescopes. When you build 10 ton structures and you are measuring things in thousanths of an inch you have to understand your basic principles. It helps when you are working for guys who know the stuff backwards and forwards.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I felt that you had to know that D2 steel ground that thin and at that Rc hardness would snap ...

I did it with a very similar tipped blade in D2 in the same review which didn't break, it isn't a "tactical" knife either.

I also really think you have a vastly different idea of what happened, it was shallow penetration in a piece of soft wood, not digging an arrow head out of a piece of seasoned oak. It is times like this I wish I had mpegs.

Plus this is a tactical/utility knife, you are really pushing limits here. If I did that with the potato peeler Alvin made you would have an arguement as I can see it not being reasonable to think anyone would think to do that with a 1/16" hollow ground blade, full distal taper on full hard 1095, especially with the way Alvin describes the performance.

So in that case you could argue that it was kind of a waste of time. However if I actually did that with Alvin's knife he would not get upset, and it certainly would not generate this type of reaction on rec.knives. He actually made a knife just like that for Swaim years back who in doing a review of *stainless* fillet knives did a corrosion soak on them and chucked Alvin's custom 1095 blade in and let it sit and rust for comparison. Alvin's responce was positive.

But this isn't the case here, yes you are familar with D2, yes so are a lot of people, not everyone is so informed, with this or other steels, so yes I do a lot of things that a lot of people will find obvious, not everyone has your level of experience, plus I don't think the label precludes it. Yes it might be meaningless to you, but it implies lots of things to lots of people.

What is your actual issue? In the review right after it is done it says that if you want to do significant tip work this isn't likely the knife and that if you have to do such carving you should cut rather than pry. This seems to be exactly what you are arguing in the above.

It doesn't go on a big rant about how this describes horrible performance. It is in fact only one small segment of the review. What you and Razorback have done in fact is highlighted this, shining a huge spot light on that one small detail. The constant rehashing, in fact you have done it in more than one thread, keeps raising the search engine link popularity, is this really what you wanted to achieve.

Instead of being a comment in the middle of the review, which somone would have had to read through the rest of it to find, you have taken it out and gave it pretty much a full thread all on its own on the highest indexed website for knives.

I know guys that have broken the tips of their D2 knives from Bob, from Knives of Alaska and other makers using this steel just trying to stick them into a log or rough sawn table top while they were using it so they could free both hands up temporarily.

Unless there is a significant distal taper which leads the main body of the blade to bend and thus break that looks like a problem with the steel. Yes D2 has a low impact toughness, but it should not be that brittle. I have used a lot of it, and have stabbed it into concrete let alone wood :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/deerhunters.html

The Deerhunter certainly isn't an overbuilt pry bar either.

and :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322561

Cliff, why don't you post pics of you doing your testing.

If you don't believe I am doing what I say a picture should not convince you. I could cut a pile of rope, chop a pile of wood with knife etc., and then take another knife and do a series of staged "action" shots. I could even do really misrepresentative vids with not much more effort.

As for "believing" me, I really don't care. I don't write the reviews to convince you or anyone else of anything. There are done primarily for two reasons, first of all I am curious and second people ask me, makers and users and I don't mind as it is work I enjoy doing.

Of course the fact that in the nearly 200 reviews, not *one*, maker or manufacturer has ever contested the work done sort of makes a statement.

...when and by what means did you speak with Bob Dozier where he stated the Agent model was made for "tactical/ utility" use?

Email, his responce was on 25 of June, 2004.

...did not believe that he "dry-labbed" his tests.

I worked with four blades from Ray Kirk when I didn't know the steels or the heat treatment until AFTER the work was done. I did the review totally blind of how the results should come out. I did this with no hesitation because I have confidence in what I do.

Plus note that in all the vague comments about faking there are no actual statements of specific contestation, no one with a GAURANTEE of different performance, yes that is the way to have an informative conversation about knife performance.

Why would anyone break want to break a second knife in the same manner as the first one?

Quality control check both on the knife and method.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Ok Cliff. Whatever you say. I am sorry if you are uncomfortable in the spot light. You did the review. I just commented. I do apologize if it got out of hand and off topic for a while also. That was unintentional.

I've sat back and read many of your reviews and even though I could have made comments at times and almost did I elected to disregard what I saw and moved on. This time I simply couldn't bring myself to do that. I don't like confrontation any more than the next guy. Really.

There have been other times that I have made positive comments regarding your tests. We can agree to disagree on this one issue. But I stick with my comments and retract nothing that I said regarding the D2 steel. I have put points back on knives far more times with this steel for many hunters than any other steel I know of. I sharpen knives, lawn mower blades, and just about anything that can take an edge and actually make more money doing that than I do making knives. I know a little bit to contribute to this topic. Folks drop by my place often with whole sets of kitchen knives and what not for me to sharpen. I'm familiar with all kinds of cutlery steels.

And for the record. I didn't give the search engine popularity one iota of consideration here. I care! I only commented my honest feelings about the one thing I was simply amazed about in your review. Again I do apologize if this has caused you trouble or loss of sleep. It was not my intent.

I can probably bring that knife back to a point for you if you like. N/C for that if you want to have me do it.

I need to add here that I have nothing against you Cliff. Or Bob Dozier either for that matter. I simply feel D2 is a very brittle steel at the hardnesses mentioned and obviously not for everyone. If you got one with a strong point consider yourself lucky. It is a great cutlery steel there is no question. As Bob Dozier himself said "The main use of a knife is to cut, and to cut for a long time." That is why the steel of choice in his shop is D2. One just needs to be aware of the limits of what it can and cannot do or rather what you should and should not attempt to do with it.

I feel it is more intolerant of prying actions than any other steel I've come to use in cutlery. I don't think that is anything different than anyone else including Bob will tell you.

Steve

 

[Gossman Knives]

This is my last post on this issue. Cliff if this is what turns you on doing these tests then have at it. My point is don't use a knife in a situation that could cause it to break and then say the knife was not up to snuff. You seem to go out of you way to try and push a blade to the breaking point. Hey, maybe some of the manufacturers want this, but don't give a knife a bad rap because it broke doing something a knife isn't designed for. You say stabbing into concrete. This is what I'm talking about. What the hell are you doing that for!? Look, you go ahead and keep doing what you've been doing and the knowledgable knife enthusist can draw their own conclusion. I disagree with what you do to knives, but that's my opinion. It seems you have a following here at BF. I can't figure out why, but who gives a crap what I think. More power to you if people like what you do. Have a nice life.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...but don't give a knife a bad rap because it broke doing something a knife isn't designed for.

Lots of knives are designed to do what happened in this case, and others not designed for it can do it easily as noted in the review, let alone ones called tactical utility blades.

In this case the knife was also not given a bad rap because it broke, I simply noted it broke, that other knives would be a better choice to do that, and if you had to do that work there are other ways to go about it.

You say stabbing into concrete. This is what I'm talking about. What the hell are you doing that for!?

The maker asked for it. I guess you should not take all the personal attacks you made in the above to me and lay them all into him.

I am sorry if you are uncomfortable in the spot light.

That was not the point. My point was that you took an entire review, ignored all the cutting and utility work, the edge retention comparison and focused the entire thread on a tip break.

It was ironic that you were saying that it should not have been done, as it draws unwanted attention, or is unfair, but your repeated posts on this thread and others, draw attention to the point break to such an extent that everything else is ignored.

Now what comes to the forefront isn't the edge retention, or the cutting ability, or the ergonomics, etc., just that the tip broke and the extreme fragility of the steel which can break if the knife is dropped or the tip stabbed into wood.

And is isn't one knife I have used which gives me a different opinion on D2, it is guaranteed performance from other makers plus multiple knives. And again, I am not arguing D2 is extremely tough or anything, just that it doesn't have to be as brittle as you have described.

I can probably bring that knife back to a point for you if you like.

That was done right after it broke, it is still in extended rotation carry.

I feel it is more intolerant of prying actions than any other steel I've come to use in cutlery.

Try CPM-15 at full hardness.

By the way we were talking about utility/camp work carving, not artistic work such as :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/grandfather.jpg

Never damaged anything doing work like that, but then again I don't use knives like the Agent for that either.

Note as well, that in the above, ATR and Razorback knives both really critize doing the work done with the tip of the Agent as it was obvious it would break and thus it was pointless, as I noted lots of people would argue otherwise. Recently another knifemaker even claimed that the break I described would actually need a vice, ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3033406

-Cliff

-Cliff