Air Marshall offensive Knife

Well, I started a firestorm the last time I offered my editorial on an Air Marshal subject - :eek:

1) Word has it the current "Jefe" in charge of the air marshals is a former Secret Service guy who wants all AMs to dress and act like SS agents. To include wearing business suits on the flights. IF they are going to issue a pocket knife it will have to be one that is color coordinated and capable of being fairly well "hidden" while wearing a business suit. This means small and slim.

2) The Feds currently have automatic knives in the inventory for issue (NSN numbered and everything) and these are from Benchmade Knives. One would think they'd simply submit a memo for XX amount of high quality automatics (which are small and slim and use a pocket clip for carry) through the appropriate GOV office and get these for their folks ASAP.

3) Neato. An "offensive" knife as back-up. Okay, who is going to TRAIN the AMs how to effectively fight with a folding knife? Or did we forget the "training" part in favor of having yet another nifty bit of equipment to tote around? The AM program is STILL suffering major challenges with its ability to teach the candidates how to shoot with the degree of effectiveness and accuracy they need...now someone wants them to become knifefighters...:barf:

4) Sure wish someone somewhere would check and see how many AMs have come and gone since the program got under way...it ain't so much the candidates as it is the managers and paper pushers who haven't got their heads in the game.

5) Here's my recommendation - Buy Cutlery Shoppe Gryphon boot knives with Kydex sheath and issue to all AMs. A fixed blade coming out is faster than any one-handed opener or auto, period, and it is stronger (for obvious reasons) than any locking system will ever be in a folder. THEN hire some bonafide, qualified H2H knife instructors to teach the AMs how to use the knife in the close confines of an airliner or in a crowded terminal. Kelly Worden (who already trains Special Forces operators under GOV contract) comes to mind. Kelly McCann (sp?) is another "real deal" guy who could do this kind of training and make it count. Better yet, have either (for example) develop a "Train the Trainer" program that is approved/documented and therefore a viable document in court during the inevitable litigation that will arise when a weapon is used in a lethal force encounter. Then the AMs can teach their own folks using their own internal cadre as certified by guys like Worden or McCann.

The final and best weapon is the man or woman doing the job. We need to stop throwing $$ and "toys for boyz" at these issues and develop the people as they well deserve to be developed and supported.

GW
KU :grumpy:
 
Originally posted by Greg Walker
Well, I started a firestorm the last time I offered my editorial on an Air Marshal subject - :eek:

1) Word has it the current "Jefe" in charge of the air marshals is a former Secret Service guy who wants all AMs to dress and act like SS agents. To include wearing business suits on the flights. IF they are going to issue a pocket knife it will have to be one that is color coordinated and capable of being fairly well "hidden" while wearing a business suit. This means small and slim.


GW
KU :grumpy:
Click to expand...

It would be very easy to conceal a full sized combat blade under a suit. If the can conceal a semi-auto handgun, they shouldn't have a problem concealing a fixed blade....Leg sheath IWB sheath, shoulder harness, etc.
 
Greg, I go along with your excellent critique. (Please note, though, that the thread originally referred to Canadian Air Marshals.)
 
I'm certain this is too non-traditional a suggestion to be taken seriously, but...

Why not carry the Camillus CUDA Maxx Bowie?
  • short and light for its blade length
  • tremendous lock strength
  • double blade guards
  • fast presentation
  • outstanding reach
  • ample belly for slashing
  • fine point for stabbing
  • balanced for fast handling

The Maxx is not obvious clipped to a pocket and it disappears entirely IWB with the clip under a belt. It seems ideal to me.

--Bob Q
 
Thanks for the clarification -

However, whether Canada or US the air marshals need quality training to better protect all of us.

Kelly Worden teaches in Canada for law enforcement and civilians.

The C-AMs should hook up with him.

GW
KU
 
If you are going to go fixed blade think about a Bud Nealy. With his sheath options there are a lot of ways that you can conceal a knife.
 
IMO a something like a Hell's Belle in a shoulder harness and a smaller knife ITW (maybe a Livesay US Marshall:) ) would be good. The suit idea is stupid, though. It would make more sense if terrorists did not know where the air marshall is.
 
will answer a few q's.....imho anyway,

*emerson quality - i dont know why some think EKI has QC issues, i have 6 EKI's, and several buds have them also, so i know of about 10 knives in use, none w/any probs. one commander is in use by a construction worker who is HARD on knives, has destroyed a spydie or 2, he abuses the things, but his commander (a '99 model) has had no probs whatsoever, none. any brand is gonna have some lemons, but i dont think EKI has an "issue" w/QC, myself.

*MOD razorback for CAM (can air marshall) program - i would take a nealy pesh kebz, or one of the other nealys w/the MASS sheath for concealment, they work very well. the MOD razorback is OK, but imho overpriced and does not have a full tang, an imp feature, imho. but they are ok (i have 2 of them). the std sheaths they come w/are at best "OK", nothing like a normark/river city imho. striders/busse also would work well, just like the nealy system for concealment, and they are excellent knives also.

*ifi had to have a folder, would want either a MT SOCOM elite (M/A or D/A) or a EKI CQC8, or a crawford perfigo or kasper, or a BM 800 wouldnt be bad either imho. i wouldnt want a civilian/matriarch cuz ya cant stab, only slash. my EKI CQC8 or SOCOM elite would slash pretty well, and stab also, imho, the maxx also sounds good to me.

just my .02

greg
 
This one puzzles me.

I've worked with and owned E-Knives since meeting Ernie over a decade ago.

I've never had a lock break for fail.

If they fix 'em if/when they do then that's on par with everyone else out there who offers a reasonable warranty on their work.

But I've never encountered this problem or had anyone I know tell me they have either.

Therefore, I ain't buying it (the rumor).

Emerson Knives are among the best, period.

GW
KU
 
IMO which I know doesn't count for much as far as the subject goes, the MOD Razorback seems like a great choice for these reasons:

* Fixed blades as we know are stronger than folders and can be drawn more quickly

* The knife's short enough to be concealed, on the inside of the forearm for example, and seems to be pretty low profile

* The blade's long enough to reach vital organs with a stab

* It's got a stabby style of blade which if fighting offensively and alone in a situation where others lives are at stake you want to take the other guy(s) down as quickly as possible (slashing's probably a waist of time)

* As it's got an Aluminium handle it's probably quite light weight

* It's got a nice grip too


USAFSP's choice of the Spyderco Civilian seems better suited to it's intende purpose which is self-defense, the idea there being to get your attack to leave you alone without having to kill or severely injure them. It seems to me that in the given situation slashing is porbably not going to be so effective if you have more than one guy to deal with, especially considering that they may be willing to die for their cause, in which case a slashed arm won't necessarily make'em back down.

No offence ment USAFSP, just my point of view.
 
AM's Knives,

The AM's authorized carry knife is the Spydie Delica non-issued personal purchase carried at the AM's choice.
 
like i said, MOD razorbacks are ok, just overpriced and dont have a full tang - compare one to a nealy (not really much more expensive) and ya will see what i mean. and the sheaths, well, arent the greatest imho. lotsa better fixed blades than the MOD (ie cammilus CQB1 and 2, grecos, BM nimravus,gerber mark 1 and 11,livesay uji and bushi-do (and others)at 1/2 or 1/4 the price, the uji is $50,striders,etc). just not in love w/the MOD, myself, ok, but nothing special, imho. the issue about the full tang bothers me, though it prob isnt gonna fail w/normal use.


greg
 
There has been a couple mentions of the Hell's Belle. I really don't think that would be a BAD chioce. If FORCED to defend myself (or a plane-load of people) with a knife, I can't think of a BETTER knife to have in my hand at the time than my Ontario/Bagwell Hell's Belle...(Of course, I'd RATHER have my Glock 20 or 23, but since we ARE talking knives here...).
 
I would love to see a series of brief reenactments of what goes on in peoples' minds, thinking about this scenario: an air marshal confronts hijackers and firearms are no longer useful. Perhaps all the rounds have been fired and there are still too many hijackers, perhaps the action is in too close, too fast.

We aren't talking about a kung-fu movie, there's no time for elaborate posturing or reasoned selection and presentation of the best weapons. There is no room to maneuver. The likely most appropriate strike will be with fist or elbow! The time it takes to go for a knife will cost the marshal his life.

La Griffe taped to a forearm might work.
 
I have a Razorback and I agree that's a good choice. But I just remembered a knife I have that's even more effective. A Cold Steel PeaceKeeper II. It's a push dagger with a 5" blade, sharpened on both edges. It's slim and easily concealable. Put this thing in your fist and start wailing away and it's GAME OVER.
 
Good choice. A push dagger give you the options of stabbing, slashing, and punching, using almost intuitive skills. Compact and concealable, easy to draw, hard to disarm. An excellent infighting weapon for offense or defense.
 
Greg,
Agree with you on Grif being a good choice & agree about training,however I stand by my choice with the Gunting,carry the G & you have options of taking the BG down or escalating to the live blade & slicing & dicing!LEO'S I train say they never see it open until it's over,all they hear is a click,using it closed allows submission! Please understand ,I,instruct but am no where near Bram Frank when it comes to teaching,he is simply the BEST!He could train AM in a short time. The G is EXCELLENT in confined space.I realize I'm not being fair,you have never used the G nor exploried it's potential hope you get the chance to recieve training,with your
experience,you would be SCARY!!Thanks for your time & listening to a dif.theory!
Jim
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
I would love to see a series of brief reenactments of what goes on in peoples' minds, thinking about this scenario: an air marshal confronts hijackers and firearms are no longer useful. Perhaps all the rounds have been fired and there are still too many hijackers, perhaps the action is in too close, too fast.

We aren't talking about a kung-fu movie, there's no time for elaborate posturing or reasoned selection and presentation of the best weapons. There is no room to maneuver. The likely most appropriate strike will be with fist or elbow! The time it takes to go for a knife will cost the marshal his life.

La Griffe taped to a forearm might work.
Click to expand...


I would assume that the AM would choose such a moment that he could corner one of the guys and take him by suprise. Remember he's after them, not the other way round so if he's prepared he'd have his knife ready to go before the guy new he was coming or if the AM is really good the guy would never know.



Originally posted by Matteo Escobar
I have a Razorback and I agree that's a good choice. But I just remembered a knife I have that's even more effective. A Cold Steel PeaceKeeper II. It's a push dagger with a 5" blade, sharpened on both edges. It's slim and easily concealable. Put this thing in your fist and start wailing away and it's GAME OVER.
Click to expand...


I've never used a push-dagger myself but I'd guess that holding a 5" blade straight whilst punching into someone would be pretty hard to do. I tell you, if I was in a one-to-one toe-to-toe with someone knowing what I know (and not knowing what I don't) I'd rather he had a push-dagger than a real knife. A knife can be moved in many different directions very quickly and can reach places a push-dagger couldn't easily reach, it can also be switched from hand to hand more quickly than I can envision a push-dagger changing hands. Would you care to explain how you would attack someone with one of these weapons?

I can understand that if you took the guy completely by suprise you'd be okay, slip it in a kidney and then crush his thorax but what if he saw you coming?! I don't think it's a good idea at all.
 
Al Mar's quality far surpasses Emerson's or MOD's the SERE is well built and strong most of the Emerson's I have seen seem to lack something they are just not quite the knife they should be, the designs are great but the product is lacking. MOD's I have seen are a hit or miss we can get 5 in 3 will be loose and dull 2 will be nice, next time 4 will be nice 1 needs to be sent back the next... you get the picture, MOD's I classify in the Fantasy knife group they seem to made to look really wicked but turn out to be cumbersome and bulky for real use they are like Hibben knives but with better steels ect. Out of these choices I would choose the Al Mar easy.

The Spyderco Civi would be a good knife for a backup weapon for the Air Marshalls the drawback is what it can be used for it's not made or designed to cut with or stab or as a EDC knife it's only design is for a last ditch weapon and at that it's great, I would be more inclined to go for a knife that would serve more purposes if it's the only knife I am going to carry. IMO the SERE will serve well.
 
Originally posted by Matt Langley
I would assume that the AM would choose such a moment that he could corner one of the guys and take him by suprise.

* * *

I've never used a push-dagger myself but I'd guess that holding a 5" blade straight whilst punching into someone would be pretty hard to do.
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I would assume the marshal isn't going into action until the hikacker reveals himself by, what, killing someone? Grabbing a hostage? No, the marshal will not have the advantage of surprise.

Especially since we, as an open society, make so much noise about having marshals on board for the hijacker to factor into his plans anyway. :eek:

Holding a 5" blade straight while punching someone is so easy you don't even need training to do it. You just need to know how to box. OK, that takes training. In fact, if you generally think of a knife like a push dagger or kerambit as augmenting your jab, you can literally and figuratively cut someone up before he knows what to do to counter you.
 
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