Al Mar Sere 2000, Who likes it?

Garth · Dec 21, 2006

Thank you, Wade. These pics are showing it pretty obvious (sp?).

So maybe I am overweighted and/or blind, when I call this liner thin. But I´d like to see the body of someone who´s calling it thick. Must be looking like Ghandi

.

Hope, this was not too off topic.

FoldersForever · Dec 21, 2006

Garth is entitled to his opinion. In this case, I happen to find his opinion useless. But that is just my opinion.

mmarkh · Dec 21, 2006

I personally like my SERE 2000.Hey Garth,what country do you live in?

WadeF · Dec 21, 2006

Garth said:
So maybe I am overweighted and/or blind, when I call this liner thin. But I´d like to see the body of someone who´s calling it thick. Must be looking like Ghandi.

Compared to other link locks I've seen I would say the SERE2000's liner lock is thick where it locks against the blade, but thin at the locking liner's base where it meets the rest of the liner. So everyone is right.

It's both thick, and thin.

I took another picture with a tooth pick stuck into the locking liner's hole. Close up pictures can make things look more robust when you don't have something to reference the scale of the object. This shows that the area of the liner lock that has been hollowed and thinned is actually thinner than a tooth pick:

bladeprince · Dec 22, 2006

Garth said:
Thank you, Wade. These pics are showing it pretty obvious (sp?).
So maybe I am overweighted and/or blind, when I call this liner thin. But I´d like to see the body of someone who´s calling it thick. Must be looking like Ghandi .
Hope, this was not too off topic.

I know you are referring to me in so let's cut the crap between us and get back to the subject. Agreed?

The thinning of the liner lock at the point in the pictures is common on a quality liner lock and frame lock. It is required so that the steel can obtain the "spring" needed to keep pressure pushing in the proper direction to keep it locked open. It won’t work without this so-called “thin” section. You could whack this thing as hard as you can with 2 hands and it won't fail where the liner thins. It's still thick the most any liner lock even at its thinnist point.

STR should know about this and why it's designed this way.

Take a look at a Strider SMF. The frame lock is thick until it gets to the back of the lock. There it thins for the same reason it exists on the SERE. So it can be made to have the “spring” pressure these types of locks require.

Clip image to enlarge.

When a liner lock fails, it either bends or it slips off the rear of the blade. There is no way this liner would ever bend so it has to be because it slipped off the back of the blade. This is a defect. Either the meeting angles of the lock and rear of blade are not correct or there is not adequate spring tension created by the liner lock, or both.

The thicker the liner where it meets the rear of the blade, the less chance it can slip off because the meeting angles can be more precise. This feature and to add strength to the liner in the SERE is the reason for there thickness.

This knife was developed by Al Mar and Nick Rowe for a military survival school and refined over many years. There was feed back about this knife from hundreds of students. Just that knowledge alone should help one know that it just might be a good knife and that the designers knew what they were doing.

I don’t care if anyone likes this knife or not. I do and that’s all that matters.

Regards and peace,
Gary

Eric J · Dec 22, 2006

I love the Sere 2K! It is one of the go to knives in my collection of 30+. Never had a problem with it.

Artfully Martial · Dec 22, 2006

I've seen framelocks without the cutout part/thinned down area.

bladeprince · Dec 22, 2006

Artfully Martial said:
I've seen framelocks without the cutout part/thinned down area.

I'm no expert but there is some reason for that. I admit I don't know what. A few guesses: the lock is "spring steel", the lock is thinner....I'm just guessing.

However, logic says there is some reason for it because it takes time to do and therefore increases the cost of producing the knife. Maybe someone on the forum that's a knifemake can provide an explanation.

Regards

Garth · Dec 22, 2006

bladeprince said:
The thinning of the liner lock at the point in the pictures is common on a quality liner lock and frame lock. It is required so that the steel can obtain the "spring" needed to keep pressure pushing in the proper direction to keep it locked open. It wont work without this so-called thin section. You could whack this thing as hard as you can with 2 hands and it won't fail where the liner thins. It's still thick the most any liner lock even at its thinnist point.

That´s right, you can find this thinning on quite a lot of liner locks. But it is rarely this extreme. I mean, that´s two strings of metal, actually thinner than a toothpick. Not really inspiring my confidence

.

For comparison take a look at some other liners: Ontario Retribution models, Benchmade Stryker, even Al Mar´s Shrike just for example. All of them have that thinning, but without that big cut-out. So there is more material left in comparison to the Sere. Not that I like those very much either, even as they live in my display case.
Subjektive impressions, I know. But that bothers me in a knife proclaimed to be rock solid.

And my personal dislike for liner locks in general stem from the blood I´ve spilled using knifes with this type of locking system. The only folders failing on me were liner locks. For me and my needs they are too prone to failing.
A usleless opinion to some, but hey, opinions are always useless for some and usefull for some others. *shrugging*

Peace

dennis75 · Dec 22, 2006

Garth said:
And my personal dislike for liner locks in general stem from the blood I´ve spilled using knifes with this type of locking system. The only folders failing on me were liner locks. For me and my needs they are too prone to failing.
A usleless opinion to some, but hey, opinions are always useless for some and usefull for some others. *shrugging*

Peace

i KNEW that was why you don't linerlocks

. trust me, the knives that did that to you were either lemons or $20 POS's

i still don't get why some people think the sere;s liner is 'thin'. (wtf?), that liner is THICK people. have a look at a crkt m16, now THAT liner is thin.

denn

Garth · Dec 22, 2006

dennis75 said:
i KNEW that was why you don't linerlocks . trust me, the knives that did that to you were either lemons or $20 POS's

Most of them, yes. But one was a Buck 880 and one was a MT SOCOM. Lemons? I´m not sure. And what about what Nathan posted concerning SERE 2000 lock failures? Lemons, too? ALL of them?

dennis75 said:
i still don't get why some people think the sere;s liner is 'thin'. (wtf?)

Then have a look at Wade´s pics, please. Thinner than a toothpick.
And yes, I call 1,5mm thin.

Artfully Martial · Dec 22, 2006

We need to get over the antiquidated idea that lockbar thickness is directly porportional to linerlock reliability. It just isn't the case.

A good portion of this thread surprises me. I'd heard nothing but good things about the toughness of Sere2ks.

MPE · Dec 22, 2006

Lets just say it is a fine science to making any folding knife correctly,every aspect for that matter. Alot of the cost is labor,research in design etc. The thickness may play a role,but isn't everything to the sureness of the lockup.I would ask people if you have a Sebenza,which is a frame lock,look at the thinning of the frame also.

MPE

Artfully Martial · Dec 22, 2006

Here's another pic of the liner lock on the Sere2k. Looks good enough to me.

dennis75 · Dec 22, 2006

Garth said:
Most of them, yes. But one was a Buck 880 and one was a MT SOCOM. Lemons? I´m not sure. And what about what Nathan posted concerning SERE 2000 lock failures? Lemons, too? ALL of them?

Then have a look at Wade´s pics, please. Thinner than a toothpick.
And yes, I call 1,5mm thin.

the buck-strider 880's suck ass. especially the 1st and 2nd gen. i had 4 of them (2 tantos/ 2 spears) and they ALL had liner-issues

personally i think Nathan's story is a bit overdrawn to the extremes. you can't keep getting SERE-lemons, just not possible

beefangusbeef · Dec 22, 2006

Great blade and cutter. I have yet to have a linerlock fail, but then again most of the time I use knives for cutting not chopping . I've had two of them and in their price range I think they're a good option. I love that vg-10 and they carry very deep in the pocket which I like.

Garth · Dec 22, 2006

Artfully Martial said:
Here's another pic of the liner lock on the Sere2k. Looks good enough to me.

Well, it shows the thickest part of the liner.

WadeF said:

here is Wade´s pic again. Doesn´t look good to me. I have never seen such an extreme removal of material in a liner lock. Might be sufficient in fact, but it wouldn´t give me a secure feeling holding this knife.
I don´t trust liner locks any more.

Artfully Martial · Dec 22, 2006

After a certain point, I believe that the only relevant thickness is at the tang. The broader area of tang contact will create more resistance to sliding either direction. But I don't believe that the overall lockbar thickness will have a significant effect, after a certain point. Of course a thick lockbar will be stronger than a normal one, but provided they're equally reliable, I don't think you'd ever need the extra power of the thick one. Liner locks don't ever seem to fail do to liner flex. If the liner did bend, it would actually lock up further down the tang. I think the reason we've come to believe thick lockbars are better is due to the increased contact area on the tang, not really due to the thickness of the lockbar itself.

If you don't like thin parts of frame/linerlocks, you will probably have to give up 99% of production crosslocks.

The Sere2k's thin part looks like a normal thinning to me. Sebenza, avalanche, etc...all seem to have a thinned out area like that.

Garth · Dec 22, 2006

Artfully Martial said:
If you don't like thin parts of frame/linerlocks, you will probably have to give up 99% of production crosslocks.

I do not use liner locks. I own a couple of ´em, but since I got cut pretty badly several times, they stay in the showcase. I don´t credit them (sp.?)

Artfully Martial · Dec 22, 2006

Well, but I believe the same can be said for lockbacks. There are good ones and bad ones, even from quality manufacturers. Of all the liner locks I've used, Benchmade's has impressed me the most. My gravitator's is the best I've ever used.

What knives failed you out of curiosity?