ALERT: Kizer and Reaté clones. Yeah, that's a thing.

I saw that Chavez knife faked as well, along with zt 620 and 562 they are really cloning everything under the sun .I think they really put a hurting on shirogorov, they flooded the market with cheap clones and different varations,I wouldn't be surprised if one of these companies go out of business from these counterfeits....
 
AndreLinoge said:
Who cares? I dont support china at all, much less get butthurt that chinese counterfeitters victimize their own companies. I guess if you like chinesium stamped with your favorite steel type you deserve having to wade thru fakes to find them.
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They still make your type?
 
That's funny.

Hard to feel sorry for them though. The sad part is the "tribute", "inspired by" and other euphemisms for knock off/rip off/ copyright violation crowd feeding them and forums supporting it. May as well set up an exchange to sell stolen knives.
 
Well the original russian company producing these are supposedly sending them usa materials and make the parts in china, and assemble in russia. So it is basically made in china and tweaked in russia, therefore, imho the original is made in china and so is the clone.. hm... the clone is probably made by a friend of the guy who makes the original parts in china. I am looking hard at the titanium made ones. I see there are differences, but for 1/10th the price and maybe 1/2 the quality i am ok with that. Morally is it right? Hell no! But this is a unique situation here. If it were all made in russia from start to finish it would be one thing.
 
As for chinese knock offs blame your fellow american manufacturers who moved production overseas to save a few bucks. We gave the chinese the technology the know how and taught them everything with our manufacturing orders. I dont want to get into politics here but its kind of like blaming them when we are to blame. Like when white people are scared of black people. Guess who brought them hundreds of years ago to work plantations for free and abused them and up till now still have some inequal sentiments to this day. Same crap different butthole.
Every action has a reaction. The chinese knock off everything in every quality. Guaranteed if you had to take out everything made in china in your house you would be sitting in a half built house, and naked. Best thing to do if you dont want to support them, dont bjy made in china products. Their econony crashed recently, so dont feel so bad about them knocking stuff off. They just got what was coming and it will get worse for them soon watch and see.
 
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A thread some time back made me mention the Ganzo axis locks to my brother who collects any and every kind of knife.

So he orders a few Ganzo 727 RAT 1 copies with the axis lock from that express site, and a few from that site with prime shipping. Turns out the ones from the prime shipping site are real and the express site ones are rip offs. Big difference in the quality.

So today he gave me one of the real ones to test because he knows I use mine and he would like to know how they hold up. I'm all over this. The real one says its 440C and so far after cutting a bunch of cardboard it's holding up like any other good heat treated 440C has. I will find out over the next couple months if they are worth it.

Just thought I'd add that even the cheap Ganzo brand blades are being copied with even lower quality knock offs. Price on the fakes is a couple bucks cheaper, not worth it. The real ones are already low priced.

This might be why you see some people have such low opinions of the Enlan, Ganzo and such brands. Even them are being faked.
 
Duane Sanders said:
...So he orders a few Ganzo 727 RAT 1 copies with the axis lock from that express site, and a few from that site with prime shipping. Turns out the ones from the prime shipping site are real and the express site ones are rip offs. Big difference in the quality.

So today he gave me one of the real ones to test because he knows I use mine and he would like to know how they hold up. I'm all over this. The real one says its 440C and so far after cutting a bunch of cardboard it's holding up like any other good heat treated 440C has. I will find out over the next couple months if they are worth it...
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When you say "real" you meant a Ganzo product, not the real Rat1, correct ?
Because I have as a gift from someone a "real" Ganzo 727M ( which is the correct Ganzo enumeration ), marked with 440C on the blade and great F&F, and the seel is nothing even close to 440C...
You can "enjoy" all Ganzo AXIS models at their own site yj ganzo dot com and compare it to the "fake" Ganzos... What a fun... :D
Actually their site isn't really updated, what's missing is the new PM2 model - G 729, of course, another AXIS lock mutant.

036150141.jpg
 
bld522 said:
...I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's different. And it's been around a whole lot longer than ours has...Then maybe we'll see why things that don't make any sense to us make perfect sense to them . . . and vice versa.
This much is certain. They're too big to ignore and they're not going to go away. Better we try to understand them than deride them.
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Everything Zen ? I don't think so... :D
They're just trying to make few bucks on our backs, thats it, regardles what excuse you want to find for their actions. They play their cards the way they got them right now.
I appologize for bringing it up because this is actually a political issue, but couldn't resist, reading all this, I have a hard time naming it without being offencive.
 
POCEH KOCEB said:
When you say "real" you meant a Ganzo product, not the real Rat1, correct ?
Because I have as a gift from someone a "real" Ganzo 727M ( which is the correct Ganzo enumeration ), marked with 440C on the blade and great F&F, and the seel is nothing even close to 440C...
You can "enjoy" all Ganzo AXIS models at their own site yj ganzo dot com and compare it to the "fake" Ganzos... What a fun... :D
Actually their site isn't really updated, what's missing is the new PM2 model - G 729, of course, another AXIS lock mutant.

036150141.jpg
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Sweet lord almighty. If Benchmade and Spyderco had an iconic baby, that would be it.

I now want them to do that. 110V Axis PM2. Yes yes yes.
 
bld522 said:
That's a heck of a good question. Would the Chinese government step in to protect Chinese knife manufacturers from counterfeiters operating in their country? Better yet, does the concept of counterfeiting even apply in a Communist regime where intellectual property presumably belongs to the masses?

I've often thought that what Capitalists define as thievery Communists embrace as sharing. I don't know. You tell me.
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I reckon it's too small an industry for them to really care... looking at the many bigger things they are already trying to whip into shapes.
Entire town/city springs up to specialize in one kind of counterfeit... all forms and brands of sports shoes for eg. Those are much bigger but they are still thriving. Authority there probably doesn't even realize there knives counterfeiting is a problem.
 
bld522 said:
I know. But we're not dealing with a society and a moral fabric that's anything like ours. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's different. And it's been around a whole lot longer than ours has. If we want to understand it, I think the first thing we need to do is set our rules aside so we can learn what their rules are. Then maybe we'll see why things that don't make any sense to us make perfect sense to them . . . and vice versa.

This much is certain. They're too big to ignore and they're not going to go away. Better we try to understand them than deride them.
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Well Said, Sir. I've often stated my ambivalence as to "clones", but once people start stamping names and trademarks, even I take offense. To me there's a huge difference in an item which may simply be styled similarly, even if that "styling" is pretty much dead-on, and stamping names, and reproducing OEM packaging and the like. I liken it to car tires. There are only so many changes you can make to car tires and still have a functional car tire, but it's entirely different to start stamping Pirelli on them and selling them for $200 each. Same with knives. Yes, there's some room for innovation, but how many changes can you possibly make and still have a "knife"? You cannot add a four-foot wooden handle, or now you have a spear. It's illegal to add a firing mechanism, and anyway, would that even still be a knife? If they use plastic, and cheaper grades of steel, most deride it as "junk", and if they'd use a higher grade of steel, and better materials, how long before they'd get enough of a following to stay in business? Even then, i'm sure that, being naturally biased, we'd liken whatever design they'd come up with as ripping off somebody we like better. :D I think part of the "Chinese problem" is that they're just learning to be more capitalistic. Some of what we consider morally necessary, such as worker's rights, stopping counterefieting, etc, they'll have to learn on their own, and that will come with innovation. The Chinese people will eventually develop pride in their own craftsmanship, and want to produce something known as a quality product- but right now, they're too busy actually making disposable income for the first time in most of their lives to care- and let's be honest: Even if it was bladed in CPM S30V, was styled differently than anything seen before, with good, polished micarta slabs on the handle- would we buy it if it was tang stamped in Chinese, and cost $150?
 
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Who knows. Maybe just marketing shenanigans. They ain't that popular here.
 
If there's counterfeits you better hurry up and buy the real Chinese ones while you still can lol.
 
I had a chance to handle a Ganzo G727M, their copied version of an Ontario RAT Model 1 married to an unlicensed Benchmade Axis lock, and it was frightening. It appears as though Ganzo has made a better RAT! They've replaced the plastic scales with true G10...not the best quality G10 but certainly on par with the stuff on Chinese Spydercos and Kershaws. The blade steel was sharper out of box than any RAT I've handled. I can't vouch for edge retention because all we did was cut a little paper and shave a little hair. The overall fit and finish was probably a little better than the real thing. As typical with the Ganzo version of the Axis lock, it was stiff and didn't really feel like an Axis lock. I don't think Ganzo has quite figured out the composition of the Benchmade Omega spring, so that's a minor victory. What these counterfeiters have done by taking a $30 knife, making it a little better and selling it for $20 is really creepy.

My take away from handling the Ganzo was to consider all the times on these fora that we recommend, rightfully so, the Ontario RAT Model 1 as a great, high value folder. These Ganzo copies are easily found all over the river and auction site, so there's a decent possibility that the uninformed purchaser of a "RAT" will end up with a Ganzo. At what point in time can you no longer recommend a knife due to the high possibility that the purchaser will actually end up with a clone or a counterfeit? Spyderco faces this dilemma every day. We've reached the point with knife recommendations to not only suggest a make and model, but where to purchase it and how to tell a fake from the real thing. To further complicate this mess, is the "RAT" that a forum poster is sharing their experience with the higher quality Ganzo copy, the real deal from Ontario or the crap POS copy from the interweb express site?

At this point the only thing I can do as a knife consumer is to never buy a Ganzo, regardless of model heritage, and advise others to not do so. Every knife you buy empowers them to copy the next "great, iconic knife".

/ramble off
 
Jens Schuetz said:
Has it really been around longer than us?

The current culture of ripoff is actually quite new and was even the complete opposite a long time ago.

Whoever was suspected of steeling Chinese secrets like silk and ceramic got his head removed or worse.
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Let's not forget black powder.
 
Its a good thing they cant import pistols here,imagine them getting their hands on a 1911 or a glock and start cloning them. that would be scary.....
 
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