Air Marshall offensive Knife

Esav Benyamin,

Excuse my ignorance, but could you (or anyone else) explain what you mean by holding a knife stiaght? That isn't holding the knife like a push dagger is it?
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
The time it takes to go for a knife will cost the marshal his life.
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A smaller blade in an ITW sheath strong side carry is quick to deploy. I have a Newt Livesay Bushi in this configuration and can draw it rapidly. Drawing it in a reverse grip cutting attack after a counter is almost as fast as punching after a counter. I do agree a large knife like the Hell's Belle would be slower to draw, but the idea for a larger knife is to draw it before attacking. If the marshall is dressed like a normal passenger, the terrorists won't know who to attack first, and the odds are that he will have enough time unless a large percentage of the passengers are hijackers.
 
Originally posted by barber oregon
what you mean by holding a knife straight
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Hold a knife in a hammer grip -- fingers wrapped around the handle, blade protruding thumbside. Now point that knife at a target. How much strain is on your wrist, how much do you have to turn your wrist in order to point the tip of the knife forward?

Now hold a push dagger point forward. Your forearm to wrist to tip of the blade is in a straight, unstressed line. Are you familiar with the Comtech Stinger? Same principle.

Incidentally, most people will tell you that a hawksbill is a uniqely slashing blade, unsuited for stabbing. This is true of a hawksbill like the Spyderco Civilian, because the tip isn't strong enough for heavy penetration on a stab. But a reasonably robust hawksbill will give you the same advantage as a push dagger: when held in a hammer grip, it cants the tip forward, stabbing directly into the target without forcing you to bend your wrist as much as you do with a straight blade.
 
Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
I would assume the marshal isn't going into action until the hikacker reveals himself by, what, killing someone? Grabbing a hostage?
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So does anyone know when/at what point a marshall is supposed to respond?

In addition:

- Is one assuming (or is it stated somewhere) that there is only one marshall aboard each plane and not more than one?

and

- What is the marshall's primary prerogative: to kill (i.e. "dispatch") on sight or to immobilize (i.e. "knock out")?

I think knowing the answer to the latter will give a better idea as to what kind of knife a marshall should carry (but didn't someone already mention they are given Delicas?).

However, to me, the major question is that if a marshall is able to carry a firearm, then pulling his/her knife would most likely mean s/he has somehow lost that firearm, or are marshall's trained to draw knives first? Do they allow marshalls to shoot in airplanes?

How about carrying a throwing or ballistic knife? Or how about a pen gun?

-j
 
For those of you unfamiliar, a push dagger is a devistating weapon. You grip the handle in your palm and the blade protrudes between your middle and ring finger. It's extremely intuitive and effective. It is going to be the next trendy design in tactical knives. I am very surprised that it is almost completely overlooked now considering it's effectivness. Out of all my knives if I was going to a life or death knife fight, I would bring my push dagger without hessitation.
 
Matteo, I believe the big problem with push daggers is that they have been banned in some jurisdictions. Obviously, that's ridiculous, but it does restrict access for many people.

Anything exotic panics the sheep :D

One nice extra you get with a push dagger is that it also allows you to grab something with the knife hand without losing the knife.
 
I think that as long as you don't do something for the COPS to give you a pat down carry whatever you want. If you actually had to use it for a legitimate reason, nothing else would matter. I have never broken the law, and I have never been patted down. Do you see my reasoning? How are they going to find the knife and prosecute you unless you have broken the law?
 
First off, let me say something about Emerson knives, I trust my life to an Emerson - Ok? I cant carry a gun, because of my age, or I would. I am not always comfortable carrying large fixed blades (despite preffering a fixed blade with a blade of 4"+). So, I carry an Emerson Commander every moment I am awake. It is a utility tool and it is the knife I would go for when attacked if I had a choice. The second knife I would go for, given the choice, would be my Emerson La Griffe (fixed necker). That tells me all I ever need to know about Emerson knives - I trust them that much.
No liner problems until I had worn the liner down from use and just playing with the knife. It happens - Emerson Knives replaced the liners, sharpened it up and sent it back to me good as new.
What Greg Walker said about Emerson QC speaks VOLUMES. Greg is one of the good guys in my book, and knows of what he speaks (otherwise he wouldnt speak it me thinks).
Go Emerson. Be Happy. :)

Air Marshall Knife? Well if all I could carry was a Delica, I'd modify it with a Wave and a Boye-Detent (if it didnt already have one), and I'd carry that little m-f'er where I could Wave draw it with my weak hand (saving my right for my gun), and have it into Edge In reverse grip in the blink of an eye. I already carry a Delica with these mods, exactly like this (except I save my right hand for my Emerson Commander, not a gun), to be deployed like this. Comes out fast, and its ready to rock... great for Edge In. If I could, I'd have another in my right pocket too... just incase.
If I could carry any knife I wanted, I'd make it one of my own design and make, 5" double edged spear point, with a full length false edge, and a single finger groove handle, similar to a full-tang/pinned scale version of a Mad Dog handle, ground from 3/16" thick, 1" wide, D-2 steel, with textured Micarta grips. Put it in a shoulder rig perhaps, perhaps a back rig. And I'd keep my Commander in my right pocket.
The fixed blade comes out faster than a folder, already ready to rock, cuts both ways (being double edged), and pierces like an ice pick, being thin, spear-point, double edged. Its a shank, stick 'em with it, slash if you have to, to make an opening, and then stick 'em with it.
As for training? Yeah, someone like Kelly Worden, Jim Keating, Mike Janich etc. etc. I doubt my approach to knife use would be PC enough were I an Air Marshall... they'd need something tailored to a law enforcement role, more than a regular "kill 'em before they kills you" type deal.
 
How about: MOD Razorback + Spydie = Spyderco Massad Ayoob? It will slash and stab and has real stopping power. :eek:
 
I've got two of the Spydie Ayoobs. One in the kitchen and one in my jacket pocket. It can stab, with that forward bend off the handle, without bending my wrist, and the pommel sticks out from the bottom of my hand far enough to serve as a striker, as well as protecting my fingers. Nice lockup.
 
Originally posted by Matt Langley
I've never used a push-dagger myself but I'd guess that holding a 5" blade straight whilst punching into someone would be pretty hard to do.
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Sorry if this caused confusion, I ment holding the push-dagger straight out the front of the fist. From what I've seen of them they have small leverage in the handle compared with the blade length so I assume they aren't rock solidly stable unless gripped extremely tightly.

Originally posted by Esav Benyamin
I would assume the marshal isn't going into action until the hikacker reveals himself by, what, killing someone? Grabbing a hostage? No, the marshal will not have the advantage of surprise.

Especially since we, as an open society, make so much noise about having marshals on board for the hijacker to factor into his plans anyway.
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Obviously we are thinking of different cirumstances. How do you invisions a hijacker beginning his attack? Strolling up to the AM an taking him out? The fact is that is a hijacker wanted to kill someone up there, he could. With respect to hostages, he's already got a hundred or more of them.

If the airport security have done their job, the hijacker won't have any huge weapon anyway, so a gun on his part is unlikely.

Originally posted by Matteo Escobar
For those of you unfamiliar, a push dagger is a devistating weapon. You grip the handle in your palm and the blade protrudes between your middle and ring finger. It's extremely intuitive and effective. It is going to be the next trendy design in tactical knives. I am very surprised that it is almost completely overlooked now considering it's effectivness. Out of all my knives if I was going to a life or death knife fight, I would bring my push dagger without hessitation.
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As I have said, I haven't used a push-dagger myself but I would have imagined that if someone were to grab the arm the push-dagger was being used with, whoever was using the PD couldn't really cut the other guy with it. It just seems to me that a push-dagger is almosts as limiting as a punch, only more damaging and can be used for some slashing. I'd rather have a fixed blade that I could snake in and ram behind the hijackers throat, give it a forward tug and the guys got no trachea.

I'm not saying PDs aren't effective for what they are because I have no idea, just that in that situation it doesn't seem like the best weapon. Maybe somewhere with more space would be preferable. Just MO, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but give me some reasons why.

Originally posted by JCHH
So does anyone know when/at what point a marshall is supposed to respond?

In addition:

- Is one assuming (or is it stated somewhere) that there is only one marshall aboard each plane and not more than one?

and

- What is the marshall's primary prerogative: to kill (i.e. "dispatch") on sight or to immobilize (i.e. "knock out")?

***

However, to me, the major question is that if a marshall is able to carry a firearm, then pulling his/her knife would most likely mean s/he has somehow lost that firearm, or are marshall's trained to draw knives first?
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These are very good points, we don't know when they are taught to act. I just assumed it would be at a point either when things had just started, or more likely when they had settled down and the hijackers got on with what they were doing.

I would assume that the knife was not a secondary weapon because once they had drawn their gun and made themselves known things would probably end fairly quickly, which ever way. I would have thought the knife would be used to thin the herd so as to be able to use the element of surprise on any remaining hijackers.
 
Let's remember that the thread began by talking about Canadian air marshals being issued knives. We don't know what doctrine, if any, the US is considering. We do have a recent incident where US marshals may have overreacted. Two marshals on one flight drew pistols and kept the passengers in their seats while they restrained a passenger they were suspicious of. We also know the program is developing, with some marshals dissatisfied with their instructions. So our speculation is interesting but necessarily uninformed as to the ultimate program. Knives can be effective weapons, but hardly weapons of choice. When all else fails, hand-to-hand is easier to handle with a knife in hand.

There are a few reasons for putting marshals on board aircraft. One is to allay public fears by doing something. Another is to limit hijackers interest in even trying to take over aircraft again. In these senses, if the program is doing its job, the marshals are going to be the most bored passengers in the sky.

If there is trouble, a shoe bomber or a few armed terrorists, a couple of marshals can save a lot of lives by disrupting them. But it's hard to stop a bomb in the baggage compartment or a grenade smuggled on board, so primarily they would be called on to augment what a strong pilot compartment door does: prevent the takeover of the controls.

Beyond that, it is a matter of the specific circumstances and the training of the marshals themselves, more than the equipment, that determines how effective they can be. But circumstances are forced on the marshals. They won't know what they are dealing with until the trouble has started, and they won't know how bad it can get till it's too late. Terrorists have been known to start with one set of attackers and send in another just as the response to the first begins.
 
ESAV,

Well spoken and I concur. I have read everyones choice of knife and I guess my choice would be the MOD Stealth. Good weight, strong point for stabbing and the window punch would do serious damage in a pommel blow or back hand.

Just to bad there is no kydex shealth like it's larger brother

Has anyone else played with the Gunting?
 
How you carry can be almost as important as what you carry. Check out On Scene Tactical for sheaths as good as they get (Of course. They're Canadian! :)) It's not much to pay to make the weapon available when you really, really need it.

I think the Gunting is an ideal close-quarters system. It's good that you can get a whole package, too, with a trainer and video, and live training available for those in need of a little pain in their lives :p

After all, what good is the best equipment if you just think you know what to do with it? Like the song says about the pistol: it can get you into trouble but it can't get you out. You have to do that yourself, by working through the real-world requirements of actual use and of the legalities to follow.

I would suggest you try the Gunting and see if it makes sense to you. (Is there a pass-around?) I think it's about the ugliest knife out there, eclipsing even the Vaquero Grande. Shows you how much I know :footinmou

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it!
 
Thanks for the link, now of course I am going through my knifes and flashlights to see which ones I want a sheath made for.

My two MOD's for sure, + I might order my Emerson sooner than later now.

Cheers:D
 
First point: Marshal, in the law enforcement title, is spelled with one "l", probably even in Canada irregardless of the fact that they wear chevrons upside down.
Second point: Law enforcement officers, at least in the first world, carry defensive weapons, not offensive weapons.
Third point: I hope that this is just some sort of philosophical exercise because it is starting to have the makings of a bad Steven Seagal movie. Any knife carried on an aircraft is going to battle far more bagels than terrorists. An airborne problem where the outcome hinges on a knife is in the end probably going to be resolved by a couple of F15s.
Fourth point: Are there any good Steven Seagal movies?

Bill
 
First point: I agree on "marshal".

Second point: SWAT or other emergency reaction forces are law enforcement officers deploying offensive weaponry. Officers on patrol carry defensive weapons.

Third point: Unless some one of us is going for an air marshal program, this is necessarily philosophical. In fact, it seems to have drifted occasionally to the usual question: "What knife do you want to carry for fighting people?"

It would be nice to think questions like this can remain largely theoretical, especially for the younger, less thoughtful among us. I find myself in an interesting position, discussing offensive weaponry, since I personally dislike hurting people in any way. But sometimes, circumstances dictate otherwise.

It never hurts to have thought it out ahead of time.

As long as the aircraft controls are secured from terrorists, the F-15s won't be needed. :) Actually, someone mentioned a small Spyderco folder as the issued knife. If so, it may not even have been meant as a weapon.

Fourth point: Ha!
 
1. Hmmmm, trivia or anal retentive ref: spelling error:rolleyes:

2. Hello? Global War on Terrorism! Law Enforcement these days carries WEAPONS. "Offensive" / "Defensive" is exercise is PC venacular (CRAP! Did I spell THAT right?). MP5s, AR-15s, Remington 700 Police Sniper Rifles, and so on are not grandpa's MOD 10 .38...nor are the tactics, techniques, and training concurrent with their application/employment.

3. Discussion / free speech / sharing of information / ideas / and so on. It's a FORUM;) Jeez...

4. IF knives (boxcutters?) are so innoccuous (CRAP! Did I spell THAT right?) and only good for slicing bagels on a flight from Baltimore to...the WTC (remember that one - I think it's called 9-11 these days) WHY, then, have they forbidden the least offensive sharpened item to be carried onboard by all BUT AMs? Seems the lads at al-Queda put a lot of stock in edged weapons...and know how to use them.

5. Steven Seagal is entertainment. There's no issue to be made here. However, learning / exploring / training / improving one's ability to defend one's self, family, and fellow Man is Real World and indeed - to many - a very important issue.

6. Gimmie a break. Better to take down / out a BG or BGs in the aisles with WHATEVER one knows how to use than having an F-15 SHOOT THE PLANE OUT OF THE AIR WITH ALL ONBOARD DYING. This due to no one having the means or will to fight back. Let's not forget Todd Beamer & Company of "Let's Roll" fame. Better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees...or leave it to someone else to do what needs to be done.

I'm with Brother Benyamin on this one

:grumpy:

GW
KU
 
Mr. Walker,

Thank you for your input. I view simple things like spelling errors as bearing on accuracy and diligence. Proofreading and using a dictionary is no more trivial than inspecting equipment. Have you seen police reports, intel reports, maps, and the like containing errors? Can the implications be critical? Every round of ammunition I put into a duty magazine is individually inspected. Is that anal? - You bet. Trivial? - Not when my life depends on it. In my experience, when we let the little, "trivial" details slip, more will follow.

The global war on terrorism? Which one? Weapons used to protect innocent people are defensive, regardless of whether it is a JDAMS or my grandfather's Smith & Wesson. The delivery device is irrelevant as is whether the defensive action is proactive or retroactive. Incidentally, I predict that any war on terrorism will be won by street cops and Sp4s who pay attention to detail, keep their eyes and ears open, and are willing to act. These men and women will probably be carrying the Model 10 of today, but will confirm that the mind is the most important weapon.

Re your fourth point: no, you did not. Anything with an edge has been banned from airtravel as a politicallly expedient attempt to apply a bandaid to a misunderstood problem. It has and will no doubt cause far more inconvenience and cost than benefit. While we are discussing sabers for air marshals and our government is confiscating ice skates and nail clippers our enemies are researching new and creative ways of attacking us.

Steven Seagal is entertaining?

More than likely, the true mission of any air marshal for the foreseeable future will be to protect the ocasional emotionally disturbed person who looks cross-eyed at a flight attendent from being rent limb from limb by the rest of the passengers. You made my point for me in your last paragraph. A true warrior will use whatever they have, however possible. The type of weapon is irrelevant.

Thank you,

Bill

edited to correct spelling errors
 
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