All the lessons learned--except that little matter of personal responsibility

" Congress should" , "Goverments should " etc , etc.I've never been in that part of the country yet I'm aware that in December in those mountains there can be unexpected and severe storms . To wander the area with 2 small children without taking serious precautions is just plain stupid !! But the father puts all the blame on others !...Sad to say that's typical of so many of today's Americans, they want somebody else to be responsible for their stupidity !!!
 
While I don't advocate leaving town without enough gear to get you through a bad situation, I saw some of what Spencer Kim is asking for as being reasonable and entirely in the domain of government. Specifically, the bit about Kim's family not being able to access credit card information due to privacy laws, and the bit about media planes interfering with the SAR flights were well taken. Both delayed the rescue attempt.

That said, the rest of the article looks like hogwash to me.
 
Spencr Kim said:
"My son's death was a tragedy that could have been prevented. A wrong turn on a poorly marked wilderness road need not have resulted in the ordeal of James's wife and two daughters, nor his death while trying desperately to find help."

"First, it is crucial that measures be adopted to ensure against mistaken access to potentially hazardous logging and private roads."

"Such measures might not have stopped James and his family from being misled by a map that depicted the road they chose through the Coast Range as a major thoroughfare, but they would have prevented the ill-fated turn that led them into a maze of logging roads and across treacherous terrain that travelers never should have had access to in the first place."

Holy cow. There are so many things I feel are wrong in that article. I only got through the first 4 paragraphs before closing it. Spending a mere $20 on the DeLorme Atlas and Gazetteer could have saved their lives. i know the Colorado Atlas and Gazetteer helped me identify and negotiate rural roads and jeep trails. I imagine the Oregon atlas would have been helpful to the Kim family.

I think there were just a string of bad decisions made by Mr. Kim. Chosing to take a route less traveled, paying no mind to weather conditions/time of year, disregarding road conditions, not thinking ahead about possible consequences, and not turning back once they realized they had to 'remove large rocks' from the 'major highway' just so they could progress. I feel bad that Mr. Kim lost his life, but the situation could have been easily prevented. And I'm sorry that Mr. Kim Sr. feels the need to blame everyone else for his son's death. I guess that is part of the grieving process for some...

Again, my sympathy goes out to the Kim family. But I can't help thinking of the this phrase:

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.
 
While I don't advocate leaving town without enough gear to get you through a bad situation, I saw some of what Spencer Kim is asking for as being reasonable and entirely in the domain of government. Specifically, the bit about Kim's family not being able to access credit card information due to privacy laws, and the bit about media planes interfering with the SAR flights were well taken. Both delayed the rescue attempt.

That said, the rest of the article looks like hogwash to me.

Access to personal info (credit card, phone, etc) should not be given to family that is not part of the plan. The agencies performing the search have access when the search is started (was quick for a family that left no plans with relatives). From what I have been reading, he hampered the SAR flights with private choppers more than the media. If true, he should shut up on this point, does he want the airspace closed for private flight, except his, or was his pushing to allow his private pilots what opened the floodgate for the media pilots?

It is too bad Kim died, but for his father to try and infringe on privacy and close public lands to the rest of us is not a good plan. I would like to see all gates on all roads on public land removed (unless there is a valid reason like winter range for wildlife). Once they put a road in, they should not restrict it's use to a few individuals (logging companies, etc). There is a road or not.

As for signs, the Kim family passed at least 3 warning signs, why should we think more would have helped?

--Carl
 
Yes, Spencer is a grieving father looking for someone to blame. I see two simple things James should have done: 1. Turn around and go back at the first sign he was on a wrong road. 2. Stay with the car. What was he thinking, trekking off into the wilderness, not knowing where he was going, leaving his wife and kids behind?

There are all kinds of coulda/woulda/ shoulda's. Too late now.
 
Can't tell the difference between a logging road and a major thoroughfare? It is the governments fault, it is always the governments fault. Let the lawsuits begin. Good thing this forum doesn't allow cussing!
 
A agree, a major sympathy killer. What an idiot... "the government should this and should that."

Instead, his father should have reminded everybody to invest in proper tires or to carry snow-chains, a GPS, some spare batteries, and maybe some spare fuel and a hatchet might have helped aswell. But honestly, there is hardly any excuse to get completely lost, with a car on drivable roads no less, in a time were accurate GPS systems are readily available.

This tragedy would have been easily preventable with the investment of no more than $500 on Mr. Kim's part.
 
But honestly, there is hardly any excuse to get completely lost, with a car on drivable roads no less, in a time were accurate GPS systems are readily available.

This tragedy would have been easily preventable with the investment of no more than $500 on Mr. Kim's part.

This is something that truly makes me curious. James Kim was the technology editor for CNET. That makes him a gear-head. He was also, if memory serves, driving a late-model sedan (a SAAB?). How did he NOT have a GPS unit? I just can't figure out how that happened.

Maybe it wasn't working?

Maybe he didn't believe it when it indicated he was leaving the main road?

I wonder if questions like these will ever be answered.
 
I realize that Mr. Kim Sr. is a grieving father, and his emotions are driving his ideas. I am sincerely sorry for him and his family, and cannot imagine the grief this must be for him and his family.

Never the less, it makes absolutely NO sense to restrict forest road access to local people on the off chance that some tourist from the big city might wander by and do something dumb. Especially since there already were signs up warning that he was not on a good road.

James Kim's death was indeed a tragedy, but it is a tragedy which his was own fault and no one else's.

Especially not the government's!
 
This is something that truly makes me curious. James Kim was the technology editor for CNET. That makes him a gear-head. He was also, if memory serves, driving a late-model sedan (a SAAB?). How did he NOT have a GPS unit? I just can't figure out how that happened.

Maybe it wasn't working?

Maybe he didn't believe it when it indicated he was leaving the main road?

I wonder if questions like these will ever be answered.
From another thread on the subject it's apparent that the Saab was not equipped with a GPS and they didn't have a Garmin on the dashboard. I've been traveling with a Garmin GPS V on my dash since spring 2003; I won't go on a road trip without it. Would it have told me I was on a logging road? No, I checked and as soon as I made that first turn onto the logging road it would have indicated I was offroad -- close enough. At that point I'd find reverse and use it.
 
I'll bet you anything Kim Sr. is a liberal Democrat. Gotta be! Bet he voted for both Al Gore and John Kerry. He has not in all his years grasped one shred of the concept of personal responsibility. I suppose it would be too harsh for some if I said that his son's death was just natural selection at work, but...
 
Shall we turn or end this thread now, before it get's locked and people get their feelings hurt?

Codger
 
You people really disappoint me :mad:

Yall need to get a clue and realize that if anything bad happens it is the governments fault, I mean for goodness sake look at that hurricane that George Bush sent to New Orleans.
 
From another thread on the subject it's apparent that the Saab was not equipped with a GPS and they didn't have a Garmin on the dashboard. I've been traveling with a Garmin GPS V on my dash since spring 2003; I won't go on a road trip without it. Would it have told me I was on a logging road? No, I checked and as soon as I made that first turn onto the logging road it would have indicated I was offroad -- close enough. At that point I'd find reverse and use it.

Seriously? The CNET technology editor didn't bother to add a dash-mounted GPS unit to his road tripping vehicle. I just can't get over that.

Look, I have a 2000 F150 without a GPS unit in it. I've been thinking long and hard about adding a dash-mounted unit, but I keep thinking I'm going to sell the vehicle so I don't bother. Plus, 99% of the time when I travel with my family, we take my wife's Acura MDX and that DOES have a navigation system. I also just picked up a Garmin eTrex and I've discovered it actually works in my truck if I prop it up in the drink holder built into the dash. Even that's enough to show you you're off the beaten track.

I'm a gear head (meaning I like my electronic toys) and so I just naturally pick up these kind of things. For the CNET technology editor, someone who I expect to be an uber gear head, to NOT have a GPS in his vehicle, well, that just blows my mind. It isn't like the guy was a pauper or something either.

Not that a GPS is a substitute for a good map and a little common sense (I find both a good map and a GPS unit is the optimum in trip planning). Still, a GPS would have definitely have kept this guy out of trouble. Sad, really, when geeks don't behave the way they're supposed to.
 
This has nothing to do with wether or not Your liberal. The fact was, hes was unprepared, and could have had many more things with him with driving in thouse parts. Also I dont think its fair to say if he had only spend 500 dollars, mabye he was short that month, who knows. But the fact stands he could have been more prepared. And done something diffrently when he came to that part of the road.
 
I'll bet you anything Kim Sr. is a liberal Democrat. Gotta be! Bet he voted for both Al Gore and John Kerry. He has not in all his years grasped one shred of the concept of personal responsibility. I suppose it would be too harsh for some if I said that his son's death was just natural selection at work, but...

I want to point out at this time that I'm a liberal Democrat. I fully understand about personal responsibility too. If you want to take the subject up with me, come on over to the politics forum.
 
Kim's ego killed Kim, I said it when I first heard it and I'm sticking to it now.

His ego kept him driving forward when he should have seen signs that the route was getting worse.

His ego made him leave his wife and children stranded to get help with no idea where he was or where he was going.

His ego made him follow the river when just backtracking the road would have lead back to the highway.

If his father wants to blame something or someone, he should blame his son and his son's ego.

It's just that simple.
 
This has nothing to do with wether or not Your liberal. The fact was, hes was unprepared, and could have had many more things with him with driving in thouse parts. Also I dont think its fair to say if he had only spend 500 dollars, mabye he was short that month, who knows. But the fact stands he could have been more prepared. And done something diffrently when he came to that part of the road.

It might have been peer pressure that kept him from being prepared.

I recently went on a two-day trip to Arizona (from where I live in California). Being the cautious kind of a guy that I am, I insisted on bringing most of my camping gear, as well as blankets and emergency supplies that could have gotten us through three or four days in the car if need be. My wife kept telling me that "We aren't going camping you know," and "Why in the world are you bringing all that JUNK."

Did we need it? No. But I'd rather have it and not need it....

Once we got to Arizona, I talked my brother in law into taking me four wheeling into the desert. For my part, I planned on bringing a bottle of water, warm clothes and rain gear in a backpack (there was a storm blowing in and it was obviously going to rain). I had my usual PSK with me and assortment of knives too, of course, because I don't like to leave the pavement without them. I wasn't going to bring the rest of my wilderness gear because I assumed my brother in law would have anything we might need in the jeep. He's only been venturing into the desert like this for 30 years....

Well, he shows up and he had absolutely nothing in the jeep. No emergency supplies, no first aid kit, no hilift jack, no tools, no way to make a shelter. He didn't even have a folding knife (he borrowed mine while on the trip). He did have a coat with him (cotton, of course). A bottle of Mountain Dew was the extent of his emergency rations.

I took one look and started throwing the rest of my gear into the jeep, including a 2.5 gallon jug of water, some food, cook gear, etc.

To which he complained, "We aren't going for a month, you know. You've been hanging around with my sister for way too long. She always overpacks too."

Did we need any of that stuff? Nope! But I'm convinced that had I not brought it along, we would have ended up with a flat tire or a busted fan belt that would have had me kicking myself for succumbing to the pressure to not look like a fool. I mean, it got seriously COLD that night, the wind was blowing hard, and it rained to beat the band. I can't imagine what it would have been like if we'd gotten stuck 10 miles back on a 4 wheel drive road with the washes filling up and the road turning to mud.

Over confidence can get you killed. I just hope my brother in law never has to learn that lesson the hard way.

The point to this little tale is not only is it hard to convince yourself that you need to be prepared for bad things, but you'll also encounter many people who will actively deride you for taking preventative action. You've got to be stubborn if you're going to be "survival minded." For all we know, James Kim thought about bringing some extra stuff with him, but the wife (or someone) convinced him that it wasn't necessary.

Hopefully one of these days the full tale of what happened to the Kims will be told. I, for one, view it as an opportunity to learn and then Not Do That.
 
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