Alright boys, I want to join the Hamon club, help a brother out.

DeadboxHero

DeadboxHero

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
5,453
Sup guys.
I've been doing some reading and research but I'd like get the wisdom of the heads here before I buy stuff I don't need.

I'm doing a hunter, FFG, 6" blade.

I looked at Aldo, looks like we got W2 at 0.130 thickness.

Sounds like that's what I need to get that "white lighting" shooting threw the blade versus just a temper line.

Fire cement, any will do?

No soak no cycling for best results?

.25 thick on the cement? Dry in oven at 400 for 30min?

Do I need to do pregrinding or can I get a hamon from full stock to prevent warping.

Also does the brine need to be warm? Can't remember the ratio of salt to water either, I was thinking of using a 5 gallon bucket.

I'm using a propane forge and judging by color. (I know, I know, get an even heat etc)

Any help is appreciated since it will keep my spending down and keep a brother out of the doghouse hahaha

Thanks

Shawn.
 
I am no expert in hamon and have only ever done one. But from my collected information and what I have learned from the one I have done, Hand sanding is an important part of the process. Get it to a perfect 1000 grit bare minimum.

When it comes to etching, I got the best results in a full soak in heated vinegar. I did a few selective etches and wasn't very happy with the results. Although this may be entirely different with your steel.

If you have been researching this topic a bit, I am sure you have read something like, less etch, more polish. Its entirely true. Every time I polished (using 1500 grit silicon carbide abrasive powder) I had to make myself go back and polish again, and it is surprising how much the clarity is better when you just do that one more polish.

For cement I have rutlands fireplace cement. Its a bit easier to get than satanite. I think a .25 thick coating is too thick. Half that.

For brine I believe most guys use a 9% solution which is .75 pounds of salt to 1 gallon water. Most guys mix three pounds of salt and 4 gallons water to get a good amount. The solution should be heated to 100-120F. Some guys use an 7 or 8% solution as well.

My .02 Hope this helps.
 
Wanna show ya guys I'm serious haha I know in the past I've asked questions without having anything I was working on but for 2018 I'm getting serious about knife making.
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So I'm serious about this I want that Hamon haha

Shawn
 
My advice is to get a way to control austenitizing temperatures better than an uncontrolled forge/muffle before diving too far into the hamon hole. Temperature and soak time, aside from heat treat performance, just in regard to hamon development, are critical variables that will undoubtedly cause some head scratching and questions as to why this happened or didn't happen. You don't need a kiln, you can build a Fogg heat treating drum forge for very little money.

That said you can of course make it happen in a forge so here's my advice for your specific questions:

Sounds like that's what I need to get that "white lighting" shooting threw the blade versus just a temper line. Yes and no. The color is often more dependent on how it's etched and polished, but the gradient of transition between martensite and pearlite is what I personally consider a hamon, the more transition the better- but this is just my opinion.

Fire cement, any will do? Maybe? But probably not. The coarser cement mixes don't work very well at all. Satanite clay is probably the most common used. But people do use some furnace cement, I've used DAP furnace cement in the past with good results. The finer the granules the easier it is to apply as desired.

No soak no cycling for best results? Doubtful. Even if it were I wouldn't want to make a poor performing coarse grained blade with a really neato hamon. Soak time can however have an impact on how the hamon occurs. I don't modify my W2 heat treat whether I'm doing a hamon or not because I get good hamon development with my standard W2 heat treat. The only "rule" I follow us to use the lowest austenitizing temperature that reaches full as quenched hardness.

.25 thick on the cement? Dry in oven at 400 for 30min? Way too thick. I never go thicker than .100 and to get those wispy transitions I taper the thickness down to .030 and less at the ashii. As for baking it dry, it needs to be dry, I have my best results from 24 hour air drying, most attempts to speed up drying have resulted in air pockets that force the clay off the blade in the quench. I've had some successes but too many failures, it's far more repeatable if you allow to air dry over night. An hour at 200F after that if you are in a humid environment maybe. But you don't want to boil the water off, that's what causes failure. Sometimes I'll put them in the dehydrator at 150f if it's really humid out.

Do I need to do pregrinding or can I get a hamon from full stock to prevent warping. Depends on the thickness of the material. .125 stock you'll likely be OK heat treating before grinding. Much thicker than that, depending on the grind, and you risk losing hamon activity as the depth of hardening begins to equal the amount of material being removed.

Also does the brine need to be warm? Can't remember the ratio of salt to water either, I was thinking of using a 5 gallon bucket. Parks 50, or prepare for a lot of wasted time and material. Maybe you'll have better luck quenching before grinding.
 
Last edited:
kuraki said:
My advice is to get a way to control austenitizing temperatures better than an uncontrolled forge/muffle before diving too far into the hamon hole. Temperature and soak time, aside from heat treat performance, just in regard to hamon development, are critical variables that will undoubtedly cause some head scratching and questions as to why this happened or didn't happen. You don't need a kiln, you can build a Fogg heat treating drum forge for very little money.

That said you can of course make it happen in a forge so here's my advice for your specific questions:

Sounds like that's what I need to get that "white lighting" shooting threw the blade versus just a temper line. Yes and no. The color is often more dependent on how it's etched and polished, but the gradient of transition between martensite and pearlite is what I personally consider a hamon, the more transition the better- but this is just my opinion.

Fire cement, any will do? Maybe? But probably not. The coarser cement mixes don't work very well at all. Satanite clay is probably the most common used. But people do use some furnace cement, I've used DAP furnace cement in the past with good results. The finer the granules the easier it is to apply as desired.

No soak no cycling for best results? Doubtful. Even if it were I wouldn't want to make a poor performing coarse grained blade with a really neato hamon. Soak time can however have an impact on how the hamon occurs. I don't modify my W2 heat treat whether I'm doing a hamon or not because I get good hamon development with my standard W2 heat treat. The only "rule" I follow us to use the lowest austenitizing temperature that reaches full as quenched hardness.

.25 thick on the cement? Dry in oven at 400 for 30min? Way too thick. I never go thicker than .100 and to get those wispy transitions I taper the thickness down to .030 and less at the ashii. As for baking it dry, it needs to be dry, I have my best results from 24 hour air drying, most attempts to speed up drying have resulted in air pockets that force the clay off the blade in the quench. I've had some successes but too many failures, it's far more repeatable if you allow to air dry over night. An hour at 200F after that if you are in a humid environment maybe. But you don't want to boil the water off, that's what causes failure. Sometimes I'll put them in the dehydrator at 150f if it's really humid out.

Do I need to do pregrinding or can I get a hamon from full stock to prevent warping. Depends on the thickness of the material. .125 stock you'll likely be OK heat treating before grinding. Much thicker than that, depending on the grind, and you risk losing hamon activity as the depth of hardening begins to equal the amount of material being removed.

Also does the brine need to be warm? Can't remember the ratio of salt to water either, I was thinking of using a 5 gallon bucket. Parks 50, or prepare for a lot of wasted time and material. Maybe you'll have better luck quenching before grinding.
Click to expand...
DUDE, thankful
Thank you so much.

I'm at zero working towards hero so imI appreciate the experience you share, Thanks brother for the details.

I'll post some sick pictures of my success and failures here too so it won't go to waste.

Thanks

Shawn
 
kuraki said:
My advice is to get a way to control austenitizing temperatures better than an uncontrolled forge/muffle before diving too far into the hamon hole. Temperature and soak time, aside from heat treat performance, just in regard to hamon development, are critical variables that will undoubtedly cause some head scratching and questions as to why this happened or didn't happen. You don't need a kiln, you can build a Fogg heat treating drum forge for very little money.

That said you can of course make it happen in a forge so here's my advice for your specific questions:

Sounds like that's what I need to get that "white lighting" shooting threw the blade versus just a temper line. Yes and no. The color is often more dependent on how it's etched and polished, but the gradient of transition between martensite and pearlite is what I personally consider a hamon, the more transition the better- but this is just my opinion.

Fire cement, any will do? Maybe? But probably not. The coarser cement mixes don't work very well at all. Satanite clay is probably the most common used. But people do use some furnace cement, I've used DAP furnace cement in the past with good results. The finer the granules the easier it is to apply as desired.

No soak no cycling for best results? Doubtful. Even if it were I wouldn't want to make a poor performing coarse grained blade with a really neato hamon. Soak time can however have an impact on how the hamon occurs. I don't modify my W2 heat treat whether I'm doing a hamon or not because I get good hamon development with my standard W2 heat treat. The only "rule" I follow us to use the lowest austenitizing temperature that reaches full as quenched hardness.

.25 thick on the cement? Dry in oven at 400 for 30min? Way too thick. I never go thicker than .100 and to get those wispy transitions I taper the thickness down to .030 and less at the ashii. As for baking it dry, it needs to be dry, I have my best results from 24 hour air drying, most attempts to speed up drying have resulted in air pockets that force the clay off the blade in the quench. I've had some successes but too many failures, it's far more repeatable if you allow to air dry over night. An hour at 200F after that if you are in a humid environment maybe. But you don't want to boil the water off, that's what causes failure. Sometimes I'll put them in the dehydrator at 150f if it's really humid out.

Do I need to do pregrinding or can I get a hamon from full stock to prevent warping. Depends on the thickness of the material. .125 stock you'll likely be OK heat treating before grinding. Much thicker than that, depending on the grind, and you risk losing hamon activity as the depth of hardening begins to equal the amount of material being removed.

Also does the brine need to be warm? Can't remember the ratio of salt to water either, I was thinking of using a 5 gallon bucket. Parks 50, or prepare for a lot of wasted time and material. Maybe you'll have better luck quenching before grinding.
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Great advice all around. Very similar to my process, with minor variations.

I agree, heat treat for a great performing blade, and you can still get a great hamon.

If you must use brine, (not you kuraki) 3 seconds in brine, then heated canola to prevent breaks. I’ve broken two blades this way in the past year, but I find the majority survive. A 2h 1200f subcritical anneal AFTER carefully removing all stress risers to 400grit abrasives helps. With p50 or DT-48, 120grit seems to be fine. 120 helps the clay stick. I tend to apply sairset thin like you, max 0.125”, let dry for an hour, and heat treat. I’ll be switching to satanite when this bucket is done.
 
There is a hamon section in the stickys, and tons of hamon threads that can be found with a search. It would also be good to read a few good books on yaki-ire and togi, and maybe a few DVD's by folks like Walter Sorrells. The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Tetsuo Takaiwa is excellent on togi.

The clay is not thick. It is put on as a thin wash and then ashi lines are added. The spine is built up a tad more. The spine is rarely clayed more than .10". 1/4" of refractory will likely give you suguha or notare at most.

I and many others have abandoned water/brine quenching on any steel but Hitachi white #1. The failure rate is just too high. Use room temperature (60°-80°) Parks #50 and you will get plenty of activity.

Just a note on dealing with adults in a seriously professional subject like yaki-ire and hamons .. if you want to be taken serious, stop saying Hahha all the time.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
There is a hamon section in the stickys, and tons of hamon threads that can be found with a search. It would also be good to read a few good books on yaki-ire and togi, and maybe a few DVD's by folks like Walter Sorrells. The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Tetsuo Takaiwa is excellent on togi.

The clay is not thick. It is put on as a thin wash and then ashi lines are added. The spine is built up a tad more. The spine is rarely clayed more than .10". 1/4" of refractory will likely give you suguha or notare at most.

I and many others have abandoned water/brine quenching on any steel but Hitachi white #1. The failure rate is just too high. Use room temperature (60°-80°) Parks #50 and you will get plenty of activity.

Just a note on dealing with adults in a seriously professional subject like yaki-ire and hamons .. if you want to be taken serious, stop saying Hahha all the time.
Click to expand...


I linked the hamon thread above. I really need to fix the broken pic links. Maybe tomorrow.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
There is a hamon section in the stickys, and tons of hamon threads that can be found with a search. It would also be good to read a few good books on yaki-ire and togi, and maybe a few DVD's by folks like Walter Sorrells. The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Tetsuo Takaiwa is excellent on togi.

The clay is not thick. It is put on as a thin wash and then ashi lines are added. The spine is built up a tad more. The spine is rarely clayed more than .10". 1/4" of refractory will likely give you suguha or notare at most.

I and many others have abandoned water/brine quenching on any steel but Hitachi white #1. The failure rate is just too high. Use room temperature (60°-80°) Parks #50 and you will get plenty of activity.

Just a note on dealing with adults in a seriously professional subject like yaki-ire and hamons .. if you want to be taken serious, stop saying Hahha all the time.
Click to expand...
Yes sir,

Thank you Stacy,
It's been a journey to get this far.

I appreciate it.

Shawn
 
Ok, just trying to help, not be critical.

Clay to thick
Clay not sufficiently dry or was boiled, so you lost a hunk on the left side and that's why it warped that way, steel cooled faster than the other and contracted.
Clay isn't tapered off, even without ashi, clay of uniform thickness in a straight line is going to look like an edge quench.
And I'm guessing you water or brine quenched as that crack appears to have propagated the same way all of my failures have.

I have a blade I will apply clay to this weekend and will get pictures of how I do it.
 
What type of clay are you using? I would really recommend Satanite or APG-36.

Spine coat looks thick.
Brine/water quench often ends in failure.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
What type of clay are you using? I would really recommend Satanite or APG-36.

Spine coat looks thick.
Brine/water quench often ends in failure.
Click to expand...
I used Meecos red devil refactory cement.
I typed in satanite on Amazon, that's what came up
It's a white paste, very coarse, don't apply very well. It's runny and coarse.

I'll look for more details about satanite and apg-36.

I finally ordered some parks 50.
I understand now.
 
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