All carbon vs. stainless steel springs

[lutejones]

Hello friends,
I have some knives, mostly vintage Case and Boker, all carbon steel even the springs and some others mostly modern Case and SAK with stainless springs.
I've noticed that the springs in carbon steel are more elastic what results in a better walk and talk, not necessarily stronger pull and snap, it's a matter of feeling. While the stainless steel springs give a little less feedback, I don't know if I'm explaining myself clearly.
The backside of this is when you use hard the knife like when whittling for several hours the palm sweat can get the spring rusty, so it will stick a little bit.
So, what do you think?? Or prefer?? Take a little more care of the carbon steel springs or not worry about them even losing some feeling on the W&T??

 

[mrrampro]

I prefer the carbon steel back springs myself. This opinion is solely based on looks from an aged knife stand point. The carbon blade and stainless back spring look weird together in my eyes . Thanks for the post.

 

[greg c]

Definitely prefer carbon springs for the look and feel. I can't get into Case knives because of their SS springs (and mirror polished blades-yuk)

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Carbon springs always look good (patina), but obviously they're a little more prone to rusting. Long term, if they become too pitted, that could impact reliability, as the pits introduce weak spots into the steel. I could see the rust also creating undue stresses on the spring, if the rust causes the spring to bind between the liners. Wouldn't be hard to break a rust-bound spring, if attempting to force a blade open on a neglected knife. So long as they're reasonably maintained, they should hold up fine (and they do, save for the occasional broken one).

Whether stainless or not, if a spring is properly heat-treated (especially) and otherwise designed and installed properly, and maintained reasonably well, either type should perform equally well.

 

[Modoc ED]

Lightly oil the joints and lightly oil the springs.

 

[Humppa]

I personally prefer carbon steel in every way. If springs or blades doesn´t matter. As Ed already told - some oil would prevent of rust and giving them a long live. It doesn´t matter if stainless or carbon. With some mineral oil from time to time you can´t go wrong. I have a lot of very old tools and when I got them, the pivots were hardly to get loose. Some oil worked wonders. The same is with knives.

But you are right, the carbon steel blades and the SS backsprings on some Case knives look strange.

Nice thread!

Kind regards
Andi

 

[dannyp]

Whether stainless or not, if a spring is properly heat-treated (especially) and otherwise designed and installed properly, and maintained reasonably well, either type should perform equally well.

Well said, David. Those are my exact thoughts also.

It doesn't matter to me whether the springs are carbon or stainless, but I do prefer that they match. It does look a little strange to have a blade with patina and the spring be stainless. It's not a deal breaker for me, though.

 

[Peter Parker]

I too prefer carbon springs they have that just right feel and look and when taken care of they stay consistant. Like you guys mentioned newer Cases use SS but my 2000 made CV Canoe's springs are getting a good patina going!

 

[akula83]

What oil do you recommend?...mineral oil, right?

Lightly oil the joints and lightly oil the springs.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

What oil do you recommend?...mineral oil, right?

That'll do. Just make sure the knife is clean & dry before oiling, so dirt or other rust-makers won't be trapped on the steel by the oil layer.

 

[Will Power]

CASE has the stainless springs/cv blades whereas Böker offers carbon springs and stainless blade, at least on a Pen knife I own.

I'd like to know if Queen Cutlery's knives in D2 also have D2 springs or plain stainless? D2 is harder so there could be wear implications .

I haven't noticed any 'performance' variation between carbon and stainless backsprings though.

I'm beginning to prefer nickel silver liners to brass ones on my knives, they also look better with carbon springs. Brass seems to react badly with my skin, it gives off a strong odour and smell and I'm wondering if that is the smell that people sometimes complain about when prep food with a carbon blade? Brass can also 'bleed' and affect the bone or stag scales with verdigris.

Thanks, Will

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

CASE has the stainless springs/cv blades whereas Böker offers carbon springs and stainless blade, at least on a Pen knife I own.

I'd like to know if Queen Cutlery's knives in D2 also have D2 springs or plain stainless? D2 is harder so there could be wear implications .

I haven't noticed any 'performance' variation between carbon and stainless backsprings though.

I'm beginning to prefer nickel silver liners to brass ones on my knives, they also look better with carbon springs. Brass seems to react badly with my skin, it gives off a strong odour and smell and I'm wondering if that is the smell that people sometimes complain about when prep food with a carbon blade? Brass can also 'bleed' and affect the bone or stag scales with verdigris.

Thanks, Will

I'm inclined to believe the springs on my Queen Cattle King are also D2. I've occasionally noticed a slight darkening in them, which seems to duplicate the rate & color of the (slight) patina on the blades. Also seems to be minimal wear between blade & spring, which suggests the two might be pretty closely matched up, in terms of hardness/abrasion resistance. That's significantly different from many all-carbon knives I've seen, which often show some severe wear on either the blade tang or the spring, and sometimes both. One downside of 'pure' carbon steel is, there are minimal or no carbides in it, due to the lack (or minimum) of chromium and/or vanadium in most varieties. 1095 is the perfect example, which contains no chromium or vanadium at all. The extreme hardness of the carbides (vanadium carbides, chromium carbides) are what give high-alloy steels extra abrasion-resistance, and many of them are stainless varieties. I hadn't really considered why carbon steel knives often seem to show so much more wear between blade & backspring than many stainless knives, but the lack of abrasion-resistant carbides in it would seem to make some sense in explaining it.

I've also noticed the 'funky' metallic smell of brass used on knives, especially on my hands after I've handled them. I'm sure it's due to a similar reaction as what happens between carbon steel and anything acidic. Brass does seem to oxidize (tarnish) much faster than nickel. I'm sure that's an indicator of how much more reactive it is to acids, due to the copper content in the brass. It's the copper-acid reaction that produces the green tarnish (verdigris) in brass.

 

[jakemex]

Matching spring and blade material is a must or it looks out of place. Patina without excessive corrosion is a complement to the looks of a knife.

 

[whetrock]

They take an awesome looking patina, but in my experience it can be a bit hard to keep the rust at bay. IMO it's a nice nostalgic touch but for more practical purposes kind of a pain.

 

[johnny twoshoes]

Carbon with carbon and stainless with stainless for me.

 

[Will Power]

Thanks for your input David, interesting food for thought. I'm reassured to hear that Queen likely uses D2 springs, otherwise the wear could be dramatic.

Regards, Will

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks for your input David, interesting food for thought. I'm reassured to hear that Queen likely uses D2 springs, otherwise the wear could be dramatic.

Regards, Will

I don't know if we'll ever know for sure, but that's my hunch anyway. I'm sitting here comparing a couple of Queens (Cattle King stockman and a Country Cousin) to my Schrade 8OT (all carbon steel, including springs), and looking at the apparent wear in the pivots of each. Not seeing much at all in the Queens. I hadn't ever considered whether Queen's springs were D2 or not, until you'd brought up the question. But it does make sense that they should be, especially since I'm not seeing much wear in the pivots of mine, in the form of the black stuff (steel 'dust') often seen accumulating in the pivots of all-carbon steel knives.

 

[lutejones]

Hey guys thank you very much for all the responses, very interesting inputs.
Maybe I'm a bit noob on this question but I think that the actual hardness of the steel has more to do with wear at the pivot point than the size of the carbides, hasn't it?
But my main point is that the internal structure of carbon steel springs is what aloud better flexion and elasticity. That's why trucks and all terrain vehicles still use it in the dampers.
P.S. David is always great to read your posts, thank you.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks for your input David, interesting food for thought. I'm reassured to hear that Queen likely uses D2 springs, otherwise the wear could be dramatic.

Regards, Will

This point about Queen's springs got my curiosity worked up yesterday, so I sent an email to Queen to ask about it (actually, to Ontario Knife Co.; this is where Queen's contact info directs emails). Turns out, the springs aren't D2 (so much for my speculation ). They didn't specify what the springs were made of, though. I think I'll send a follow-up to ask if the springs are/aren't stainless, at least. Don't know if they'll get any more specific than that.

The quote is from Jennie Moore, the Production Manager at Ontario Knife Co.:

"David,

No only the blades are D-2



Jennie Moore

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

My follow-up question to Queen, about their backsprings on D2 knives, was answered quickly. Here's the answer:

"David,

All springs are 420 H.C

Jennie"

So, there it is. Stainless springs and almost stainless blades on D2 Queens.