Am I getting too picky or have standards dropped off?

[Bugout Bill]

Think about doubling the cost of those said knives compared to what they cost now and you would be getting close to what it would cost to even start to get to the level of F&F the picky people think they want.

I say think because to get they would have to pay a lot more in the end as the cost per unit would sky rocket......

Most of the time reality and fantasy aren't even close.

What would the difference in cost be between a hypothetical Taichung made military and a Golden made military? (Assuming the perception that Taichung is better is actually true)

 

[Ankerson]

What would the difference in cost be between a hypothetical Taichung made military and a Golden made military? (Assuming the perception that Taichung is better is actually true)

Couldn't really say, I think they would end up about the same or maybe even more once all the duties etc have been paid.

As the level of tolerances and F&F goes up so does the cost of the end product.

Companies are not in the business to lose money and they have to maintain a certain profit margin to cover expenses, if they don't they won't be in business for very long.

 

[Tixx]

Flaw: a mark, fault, or other imperfection that mars a substance or object

Think we are missing the point now. What I hear:

1) Some people have GOD on their side and never have a flaw or cannot detect one with their senses. (not sure which, but both are possible)

2) Other people notice the flaw, but are ok with them (for said reason though irrelevant to the fact that there is in fact a flaw/s)

3) Other people noticing the flaw and not wanting it to be there.

So when you purchase a $30 item made in china with no dings, dents, centering issues, machining issues...and then turn around and purchase a $300 item with one or more flaws, I think on a relevant scale it is reasonable to assume that as price increases, flaws should decrease (just logical). What should not be assumed is that each given item must cost twice (or some other multiplier) as much to remove the flaws since flaws are not ever part of the description of a given item (except for some blem sales I see and such). I think thus far people are just visually inspecting their items and not discussing on a microscopic level. I think that would be a whole different story altogether.

 

[jeffwithaj]

I think it depends on how hard a person looks for issues.....

If it's a user and the person just makes sure it works as it should and it doesn't have any really noticeable issues that one would see at a quick glance then it's fine.

The problem is that some people are putting the knives under a microscope and or are starring at them looking for things that are wrong.....

^^^^^^^^^
This




Look hard and long enough and you can find a flaw in anything.

 

[Tixx]

I would be more than happy to put up what I consider flawed items for full price to anyone here. Seems like there is a market and I will gladly be it's maker.

 

[getout87]

i think with the advent of the internet and knife nuts being able to freely talk about it, standards have increased on the customer end i believe.

like someone posted, i don't expect perfection on any production model knife.

 

[LadyEarth]

Knives are made either in the Factory or in a Forge, both being around big machines or big tools.
Knives are also handled by humans, either a singular human or many.
Humans are itself already an imperfect creature so why should we expect perfect knives? There are bound to be imperfections on any of our creations no matter how hard we try to prevent imperfections from happening.

Why worry over a scratch or dent or what so ever when one day soon, we will all die and those knives will some day fade away into the history of time, mindless and careless of how hard you took care of it.

Nothing lasts forever. Now go enjoy life and the various human creations we have made while living.

 

[Tixx]

i think with the advent of the internet and knife nuts being able to freely talk about it, standards have increased on the customer end i believe.

like someone posted, i don't expect perfection on any production model knife.

Right, so you are in the group that acknowledges flaws, but accepts them. Lower expectations. Isn't that a SNL skit?

 

[mqqn]

It not just my recent spydercos. Its all knives from all dealers. If I buy off of ebay its used stuff which I excuse much of any blemishes. I dont feel comfortable naming any dealers as they all have stellar reputations and there is no proof of how the marks got there. And my goal is not to sit and accuse dealers of marking up knives and then trying to pass them off as new. Im asking in general, should a knife be perfect if it cost more than $200 no matter how the marks got there before the purchaser.

You can have expectations, and that is your right.

When you purchase a new vehicle, how closely do you scrutinize that purchase? You are spending thousands of dollars, and there are hundreds of thousands of potential points of failure.

Would you return the car if it had a small scratch on the rocker panel?

I have a great friend who; while I love him to death, I would never consider selling him a car or any other major item.

The reason? This fellow is so particular about stuff, in the 35 years I have known him, every single new car he has purchased has been an unending series of problems for him and consequently the dealership that sells him the car.

AT one point, after my friend was almost living at the local Chevy dealer, the dealer representative finally told my friend that you are buying a production vehicle, and you can't pick the build apart like you would a custom hot rod.

Bottom line - if you don't like your purchase, try to get satisfaction.

I would submit that you are probably too picky, but again, that is your perogative. You may be remembering the "good old days" when everything was perfect with a bit of haze and rose coloring.

best

mqqn

 

[Tixx]

Knives are made either in the Factory or in a Forge, both being around big machines or big tools.
Knives are also handled by humans, either a singular human or many.
Humans are itself already an imperfect creature so why should we expect perfect knives? There are bound to be imperfections on any of our creations no matter how hard we try to prevent imperfections from happening.

Why worry over a scratch or dent or what so ever when one day soon, we will all die and those knives will some day fade away into the history of time, mindless and careless of how hard you took care of it.

Nothing lasts forever. Now go enjoy life and the various human creations we have made while living.

Correct, but you are paying out your hard earned money that you are making during this short time for others to be giving lesser quality and making more money at your expense. Really, I see a market here for full priced imperfect items. I need to start manufacturing for this crowd! I can make a killing here.

 

[Tixx]

You can have expectations, and that is your right.

When you purchase a new vehicle, how closely do you scrutinize that purchase? You are spending thousands of dollars, and there are hundreds of thousands of potential points of failure.

Would you return the car if it had a small scratch on the rocker panel?

I have a great friend who; while I love him to death, I would never consider selling him a car or any other major item.

The reason? This fellow is so particular about stuff, in the 35 years I have known him, every single new car he has purchased has been an unending series of problems for him and consequently the dealership that sells him the car.

AT one point, after my friend was almost living at the local Chevy dealer, the dealer representative finally told my friend that you are buying a production vehicle, and you can't pick the build apart like you would a custom hot rod.

Bottom line - if you don't like your purchase, try to get satisfaction.

I would submit that you are probably too picky, but again, that is your perogative. You may be remembering the "good old days" when everything was perfect with a bit of haze and rose coloring.

best

mqqn

Kind of irrelevant since clearly outside the standard deviations and is a extreme case. I feel bad for the guy. Remember the days when there was pride in quality and craftsmanship?

 

[LadyEarth]

Tixx, while I understand your stance/thoughts, I still think you're missing my point. My point is that no matter how stringent the creator is of an object in the making, there is bound to be imperfection somehow somewhere on the knife itself. And then the knife is just going to sit there...sharp and unused for years to come with the owner being terrified of even putting a finger print on the blade. It's great that it might be considered art but at the end of the day, it's still a tool that will take a beating and still come out on top, scratched filled "flaws" or not.

In another word, I think people that expects perfection every time they buy something is just a person that is full of unreasonable entitlements. There is such thing as going overboard in expectations and the opposite holds true for those that accepts really low standards for a product.

Everything in moderation, that's the key.

 

[theAntihero]

Correct, but you are paying out your hard earned money that you are making during this short time for others to be giving lesser quality and making more money at your expense. Really, I see a market here for full priced imperfect items. I need to start manufacturing for this crowd! I can make a killing here.

It depends on the flaw but the problem that i see in your theory is the whole "Buyers Entitlement" thing.

When you buy a knife is it marketed as "flawless"? No, its usually marketed as new meaning that it is new from the factory and not flawless. Every single item you buy will have some sort of flaw no matter what, its a mass produced item.

 

[PURPLEDC]

You can have expectations, and that is your right.

When you purchase a new vehicle, how closely do you scrutinize that purchase? You are spending thousands of dollars, and there are hundreds of thousands of potential points of failure.

Would you return the car if it had a small scratch on the rocker panel?

I have a great friend who; while I love him to death, I would never consider selling him a car or any other major item.

The reason? This fellow is so particular about stuff, in the 35 years I have known him, every single new car he has purchased has been an unending series of problems for him and consequently the dealership that sells him the car.

AT one point, after my friend was almost living at the local Chevy dealer, the dealer representative finally told my friend that you are buying a production vehicle, and you can't pick the build apart like you would a custom hot rod.

Bottom line - if you don't like your purchase, try to get satisfaction.

I would submit that you are probably too picky, but again, that is your perogative. You may be remembering the "good old days" when everything was perfect with a bit of haze and rose coloring.

best

mqqn

Would I return a new car if it had a scratch? No. Would I request they buff it out and return it if they refused? yes. Do I buy new cars? No. I buy certified pre owned cars because I dont collect cars. I use a car. And I know that an item i use is going to get damaged. So to safe money and weaken the blow of the first ding I buy used. Knives I collect. I buy a few to use, others dont get used at all. Those are the ones I really scrutinize. Because IMHO it sucks when you buy a brand new knife, never use it and then go to sell it yet lose more money than you normally would because you simply cant convince a second hand buyer that "thats just how they come".

 

[PURPLEDC]

Tixx, while I understand your stance/thoughts, I still think you're missing my point. My point is that no matter how stringent the creator is of an object in the making, there is bound to be imperfection somehow somewhere on the knife itself. And then the knife is just going to sit there...sharp and unused for years to come with the owner being terrified of even putting a finger print on the blade. It's great that it might be considered art but at the end of the day, it's still a tool that will take a beating and still come out on top, scratched filled "flaws" or not.

In another word, I think people that expects perfection every time they buy something is just a person that is full of unreasonable entitlements. There is such thing as going overboard in expectations and the opposite holds true for those that accepts really low standards for a product.

Everything in moderation, that's the key.

But then where do you draw the line? If people lower their standards and say that buying a product with visible flaws is acceptable at what point do the flaws become unacceptable. I think what really bothers me about it is that 30 years ago products seemed to be infinitely higher quality, made from better materials and cost less. Now we have cheaply made items from inferior materials that break a year after you purchase them. The saddest part is that the products of 30 year ago were made with more human input that the CNC robot made products we deal with today. I would have thought with technological advancements being what they are that it would be the opposite. Mind you I'm generalizing here and not speaking solely about knives anymore.

Knives are made either in the Factory or in a Forge, both being around big machines or big tools.
Knives are also handled by humans, either a singular human or many.
Humans are itself already an imperfect creature so why should we expect perfect knives? There are bound to be imperfections on any of our creations no matter how hard we try to prevent imperfections from happening.

Why worry over a scratch or dent or what so ever when one day soon, we will all die and those knives will some day fade away into the history of time, mindless and careless of how hard you took care of it.

Nothing lasts forever. Now go enjoy life and the various human creations we have made while living.

again where does the line get drawn for a specific price point. And what standards are acceptable. Take USA knifemaking quality. You have knives from various companies that cost around the same price from comparable materials yet certain manufacturers have a reputation for extremely high quality and precision (benchmade for one example) while some others have developed a reputation for cutting corners and not delivering (bear MGC as an example) at the same price price point. And I cant help but think that the quality of a product will go down and prices will rise if we allow it to happen.

 

[mqqn]

Would I return a new car if it had a scratch? No. Would I request they buff it out and return it if they refused? yes. Do I buy new cars? No. I buy certified pre owned cars because I dont collect cars. I use a car. And I know that an item i use is going to get damaged. So to safe money and weaken the blow of the first ding I buy used. Knives I collect. I buy a few to use, others dont get used at all. Those are the ones I really scrutinize. Because IMHO it sucks when you buy a brand new knife, never use it and then go to sell it yet lose more money than you normally would because you simply cant convince a second hand buyer that "thats just how they come".

I work for a company that makes large heavy equipment (dozers, end loaders, scrapers, excavators etc.). We know that in some parts of the world we have to deliver a product that has a perfect finish, as some of our customers want a perfect paint job, perfect ornamentation etc., even though we all know the very first time this machine is used it will be permanently blemished.

My analogy of the car was apropos, as a car and MOST knives are made to be used. You are buying tools that were made to be used, but your use is different than the manufacturer intends.

In the USA, my company knows that a large mining customer is not going to give two hunks of rat fur that there is a scratch on the dump-bed of a truck, or a blemish on a dozer blade tooth, it just does not matter or warrant any more attention to detail. However, we do strive to deliver a perfect product that will delight the customer.

You do absolutely deserve to be delighted with your purchases, and as I stated before you should try to get satisfaction if you find something wrong with your purchase.

I reiterate that, as you asked in your original post, you are too picky in that you are buying a tool that is to be used, and your complaint is that the knife is not perfect in every way.

Has the level of quality gone down since "the good old days"?

Absolutely not. Products are much higher in overall quality today than they were in the past, even the fairly recent past. What were your choices in, say, 1970? 1980?

There have been advances in design, materials, execution; we have 3d machined aluminum and titanium, super steels, ball bearing pivots.

As a collector, you might even be disappointed if the BOX were somehow not perfect, as that would potentially impact your resale.

You state that you do not want to have to convince a second hand buyer that "that's how they come", presumably because you want top dollar for your "collector knife".

Back to my car analogy. Early Corvettes were far from perfect. They had ripples in the bodies, poorly fitting panels, inferior paint and yet today those same qualities make them more valuable as a collectible in original condition in today's market.

If you are truly a collector, you will probably be much happier if you were to buy multi-thousand dollar custom knives than you ever will be buying $200 and $300 dollar knives that are really intended to be used.

Finally, I have either had exemplary luck in my purchases, or I am just not sensitive or able to detect flaw as you are able to, and that may be a large part of our differences.

I do understand your frustration though. My frustrations today are more oriented toward the service industries, where "blemished" products are rampant in my opinion.

I wish you much luck in your collecting, and I sincerely hope that you can find the knives that will make you most happy.

best

mqqn

 

[Jagrmaister]

If you're not satisfied, you voice it and return it for either an exchange or refund as the example just isn't to your standards. This is customer-based quality control. A $50 knife can carry blemishes when I get it, I'm not thrilled, but I'll accept it. A $150 knife may not. I demand more. An example is I just received a new in box exclusive. The knife was in excess of $150. It had problems that others may have overlooked, but when I shell out that kind of cash, I expect more...that's why I'm shelling out more $$$. It went back to the distributor, easy as that.

Standards have improved, and you're not picky. With $35 Chinese Spydercos proving they can be perfect out of box I just don't accept any excuses with knives that approach two bills lacking fit and finish whether they're to be collector pieces or users. I also don't recommend anyone else accept them either.

 

[Badhammer]

Used to think you could never be "too picky" then I read a post about how someone didn't like the sound their new knife made when it was opened. Yep, thought the sound it made when the blade locked should be different for such a high priced knife. IIRC the thread was about a Sebenza. When people get the point where they are complaining about the tone/pitch of the sound profile a knife makes when the lock engages I think we've overstepped the bounds of normal quality perception.

 

[mr_anderson]

"my knife doesn't sound right, therefore it sucks" Someone actually questioned if his new Para 2 was real or not because it was too quiet.

Used to think you could never be "too picky" then I read a post about how someone didn't like the sound their new knife made when it was opened. Yep, thought the sound it made when the blade locked should be different for such a high priced knife. IIRC the thread was about a Sebenza. When people get the point where they are complaining about the tone/pitch of the sound profile a knife makes when the lock engages I think we've overstepped the bounds of normal quality perception.

 

[mr_anderson]

To be honest, more than 3/4 of my knives are not users, but not really safe queens either. I bought them as backups if I either lost or broke my main knife. So knives that that I bought as users were all pretty darn near perfect. I think on one of my Para 2 sprints the grind lines are a tad more pronounced, but not that much.