Am I being too picky?

[midnight flyer]

Good post, Robert.

Thanks. I try to watch what I type as this is truly something I don't understand. Somewhere, someway, somehow, knife manufacturers have convinced a great deal of people that because there are hand finishing steps to manufacturing knives, there will be substandard quality. And not only will it be OK, but you might just be a bit too picky if you say something. Or others laugh off concerns of poor workmanship in hand finishing as no concern since they "use" their knives.

I am on the other end of things. I feel that a hand finished should mean attention to detail, and all that goes with it. It doesn't mean that someone peened the pins, and polished off the manufacturing marks and threw it in a box for packaging. We buy knives today (me included) that we laugh about being obscenely dull out of the box. We buy knives that are so hard to open some just toss them in their sock drawer and buy something else.

We have been trained to say, "well.... that's the way they are.... substandard! But we expected that, right?"

Then get a good chuckle out of it.

I remember when CASE knives were hand fitted and finished, as were many others. But someway, back then it was an assurance of quality. You bought a CASE and a couple of other brands with complete confidence that your knife was ready to work. Now, I would buy a Rough Rider sight unseen before I would buy a new CASE.

Quality could be and should be more consistant. We get the dirty end of the stick when we have to pay more money and spend more time just to get the level of quality we should have gotten in the first place. And it happens way too often. The least they could do is pay for the shipping.

It just isn't right that the customer has to pay for the manufacturer's mistakes. They put out a bad product. They should cover ALL expenses regarding its resolve. Maybe even throw in a coupon for 50% off of your next purchase. If they had better quality control, they would seldom have to do this.

In my small company I do a bit of manufacturing. I do my own quality control. I oversee all my maintenance and repair projects at client's homes. If anyone thinks the knife industry is some kind of anomaly (which some have been trained to think), it isn't. It is manufacturing, either on a large or small scale depending on the manufacturer. And in a sense, no different from most businesses. Quality control, regardless of the business type, should be at the immediate hands of the company or person that is manufacturing the product if it is a brick, a sandwich, a cabinet or a knife.

When I make a mistake (and I certainly do), my clients are somewhat patient with me to remedy that mistake as soon as possible, with all costs coming out of my pocket. They don't pay for my snafus, nor do I expect them to do so. And I have never had a client check their front door after I fit the locks and *chuckle* if the locks don't easily work. Never had a client that told me he had lesser expectations of my hand installed efforts when I am installing 3 piece crown molding. They all seem to know what they want. I don't consider them picky. I get a fair market price for my efforts, and they should get a great job.

Love to see us get the same shake from the knife manufacturers. But if we keep expecting substandard products, I guarantee that they will keep supplying them.

Anyway... off the soap box.

Robert

 

[knarfeng]

I've done custom home remodeling as several levels of worker.
I've done mass production as a worker on the shop floor and as several types of engineer.

The two are not the same. The "quality" issues are quite different.

Case mass produces their knives.

 

[CoffeeCat2112]

I've had a knife or two, with apparent 'gaps' that looked like this (not just Case's knives, either). As it turned out, the 'gap' was sort of a very shallow recess/indent in the edge of the delrin scale, but not actually an open void under the scale. The 'darkness' of it was due to residual buffing compound or other grime collected in the recess, that when washed/cleaned away, almost made the apparent 'gap' disappear. The dirt/grime really stands out against the yellow scales (my examples were also yellow delrin). Might try wedging the end of a toothpick into the 'gap' and see if it's as deep as it appears. Also look for the buffing compound or other 'dirt' scraped away, on the end of the toothpick.

I have no idea how or why the shallow recess turns up at scale edges like this, but your pic looks amazingly similar to the ones I've seen. You mentioned the scale doesn't deflect inward, when pressed. That's consistent with what I described above.

For what it's worth, I can stick things down into it, like a cat's whisker or blade tip.

 

[mnblade]

I never really understood how -- with the exception of the handle scales -- manufacturing a Case knife is any different than manufacturing a Victorinox SAK. I mean, they're all just metal parts, right? If Victorinox can bang out X million springs and blades and caplifters and can openers etc. and have them all be more of less identical, why can't Case? And shouldn't they be able to just laser-cut a chunk of delrin, wood, bone or stag to a certain size every time? Then, take all the pieces, run a few rivets through 'em, and press. Then sharpen and polish it up a bit by hand. Doesn't seem all that hard. Then again, I was just an English major.

By the way, I'm not trying to be flip here. I really don't understand the challenges a mass producer like Case faces.

Oh, and I love my Case knives! Carry one every single day.

-- Mark

 

[jackknife]

Interesting thread.

I have to agree with Mark, that if the worlds largest knife factory, Victorinox, can turn out millions of near perfect knives every year, then the rest of the knife companies should be taking notice. But in one sense, we have been trained to accept mediocre quality. My life has spaned enough decades now that looking back, I can see a steady downward direction. Not just in knives, but cars, motorcycles, tools, whatever. Once upon a time, America used to make the best of everything. Now, a long term friend who owns a family run gun shop tells me that 50% of all the U.S. made guns he gets into his shop, have to go back to the factory for defects in manufacture.

With the begining of the 1960's, American business started to push more and more mediocre products out the door. Then by the 1970's it was out and out engineers bad stuff. Ever wonder why those funny looking little 'fur-en' cars got to be so well selling in America? Or why Glock has taken over the handgun market?

When dad gave me a brand new scout knife made by Camillus, it didn't have any gaps, blade play, or other defects. And the factory edge was very sharp. It was ready for use right out of the box. When I saved up my money for a Case sheath knife, it was perfect, sharp, and ready for use. But that was the 1950's. People still had a work ethic then.

Many of Case's knives use the same parts. Liners, bolsters, scales, and even blades. If the parts are made right, the knife will be good. As one who has spent a life in machinist manufacturing, I can tell you the individual parts have to be right. This means tooling. When tooling starts to wear out, it needs to be replaced. Yes, this is not cheap, to make new punches and dies, but if you are going to have a fine finished product, it has to be done. This is what makes Victorinox a stand out; they spend more of the profit money on new tooling, and up dating the machinery than most other companies. This is not done in the American business model. Like examples of Camillus and Schrade, the head honchos upstairs will continue to take huge bonus and saleries, not spend any money on tooling unless absolutely needed to keep the doors open, and then when the reputation gets so bad the business suffers, they scrap the business and retire to West Palm Beach. Like the vampires they are, they just toss the bloodless corpse aside.

I hate to think of Case going this way, but there is no excuse for a bad knife making it out the door. The people who are the final step, the QA people giving the knife a looking over before it goes in the box, need to be awake. A flawed knife needs to be tossed aside, not passed on to the customer. One bad knife means three or four people who may see it when the new owner bitches about the lack of quality to his friends. Those people will not buy a Case knife, based on what they saw their friend get. It does not have to be that way. If somebody has to fired right there, so be it. Maybe it will get the point across to the other workers.

Maybe the time has come for Case to take a long hard look what they are doing. When AMF finally dumped Harley-Davidson after bleeding them dry, the guys at Harley took a long look at the fact that they didn't want to go out. The execs bought the company and sent a survey team over to Japan to check out the competition. When they came back, they scrapped all the old machinery, and bought brand new Japanese machining centers with all the lastest tooling. As a result, Harley came back from the dead, and are now making pretty good motorcycles that are a 120% turn around from the junk AMF shoved out the door. It all came down to tooling. Make exact parts, and you will have a great product.

In that respect, there is no difference between making a sak and making a medium Texas jack. If the individual parts, blades, springs, scales, bolsters, are all made on good condition CNC machines with good tooling, then the individual parts will go together with precise fit. There's no way around it. And the workers have to care.

You can't make a great dinner from canned food.

Carl.

 

[FLymon]

Without flatly disagreeing with either Mark or Carl, I don't think there is any comparison between a "perfect" example of a Case knife and a "perfect" Victorinox.

The Victorinox are incredibly consistent, but they are not finished like a Case knife (when done right). They are just not "finished" much at all, just stamped/tumbled pieces and parts pressed together. I mean the knives are great, but in a bang for your buck (and in allot of cases novel) kind of way. I own several of both and I would not be interested in my Case SBJ, for example, if it was built like my Victorinox knives.

That being said, I think Case does an horrible often poor job of mass producing knives and doubt I will ever buy another one sight unseen. With Victorinox however I have no such reservations.

 

[CoffeeCat2112]

Wondering what I'll get back if I send it in is what keeps me from doing so, to be honest. I don't to end up with blade wobble or bad grinds. This knife has neither, and I don't want to end up with that. If they replace, who knows what I'll get. If they knock out the pins and rescale, who knows how it will fit when it goes back together.

 

[FLymon]

Wondering what I'll get back if I send it in is what keeps me from doing so, to be honest. I don't to end up with blade wobble or bad grinds. This knife has neither, and I don't want to end up with that. If they replace, who knows what I'll get. If they knock out the pins and rescale, who knows how it will fit when it goes back together.

"Ay, there's the rub"

Send it back and include a note saying how much you like everything else about the knife, you just want the scale repaired/replaced and expect everything else back as straight/tight/sharp etc.. as it is now. If they choose to replace it, ask that someone please take the time to make sure you get a "winner".

Then hope for the best.

 

[richstag]

Wondering what I'll get back if I send it in is what keeps me from doing so, to be honest. I don't to end up with blade wobble or bad grinds. This knife has neither, and I don't want to end up with that. If they replace, who knows what I'll get. If they knock out the pins and rescale, who knows how it will fit when it goes back together.

Thats why I suggested epoxy.

 

[CoffeeCat2112]

I'm honestly thinking about it, despite my initial misgivings.

 

[Modoc ED]

I wouldn't send it back until at least the 2nd week of January what with the Christmas rush in the various shippers systems -- USPS, UPS, FEDEX, etc..

 

[LKJW]

Carl, really good analogy with AMF and Harley. A lot of people would argue that Harley makes outdated bikes. Old technology. But they found a niche market and capitalized. Case could do the same thing. They are making an arguably 'outdated' product. But they are not making it well. My Uncle had an AMF Harley and it ran, but it was like a modern Case knife. The little things sucked. It vibrated like crazy (even for a HD), it leaked, it wasn't finished well.It ran, but it sure didn't make you want to go out and buy a Harley. Now, well...I'm not a HD fan, but they make a good, consistent product and understand what their customers want. Case needs to take notice or we will not be talking about them in a few years.

I agree, I have some case knives. Some I really like. But I had to send a lot back. Rough Riders are often better for 1/6th the price. When the loyalists are gone, there will be no reason to buy a Case knife. And those who care about where and how their knives were made are a dying breed. Sad.

 

[TheSharpStuff]

LOL I actualy sent case an email a while back about how some of their knives I handled had crappy fit and finish.
To my surprise someone actually emailed me back and asked more about the problems I saw in their knives, very good customer service.

 

[LKJW]

Maybe I was being a bit harsh. What I meant is that a knife used to be standard pocket fodder if you were alive and had hands. Now, not so much. And people who do have knives and don't care have the option of getting a pretty nice non-usa made knife for cheap. I'm not knocking chinese, japanese, german, or any other kind of knife. All I was saying (or trying to say) is that the percentage of people who carry knives now is less than it used to be. The percentage of those people who care who made there knife or how they made it isn't huge. And I think 'LOTS and LOTS' is an exaggeration.

I agree, lots of fine folks like knives. And lots of good knives are made in the USA. But think of all the knife companies in the US you could have named 50 years ago versus how many you named. It is what it is. But the times are changing.

I'm not a Case fan-boy. In fact, most of the knives I like were made in the USA by companies that don't exist anymore.

LKJW, You need to get out more,and be around some knife people. There are LOTS and LOTS of people who care where and how their knives are made.And there are Lots of GOOD PEOPLE here in the USA who make these knives. Great Eastern Cutlery,Canal Street Cutlery,and Moore Maker just to name a few. Made in the USA is not always "Made by Case".

 

[Modoc ED]

LKJW, You need to get out more,and be around some knife people. There are LOTS and LOTS of people who care where and how their knives are made.And there are Lots of GOOD PEOPLE here in the USA who make these knives. Great Eastern Cutlery,Canal Street Cutlery,and Moore Maker just to name a few. Made in the USA is not always "Made by Case".

Moore Maker doesn't make knives.

 

[LKJW]

I've lived all around this country, and if you think that as many people carry knives as used to...and that those knives are traditionals with carbon steel and pinned on shields, more power to ya brother...we're gonna have to agree to disagree. Most of the people I know carry modern folders. If they carry anything daily. The guys I know who carry knives are in the trades or bikers and they want something that is easy to open one handed and cheap to replace.

 

[quattromori]

Before I start, I should say that my post has little to do with the OP, but it seems like the thread has taken this direction
So lately I was asked (by someone who makes and sells knives) what are the most important features in a knife, in my opinion, and what pushes me towards buying a certain knife...and this made me think. Steel, pattern, looks, fit & finish, handle materials...it all matters of course.
But in this age of internet buying, there's one more thing that really matters to me.
I live in a small place with a tradition of handmade knives, so buying a production knife here is not like buying fish or vegetables...I don't get the chance to actually see and handle the product before I buy it. And this is not just because of the place I live in...the whole market has evolved alot, and I bet that most of you do the same; you order your knives without seeing them before.
There's nothing wrong in this of course. It's just the way things have changed, and somehow it reduces the price of the product (not just knives) by widening the retailers spectrum. Still, I would love to handle my knife before it becomes my knife. And here comes the problem.
My impression is that, more than a descent of quality level in knives, we see a growth in the standard deviation of quality. I may see the X knife in my neighbour's hands, and love it, and want to get one for me...why does this become a shot in the dark?
That's one of the main reasons why some knife producers (Victorinox is a great example, but there are others) have collected fans over the years. It's not just a matter of quality. It's consistency.
Would I buy a SAK "blinded"? Yes. I've done it with no fear. Not because I expected a 15 euro knife to be the best knife ever produced. But, I knew what I was buying, and when it got to my door, it was it. In a time of internet buying, the major challenge for a producer should be consistency. Surely it's rewarding. If all buyers are like me, at least

Fausto

 

[jackknife]

I've lived all around this country, and if you think that as many people carry knives as used to...and that those knives are traditionals with carbon steel and pinned on shields, more power to ya brother...we're gonna have to agree to disagree. Most of the people I know carry modern folders. If they carry anything daily. The guys I know who carry knives are in the trades or bikers and they want something that is easy to open one handed and cheap to replace.

As much as it distresses me to agree to this, I think you may be uncomfortably close to the truth. The pocket knife, as an icon of society, is fading in the face of a technological 21st century.

When I was a kid, everyman, no matter if a city dweller or country boy farmhand, had a pocketknife on him. It may have varied a little from a bigger one for the farmhand to a little pen knife for the city office worker, but it was there. Men also wore a watch.

Look around today on any high school or college campus and see how many young kids even bother to wear a watch anymore. No need as their cell phone is always there. The cell phone is also a camera, video recorder, alarm clock, GPS, and much more. The pocket knife has been replaced by cell phones, I pads and gizmos in importance to the everyday young person. Knife? What knife? You may be in a fix if you have to find a knife among the young and hip these days.

And that same technology that has moved us into Captain Kirk style communications has struck a maybe fatal blow to the cutlery industry. Easy to injection mold materials, CNC machines that turn out parts with .001 accuracy, Torx screws to assemble the precise parts quickly without the need for experienced cutlers to set and peen pins, make the modern one hand folder both fast and easy to make at a low cost. The people that I do know to carry a knife, will not spend a lot of money on one. The only people I know carrying traditional pocket knives are old fogy's in my age bracket. The young guys all seem to want something with a little wider use. Like multitools. Like the cell phone with a hundred uses, lots of people seem to like the idea of an everything tool. I don't think it's an accident that great old firms like Schrade, Camillus, and the old names like Empire, New York Knife company, Kinfolks, Remington, and about 50 others, have faded into history, while a Company like Victorinox is still the largest knife company in the world, and their stiffest competition comes from Leatherman. Leatherman is the sole reason Victorinox came out with the Swiss Tool.

I still have family down on the shore that are working watermen. It's a tough way to make a living, and it means a lot of damm hard work in any weather conditions. It also means a lot of knife work. Cutting salted eel or bull lips for the crab pot bait, cutting marline ( a tarred hemp cordage) and if need be, cut a line a very quick need if you get part of yourself tangled. Most of my family carry a modern stainless steel multitool. Leatherman, usually. What folding knives there are, are simple one hand gas station lockbacks. As my cousin Barry stated it with pure workingmans logic; " A knife is a disposable tool. It's going to get sharpened away on a carborundum stone." Like most watermen, Barry keeps a very course edge on his knives for going through wet nylon rope quick, let alone slippery eel bait.

Talk about trades people. We had our kitchen remodeled a few years ago. The young guys doing the work all had the Home Depot brand Husky cutters clipped in their pockets. The super tool things that take a utility knife blade and folds up like a real knife. No knife sharpening for these guys, they just pop a new blade in and keep going. One hand operation. These guys don't care about a nice pocket knife.

This attitude is very common. The knife as a disposable tool. A .99 cent screw driver, a .2.99 pair of pliers, a 2 dollar flea market knife. The knife is not appretiated anymore, like fine firearms. Look a the black guns of today. Every facet of them are for cheap and fast production. No fitted walnut stocks anymore. Don't even hold out for a nice blued finish. If you're lucky, you get some flat black epoxy finish that looks like hell, but is durable.

We, the people who make up knife forums like this are the few, the obsessed. We're knife knuts, and we make up maybe 1% of society at large these days. We're looked at by the rest of society as the weird and afflicted. And it's not getting any better.

Carl.

 

[LKJW]

Thanks for saying what I was trying to say better, bud. I agree 100%. My Brother in Law is a metal worker and he carries a folding box cutter with disposable blade. I've even offered to give him some of my knives and he isn't interested. The knife as an object of beauty and craftsmanship is disappearing and, as much as we may hate it, there is no stopping it. You explained the phenomena perfectly. Why even bother sharpening a knife if you're not 'into' knives. And you are right; we are few.

Case in point...my wife doesn't love knives. We've been moving and cutting down boxes. She has the pick of 100's. I've been carrying my forum knife. She has had a Kershaw Leek clipped to her pocket the whole time. I ride with a lot of guys and they all carry 4" black 'tactical' folders or something close to it.

 

[LKJW]

Guess I can't delete. Sorry.