ALERT: Kizer and Reaté clones. Yeah, that's a thing.

goldie said:
Its a good thing they cant import pistols here,imagine them getting their hands on a 1911 or a glock and start cloning them. that would be scary.....
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Yeah, that might blow in your face, literally.
 
For $19.97 per "Glock" some might want to risk it. Cant tell ppl what they have to buy. Capitalism after all.

Might also be very useful if one gets disarmed all the time. Because you know the evil doers always take our knives and pistols and use them against us. Cant happen with a fake Glock and might even take out the evil doer, especially with Chinese Ammo.
 
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goldie said:
Its a good thing they cant import pistols here,imagine them getting their hands on a 1911 or a glock and start cloning them. that would be scary.....
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They've done it with GFIs and pharmaceuticals and yes, that is scary . . . VERY scary!

I hate counterfeiters and counterfeiting. But I do not hate Chinese manufacturers and I draw a pretty tight definition around what "counterfeiting" means. As long as they're not trying to pass off the products they make as originals, I'm pretty much OK with them. Yes, I know they're still stealing designs, but at least folks can easily make the distinction between the real deals and the knockoffs. From that point on, personal ethics prevail. And if you guys want to get involved in a discussion of personal ethics, leave me out of it.
 
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I know of the norinco 1911 but its a norinco, not labeled exactly like a colt or a Kimber,and its no wherenear the quality of premium 1911's like Wilson combat and similar.
 
Those Chinese Makarov's were pretty sweet, and well made. Good trigger, and accurate.
Bought a few when I had an FFL, and kept one for a few years. Should've kept it, as it was the best built thing I've had from China, and a great shooting gun.
 
goldie said:
I know of the norinco 1911 but its a norinco, not labeled exactly like a colt or a Kimber,and its no wherenear the quality of premium 1911's like Wilson combat and similar.
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Norinco is one of six other brands of 1911s Wilson combat will work on. It's been that way for decades and in the 90s they preferred the norinco 1911s over every other brand because of their high quality. Colts poor quality and the even worse Springfield Armory guns were second class guns back then. If we could still buy them it would be the same scenario.

Don't know why you think less of their 1911s, but it's the complete opposite.

Being the stubborn American I am I still bought Colt and Springfield Armory. I would still have a 1911 probably if I bought a Norinco.
 
Ken44 said:
Those Chinese Makarov's were pretty sweet, and well made. Good trigger, and accurate.
Bought a few when I had an FFL, and kept one for a few years. Should've kept it, as it was the best built thing I've had from China, and a great shooting gun.
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Make sure you get also few sears and hammers for those, Mak is known for going full auto when those parts reach few thousand rounds.
 
This has gotten pretty off-topic.

This entire third page so far? Not one mention of the topic at hand.

I was blown away to learn that Ganzo and SanRenMu are being cloned - it reminds me of when I came across a fake Spyderco Dog Tag knife. My first thought was "why are you making a clone of a budget knife? What's the market for that?"

I understand† people who don't want to spend $1200 on a Decepticon and will buy the clone for $100 instead, but buying a $40 version of a $60 knife? Really? Who's buying those? The entire point of the big-brand budget lines is that they're high quality and affordable, and have a warranty. That $40 Tenacious could easily last you a decade if you send it in for maintenance once or twice. A knockoff develops a problem? Looks like you're out however much you spent on it, unless you can fix it yourself...

While I hate what it represents, I do appreciate the irony of intellectual property violators having their intellectual property violated. It's like someone making an "Even Better Value" line to compete with Wal-Mart's "Great Value" line of nearly-identical-to-the-original products.

†(understand ≠ endorse or support)
 
Hackenslash said:
I had a chance to handle a Ganzo G727M, their copied version of an Ontario RAT Model 1 married to an unlicensed Benchmade Axis lock, and it was frightening. It appears as though Ganzo has made a better RAT! They've replaced the plastic scales with true G10...not the best quality G10 but certainly on par with the stuff on Chinese Spydercos and Kershaws. The blade steel was sharper out of box than any RAT I've handled. I can't vouch for edge retention because all we did was cut a little paper and shave a little hair. The overall fit and finish was probably a little better than the real thing. As typical with the Ganzo version of the Axis lock, it was stiff and didn't really feel like an Axis lock. I don't think Ganzo has quite figured out the composition of the Benchmade Omega spring, so that's a minor victory. What these counterfeiters have done by taking a $30 knife, making it a little better and selling it for $20 is really creepy.

My take away from handling the Ganzo was to consider all the times on these fora that we recommend, rightfully so, the Ontario RAT Model 1 as a great, high value folder. These Ganzo copies are easily found all over the river and auction site, so there's a decent possibility that the uninformed purchaser of a "RAT" will end up with a Ganzo. At what point in time can you no longer recommend a knife due to the high possibility that the purchaser will actually end up with a clone or a counterfeit? Spyderco faces this dilemma every day. We've reached the point with knife recommendations to not only suggest a make and model, but where to purchase it and how to tell a fake from the real thing. To further complicate this mess, is the "RAT" that a forum poster is sharing their experience with the higher quality Ganzo copy, the real deal from Ontario or the crap POS copy from the interweb express site?... Every knife you buy empowers them to copy the next "great, iconic knife".

/ramble off
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I wouldn't say they made a better Rat, but I agree with your observations: F&F is better than Rat1, scales are at least G10 and not nylon, and I really like to see a original Rat1 with AXIS lock even I like linkerlocks.
BTW, there is no Ganzo copy of Rat1, all Ganzario ( as the russians named this model ) are with AXIS look like lock and whoever look for Rat 1 will know this.
The problem with this particular model is that they sell the countefeits for same price as the real Rat1. You can recognize those as a copies only when you purchase them and figure it out that the scales are G-10, the standoffs are not slated and it's very hard to take the screws not only because the standoffs spins but because Chinese are smearing some thread-lock that is almost with super glue properties.
They also sell another counterfeit of Rat1 - model III, that is slightly bigger than the original.
In regard of Ganzo's AXIS lock, it's a same hit or miss as their steels - the only Ganzo that I purchased out of curiosity years ago, 712, Bedlam's copy, it's AXIS works like a charm and the HT of the blade is very good.
It did cost $13 few years back, my son who purchased the Ganzario for me said, he paid $17 with free shipping for it so they go for below $20.

I believe we are starting to see the end of most counterfeits in this country. I got in the mail today something from Knifecenter, in it is a great Gerber - US1, a nice little folder that have 440HC steel and cost you around $17-18...
I think this will become a trend and we will see more US companies, manufacturing budget knives in this price range.

Those copies are popular mainly in Russia, the ex-Eastern Block and Europe, those are their primary markets but what I see in those few European forums I'm participating is also a trend: they would buy originals if they were cheaper,
they are buying knock offs only because they are inexpensive, other than this, the average knife nut there is fully aware that most of the originals have better materials, waranties and F&F than the counterfeits.
 
POCEH KOCEB said:
I believe we are starting to see the end of most counterfeits in this country. I got in the mail today something from Knifecenter, in it is a great Gerber - US1, a nice little folder that have 440HC steel and cost you around $17-18...
I think this will become a trend and we will see more US companies, manufacturing budget knives in this price range.

Those copies are popular mainly in Russia, the ex-Eastern Block and Europe, those are their primary markets but what I see in those few European forums I'm participating is also a trend: they would buy originals if they were cheaper,
they are buying knock offs only because they are inexpensive, other than this, the average knife nut there is fully aware that most of the originals have better materials, waranties and F&F than the counterfeits.
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BladeHQ has some Combative Edge (USA made) flippers with PSF27 steel for something like $200. True madness. ZT has been putting out knives in the same price range previously dominated by clones, but with better materials, fit and finish, warranty service, etc... Kizer continues to offer original designs that are priced competitively with higher-end clones.

For what would previously get you a S35vn (or not) Hinderer clone of dubious quality and no warranty, you can get a 0808, or a 0562, or a 0452CF.

I love that clones are being made irrelevant, but I'm starting to see them bleed over into brick-and-mortar stores. I stopped by an army surplus store this afternoon and they had a PM2 clone and a Vallotton clone on the table for full retail price. I know the Vallotton clone on sight because I owned one, and I knew the PM2 was a fake because it had some sort of faux-CF handle but with a blade marked S30V.
 
Comeuppance said:
... I know the Vallotton clone on sight because I owned one...
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Yeah, no kidding... You had original-one too, some time ago... :D

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I go to some gun shows and some other small shops around and a side of the regular M-Tech crap I did not see any of the all E express junk. Didn't see any of the "original" designs either or any of the $160+ "expensive" counterfeits.
I agree however that you can find better original knives for less money today, I got my 620 from sleezbay for $170 but it's hard to find deals like this and you have to know who you buying from or to be able to recognize fake from original...
 
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