America and the dollar

[fredricktoo]

otherworldly, phantasmagoric, shadowy, nightmarish?

ZOMBIES?!?

are there left and right wing zombies?

 

[tychoseven]

Wow. Just...wow. News flash: how many "hundreds of years" has the US been around? They couldn't have been too perceptive, because we're still
here.

Seriously? Did you read what I wrote?

All civilizations begin dying as soon as they are founded. It's a pattern that's been repeated countless times throughout history. However, I'm not referring solely to the US, but to Western civilization and Globalization.

If one is willing to look beyond the realm of human social bounds, it becomes readily apparent that our "progress" as a species is a slow suicide. Most people are not willing to do so, not to mention those who simply cannot due to mental shortcomings. When a species inhabits an environment of a fixed size (like the earth), and there are no natural predators and plentiful food, they will breed exponentially until the ecosystem can no longer support them. It doesn't matter if we're talking about bacteria or deer or humans. 6 billion people is too many, and I don't see any steps being taken to reduce that number to something reasonable (under 1 billion). That alone is a serious problem, not to mention the ecological damage we perpetuate with our first-world lifestyles of conspicuous consumption. If China and Europe follow our economic lead, as it appears they are commited to doing, we're going to create global pollution on an unprecedented scale.

Since you're playing the dictionary game, here's one for you.

Main Entry: ide·al·ism

Function: noun
(1) : a theory that ultimate reality lies in a realm transcending phenomena
(2) : a theory that the essential nature of reality lies in consciousness or reason


The material is a reflection of the ideal, you grok? Maybe you love strip malls and concrete so much you want to see the world covered in them. Perhaps you want a global culture that consists of partying and talking about TV shows. Maybe you like suckling at the teat of consumerism, working a menial, spirit-crushing job so you can have chump change to buy enough DVDs or alcohol to distract yourself from the yawning void that is your life. The world we create is a reflection of our ideals. That is idealism.

-Tycho-

 

[BrentH]

"not to mention those who simply cannot due to mental shortcomings."

Seems to me, democracy is inclusive of those mentioned above.

IIRC someone many years ago, had the same worries. He hoped for 1000yrs of sanity.
Did not pan out, as it happens - too many people prefer inclusivness. Sad tho it may be, the plebs generally rule.

What happened to the dancing bear? Became used to it.

 

[fredricktoo]

"If one is willing to look beyond the realm of human social bounds, it becomes readily apparent that our "progress" as a species is a slow suicide"

We're all gonna be gone. A very, very long time as a species. And the one thing the universe will have gained, according to George Carlin, the one thing that God forgot to include will be here. Styrofoam

 

[BrentH]

"We're all gonna be gone. A very, very long time as a species. And the one thing the universe will have gained, according to George Carlin, the one thing that God forgot to include will be here. Styrofoam"

Rest my case..

 

[Fiddleback]

Tycho, you need some meds. I guess whenever a civilization is on top there is going to be someone who will refuse to take part in their culture. He imagines himself as above it, and cynically, points out its flaws and ignores its beauty. Obviously overpopulation of the globe is becoming a problem. I can tell you that the earth will rectify the situation herself without your help.

We are all given a limited time here, why not enjoy it. Why so cynical. America is not devoid of culture. We love art, cinema, holiday gatherings, parades, Christmas Lights, carving the pumpkin...etc. Do you know how much work it is for me to get those lights onto my home. Dangerous too. Then I bring out my daughter and turn them on and watch the look on her face. I teach her about our GREAT history. I tell her of the heroic military history in our family. We travel. What are you talking about? You are missing out on the culture here in the USA, and its sad.

 

[munk]

I'd like to think we can make it. Somehow. The 'can do' American spirit is not gone, and it took Rome an awfully long time to die.







munk

 

[munk]

I guess whenever a civilization is on top there is going to be someone who will refuse to take part in their culture. He imagines himself as above it, and cynically, points out its flaws and ignores its beauty.>>>>>> aproy

You've done it! I haven't even had my first cup of coffee or tea but I must respond to this quote. Yes. Yes. I think this starts in adolescence, the natural rite of passage as you leave the home and redefine yourself as an adult. The exact same dynamic seems to happen over culture and civilization regarding the leading World power or presence. This is fascinating stuff to me. I've long believed it is the 'children' of civilization that help to bring it down.

munk

 

[Dave Rishar]

If there's only room for one billion to remain, who decides which billion?

(Don't look at me. I'm staying, but I'm not in charge.)

 

[munk]

It is the responsibility of every generation to look the naysayers, the intellectuals, and the artists in the eye and say; "There is still hope and good here."


munk

 

[namaarie]

Man, this thread is an interesting read. I thought it might just turn to flames and go downhill, but this has ended up in a really good place.

Well said, Aproy and Munk. God, that message just hits home. I know so many people who just hate everything about society. Think they're superior. But they have nothing constructive to add! You just spoke my heart exactly.

Chris

 

[Yvsa]

If there's only room for one billion to remain, who decides which billion?

(Don't look at me. I'm staying, but I'm not in charge.)

I'm still willing to go even with feeling better than I have in years.:thumbup: Threaten me with a great time will you?
Could be the main one thing I was taught over the last several years is that there is nothing too fear on the other side. There will still be much to do.:thumbup:

 

[Thomas Linton]

Bill, I have to agree with a lot of what you said. When I was a CWA union steward for a short while I aways said I had no problem with a foreman using a screwdriver as long as there was an hourly standing there with his hands in his pockets watching him.

One of the most difficult jobs is that of a telephone repair foreman:
1) The customer is aways mad.
2) The union(s) is/are on his back.
3) His workers will get away with whatever they can and will be disgruntled.
4) His supervisor wants him to work "smarter".
5) Corporate will be justifying their existance by the managment fad of the month (e.g Japanese Managment),
6) Did I mention OSHA?
7) Did I mention the PUC General Order 95?
8) Oh yeah, and when he gets home his wife is going to say "We never go anywhere."

9) If he works less than 50 hrs./wk (paid for 40), he is exhibiting "poor attendance" and "is not a team player."

 

[Thomas Linton]

I conclude everyone should own corporate stock.

Under communism, the people own the means of production; it has been shown that that sort of economic democracy does not work.

n2s

Under Communism, the State owned the "heights of the economy." No citizen of the USSR thought that meant they owned anything. Only "intellectuals" of the left were confused on that issue.

Not sure of what that has to do with owning an interest in a private business.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Our "great economy" is now just propped up by China's central bank and the Japanese government, who buys a tremendous amount of our debt and government securities to keep up going and buying more of their stuff. If they wanted to, they could probably devastate and probably destroy our economy. We could be another Soviet Union. I'm not taking a conservative or liberal side, I'm just making an independant observation, like any good CPA, and saying that Folks, we've been sold out.

Did not the majority demand the spending/income imbalance that creates the national debt? If so, folks, "we the people" sold outselves out.

(The last Presidential candidate who ran on cutting spending AND increasing income tax rates just died.)

 

[Lion's Roar]

Yes and no. There are more dynamics at play than we the people. The left and right sides of politics have both contributed to our current state of affairs. There are some dynamics that are generally out of the range of the people now. You can elect someone on how they represent the way you see things, but that doesn't mean that when you start getting into complicated economic issues and regulatory smoke and mirrors, that your will shall be done. For instance, If China would quit using a fixed exchange rate pegged to the dollar, then we could start balancing back out. That's not going to happen because they have too much political clout now in the US, regardless of what most voters want. In the American "heartland", which voted for Bush, there is a palpable concern about jobs moving overseas, for good concern. This ball was rolling before Bush came into office, but hasn't stopped growing momentum. There are no easy answers.

 

[BrentH]

Mr Roar, you are so right. Question is, how much should we worry.
We are a tiny nation of four million people. We are expected to maintain an army, airforce & navy! Plus keep the ledger in the black by the sweat of our collective brow.
Our politicans of both colors decided to make us more efficient by removing all subsidies to industry.
It worked - to a degree.
The global playing field is not level.
On top of this, Japanese Mums & Dads, have decided our bonds are the flavor of choice for their super funds.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=3&ObjectID=10360547

Thereby ratcheting our dollar to a level that is not sustainable.
This puts our national economy at risk.
Nothing anyone can do!

We have a colloquial philosophical remark for situations like this. "She'll be right"
Which translates to Munks observation earlier -

"I'd like to think we can make it. Somehow." (munk):thumbup:

 

[tychoseven]

Tycho, you need some meds. I guess whenever a civilization is on top there is going to be someone who will refuse to take part in their culture. He imagines himself as above it, and cynically, points out its flaws and ignores its beauty. Obviously overpopulation of the globe is becoming a problem. I can tell you that the earth will rectify the situation herself without your help.

Medication would be an admission of weakness, or cynical fatalism more accurately. It'd be saying "I can't help myself, so let's dope me up until I can't feel anything and I don't care that I'm depressed." Ignore the problem, and you'll be happy. It's too late for that, because I can't return to ignorance short of severe head trauma. Besides, my distress stems from simple observation of external circumstances and events. Taking meds won't clear away the smog or roar of traffic outside.

Though I may seem superior, haughty, or condescending, I am keenly aware of my own limitations as a thinker. This is the source of my dislike for our society. If I'm not that smart, and I observe that I'm surrounded by people far less introspective and analytical, let alone intelligent, I cannot but feel disdain for their superficial and destructive lives. I see little about our "culture" that's substantial and the assertion that one's society is "on top" is a common symptom of civilizations in decline. Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West is an excellent look at the lifespan of civilizations, which are more like organic beings than abstract structure. The writings of Emerson, Thoreau, Nietzsche, and Schopenhauer have likewise been highly illuminating, and the Bhagahvad Gita provides much more practical information than any Western relgious texts.

We are all given a limited time here, why not enjoy it. Why so cynical. America is not devoid of culture. We love art, cinema, holiday gatherings, parades, Christmas Lights, carving the pumpkin...etc. Do you know how much work it is for me to get those lights onto my home. Dangerous too. Then I bring out my daughter and turn them on and watch the look on her face. I teach her about our GREAT history. I tell her of the heroic military history in our family. We travel. What are you talking about? You are missing out on the culture here in the USA, and its sad.

I do my best to enjoy my time. Anything less would be a terrible waste. This morning I had a fantastic ride on my bicycle through monsoon-like rains. I was completely soaked when I arrived at work, but I couldn't have been happier. Well, perhaps only if I hadn't been riding to work. The trouble is, I don't value the same things most people do. I don't watch TV, or go to movies, or listen to the radio. I'd rather sit on top of a mountain by myself and just listen. Most people's idea of a good night out is bar hopping and/or hitting on vapid girls with more makeup than personality. I also seek a woman who is fit, and beautiful, but interesting and thoughful above all others. I have little in common with the commoners. See, there's my superiority. But it's true, most people are commoners, because their ancestors were commoners and nobility requires discipline most people lack. My lineage is probably base as well, so don't think I have delusions of noble heritage. But there's more to nobility than genetics, despite what the Nazis would have us believe. I simply prefer higher orders to lesser ones, and I know of few who think likewise.

"not to mention those who simply cannot due to mental shortcomings."

Seems to me, democracy is inclusive of those mentioned above.

IIRC someone many years ago, had the same worries. He hoped for 1000yrs of sanity.
Did not pan out, as it happens - too many people prefer inclusivness. Sad tho it may be, the plebs generally rule.

What happened to the dancing bear? Became used to it.

This is my major issue with democracy. I think it's fantastic for certain communities, namely those of fewer than 200 individuals of approximately equal intelligence. It doesn't work with even 300 people, because at that point the community factionalizes and nothing gets done because then people can only agree on the basest decisions. I had firsthand experience with this at my university of 350 people. The basis of the school government was direct democracy, where all the students, faculty, and staff had equal say. It worked well when there were 150 students. When the student population topped 300, the administration had to take the reigns so that something would get done and left the students to argue over by-laws.

Democracy assumes that the voters are intelligent and will make logical decisions. This clearly is not the case. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good one, and contrawise one cannot use the same argument to write off another's ideas because "everybody has their own opinion." People vary in intellectual ability, and those with more ability can comprehend the structure of reality to a finer degree. Stupid people will often have inaccurate opinions, and smarter people tend to have more accurate ones. This is logical, but I constantly encounter the "it's only your opinion" argument when discussing anything of a serious nature. The proles will always out-vote the intelligent in a democracy through force of numbers.

I got rid of the bear because I wanted my own avatar, but...eh. It was as good as any I suppose. I kinda miss that 'ol bear...

If there's only room for one billion to remain, who decides which billion?

We don't have to go from 6+ to sub-1 overnight. I'd say offer a lifetime supply of free beer or something in exchange for voluntary sterilization. Bring back dueling and honor killings, and get rid of all those warning labels on obviously dangerous things, like the "do not put head in woodchipper" signs. That's where I'd start.

-Tycho-

 

[BrentH]

tychoseven. I do not agree with you, or your sentiments!
But , I respect your right to have them.
I am not an American!
Am prepared, non the less, to fight for your right to express them!
You go well my young friend.
Thoughts such as yours, make us rethink our ideals.
We all become stronger for that.

 

[Spectre]

Tycho, the best lies are partially true. Yours are, too. When you make a statement like this:

All civilizations begin dying as soon as they are founded

, it is indeed partially true. It is at least as much false, though.

One can make a similar statement about any organism, and indeed, it is true that some cells begin dying from inception of any organism. It is also true that the organism will grow in size, and is at the beginning of its life, even though it is "dying". I find the rest of your statements similarly specious. :barf:

John