all round gun for self-defence and survival

Howdy, Will.

If you were an experienced gun guy, I'd say get an SKS or a .30-30 and shoot everything with it. FMJ's out of an SKS will be fine on birds and small game; killing them, without disintegrating them. Soft points work well on bigger stuff.

But as you are new to hunting and shooting, I'd say get an H&R Topper in 12 or 20 gauge. Since you might need slugs, get the 20 gauge. Since you seem to expect to carry them a lot and shoot them a little, these single shots will be fine for you. I shoot the ordinary 1oz bargain basement promotional load of 6's from my H&R 12 gauge, and they pattern very well, and bring everything (small) to bag.

Whatever you get, make sure it is mechanically sound and accurate, and then practice with it.
 
One other pump shotgun you might want to look at is the Ithaca Model 37. You can get it in a 20 inch barrel if you want. They are impossible to mount extended mags on due to the barrel lockup but they are AWESOME in freezing conditions and heavy ice due to the fact that the ejection port is on the bottom. If you handle the gun right very little water gets inside to freeze up the action. I use mine for nasty weather goose hunting. I have seen, on the same ambush from the goose blind, a Rem 870, Browning SxS, and a Rem 1100 choke due to ice in the actions. All three guns choked simultaneously while the 37 fired all its shots. They are a great cold weather gun. Mac
 
A shotgun would probably the way to go, it is a very versatile weapon with good stopping power. My choice would be the Saiga 12K (Link) (Another), the short version. With an optional folding butt it can be very transportable, and the gun is reliable. The price is very affordable, especially for an autoloader. But I'm most familiar with the AK layout, which is a factor.

Another kind of gun I would choose is a self loading rifle in 7,62x39, mostly because it's on of the most common caliber here - and being the choice of the FDF. The cartridge is a solid all-around performer by all means though.

A Russian factory produced an interesting shotgun: a short barreled bolt lock with a removable magazine and a folding stock. This would have been a choice to consider, but the company's website is offline and I don't know what the status of production is, or availability for that matter. I haven't seen it in any retail stores. I remember it been marketed for home defense in the Russian market. It was either 12 or 20 gauge, probably 12.
 
Another vote for the 12 gauge pump shotgun, specifically the Remmington 870 due to the wide availability and interchangability of barrells and grips.

The shotgun you'd want to hunt geese is not the ideal set up for home defense, or as a moose/bear gun, but the 870 is pretty much a modular system these days. You coud transform the weapon from one idealized use to another for a few hundred dollars in a few minutes.

The other popular pumps-mossy's and ithica's- are also good, but Remmington parts are easier to find.

Living in Canda immediately rules out a lot of popular choices for you, such as the semiauto long rifles.

I know a few bear/moose guides up North and they think highly of a short barrelled 12 gauge pump for those animals. I think highly of such a weapon in a defense situation.

Take Care,
Jeff
 
gallowglass said:
Another vote for the 12 gauge pump shotgun, specifically the Remmington 870 due to the wide availability and interchangability of barrells and grips.

The shotgun you'd want to hunt geese is not the ideal set up for home defense, or as a moose/bear gun, but the 870 is pretty much a modular system these days. You coud transform the weapon from one idealized use to another for a few hundred dollars in a few minutes.

The other popular pumps-mossy's and ithica's- are also good, but Remmington parts are easier to find.

Living in Canda immediately rules out a lot of popular choices for you, such as the semiauto long rifles.

I know a few bear/moose guides up North and they think highly of a short barrelled 12 gauge pump for those animals. I think highly of such a weapon in a defense situation.

Take Care,
Jeff
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I like the Rem 870 that most of you suggest, with the 18" barrel. The choke is fixed, so I guess I can't change it, but if the barrel is interchangeable then the weapon can be customized when needed. I guess the next step is to buy it and start practicing at the range.

Most semiauto rifles are legal here I think, but some are restricted.

Will
 
Will,

You won't go wrong with an 870. Be warned though, to the buying of guns there is no end. Your question is kind of like asking "Which golf club is best if you had to play 18 holes with only one?" Every hunting/defensive situation is different and we would all like to bring a caddy along, or at least a train of heavily loaded, low paid locals who can also track and set up camp, but hey, this is the 21st century...

For versatility like you described the 12 ga pump is the way to go. Mac
 
I'm starting my own quest for the perfect "woods", "walk-around", "survival" rifle myself. I have several rifles at the moment but thought it would make a good project (and an excuse for a new rifle). After considering all uses, I've chosen just a simple Marlin 30-30 as a starting point. It has all the power needed for anything in NC including Black Bears. You can also count on any place that sells ammo will have 30-30 handy.
 
Many guns would be suitable for the smaller end of the work (birds etc.), but since you are in bear habitat, I'd go with the 12 ga as well. 12 ga slugs were the load that our bear guards used when I was doing some field work in Alaska this summer. The Ithica 37 that Pict suggested has a goods reputation. It's also perfect if you happen to be a lefty. Another lefty friendly gun would be the Browning BPS. The Ithica is substantially less expensive, but will be harder to find parts for than a Mossberg, Winchester or Remington.

Pat
 
My choice for a 12 gauge would be the Remington 870 Wingmaster. I've had one for 22 years and it never let me down. It will handle 3" magnum shells. The action is as smooth as butter. IMO, I'd stay away from a semi-auto. Too much of a chance of malfunction. A pump is the way to go. If I chose a rifle I'd go with Marlins Guide gun either 444 Marlin or 45-70. Both calibers are sledgehammers with the 45-70 having more of a selection of bullet weights.
Scott
 
The pioneers (not the mountain men), in this country carried mostly shotguns and squirrel guns. They were practical people and knew what works for minimalist living. If they had a lot of money they also had a large caliber rifle.
Just my $.02.
Enjoy!
 
Though not much for self defense, I have thought lately that a really good survival gun would be an over / under rifle - shotgun combo. I used to own one and kick myself eveytime I think about selling it. I forget the maker though I understand that Remington or an offshoot of theirs makes them now. Mine was a .22LR on top and a 20ga. shotgun on the bottom. I really got to thinking about this after watching the movie Snow Walker and imagineing what I would want if put in that guys situation. What he saw was a game bird, forget the name but it understand from people who have been up there they are hunted with a .22LR. A kind of ground squirrel that the native girl trapped. That could also be taken with a .22LR. And the Reindeer. Those could be killed with a slug in the 20ga. Ideally, I would want a synthetic stock for strength and light weight, and a break down model for packability. Carry about 250 rounds of .22LR , 20 slugs and say 20 to 30 rounds of #4 shot and you could bag a lot of survial game for little weight. Now in my neck of the woods we have Deer (20ga slug), rabbit and squirrel (.22LR), Wild hog (20ga buck or slug) and various game birds (20ga bird shot). Think I'll start saving for one now.
What do you think?
Oldsalt.
 
Hi oldsalt. For a meatgetter with some selfdefense potential its a real god choice. Only one thing i would change. I think the particular gun you mentioned was or is made by Savage. They also used the .22 mag instead of the .22l.r. and this would be it. Having already a shotgunbarrel to cover a distance of around lets say 35 to 40 yards while smallgame hunting, the .22 l.r. would add only around 30 yards reach. The .22 mag almost triples it. Ammo does not weigh much more.
These over and under combinations are really very popular were I live and they make them in a wide variety of calibers.
Also popular are combinations of a regular rifle barrel i.e.30/06, or.308 combined with a smaller rifle caliber.22l.r. upto .223
 
For some reason I remember hearing it's VERY hard to own firearms in Germany. Not impossible, just hard. I'm going to TRY and get stationed there in a few years if possible.
 
I firmly believe that fish and small game are the key to long term survival. Don't get me wrong, large game are ok to gut and climb into when its cold. And if you have enough cordage to hang your meet out of the paws of critters. For the most part, big game is overkill.

I would carry a .454 casual for the bears and such ( can be loaded with .45 colt for bad people), and a big bore blow gun/ walking stick from Cold Steel. Load that puppy with mini broad heads for practice and game. Remember some fishing gear too.
 
Wilkenstein, in short: if you have a proven need to own a gun in Germany (sportshooting/hunting), you are a citizen and you have no record of beeing a criminal, drugabuser or beeing mentally ill, you can get a license for handguns ,rifles or shotguns.I do own rifles pistols and shotguns legally here.The whole law is very complicated and gun possesion ist strictly controlled(ofcourse just the legal owners). Its almost impossible to get a ccw license. You can keep you guns in the house in a safe or transport them to the shooting club or to the place you hunt. If you have any questions regarding the German gun laws I would be glad to answer as good as I possible.
 
WILL - "... like the Rem 870 that most of you suggest, with the 18" barrel. The choke is fixed, so I guess I can't change it,..."_________________________________________________________________

Yes, Will, you can change it. Just have a good gunsmith put a Poly Choke on it, and you can select the choke to fit the shells you're using, from Slug setting to birdshot or buckshot.

I've had two of them, one on a Rem. 870 12 ga., and another on a Rem. semi-auto 1100 12 ga. for many years, and they work just fine.

Good luck. L.W.
 
Leanwolf said:
WILL - "... like the Rem 870 that most of you suggest, with the 18" barrel. The choke is fixed, so I guess I can't change it,..."_________________________________________________________________

Yes, Will, you can change it. Just have a good gunsmith put a Poly Choke on it, and you can select the choke to fit the shells you're using, from Slug setting to birdshot or buckshot.

I've had two of them, one on a Rem. 870 12 ga., and another on a Rem. semi-auto 1100 12 ga. for many years, and they work just fine.

Good luck. L.W.
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I would pass on the poly choke and have the barrel threaded for choke tubes. Choke tubes can be as tight as turkey and open as far as improved cylinder and don't forget rifled..
 
Doesn't the sheer weight of the shotgun ammo put you off? Greanted, I have limited experience with firearms (only UK Army stuff) but I would have thought that a smaller calibre, but in a magnum case would be a nice middle ground gun. Perhaps something similar to the M1 Carbine, which IIRC is likened to a hot pistol round.
 
I agree with razorback, I drop many deer like sacks of shit during shotgun season. I would put a slug in the bore and two in the chamber with shot. Shotguns have kicked ass in Africa on lion hunts and will forever continue to kick ass. So get a shotgun and KICK SOME ASS!.
 
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