America and the dollar

I've been dying ever since I met John. They call him Spectre for a reason, you know.



munk
 
It is the responsibility of every generation to look the naysayers, the intellectuals, and the artists in the eye and say; "There is still hope and good here."
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I sort of skimmed into the middle of this one and spotted this comment... All I can say is AMEN. And this my friends comes from someone who used to be a part of that crowd.

the belief that your are "in the know" and above the fray of the common folk is unfortunately a seductive drug. It infests large numbers of people in this country. Ironically those who feel this way often think of themselves as advocates for the people.

you can't help people while simultaneously looking down on them. Pity is just lazy hatred.
 
Under communisim like Tom said people did not feel like they owned their businesses and no matter how hard they worked they could never become prosperous.

However if we allow the erosion of wages for the majority of people working here in our capatalistic society, to where no matter how hard we work the chance of working your way up is very difficult, the result is the same.
 
tychoseven said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentH
"not to mention those who simply cannot due to mental shortcomings."

Seems to me, democracy is inclusive of those mentioned above.

IIRC someone many years ago, had the same worries. He hoped for 1000yrs of sanity.
Did not pan out, as it happens - too many people prefer inclusivness. Sad tho it may be, the plebs generally rule.

What happened to the dancing bear? Became used to it.



This is my major issue with democracy. I think it's fantastic for certain communities, namely those of fewer than 200 individuals of approximately equal intelligence. It doesn't work with even 300 people, because at that point the community factionalizes and nothing gets done because then people can only agree on the basest decisions. I had firsthand experience with this at my university of 350 people. The basis of the school government was direct democracy, where all the students, faculty, and staff had equal say. It worked well when there were 150 students. When the student population topped 300, the administration had to take the reigns so that something would get done and left the students to argue over by-laws.*

Democracy assumes that the voters are intelligent and will make logical decisions. This clearly is not the case. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's a good one, and contrawise one cannot use the same argument to write off another's ideas because "everybody has their own opinion." People vary in intellectual ability, and those with more ability can comprehend the structure of reality to a finer degree. Stupid people will often have inaccurate opinions, and smarter people tend to have more accurate ones. This is logical, but I constantly encounter the "it's only your opinion" argument when discussing anything of a serious nature. The proles will always out-vote the intelligent in a democracy through force of numbers.

-Tycho-
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And the parts I put in Bold are good examples of why the Founding Fathers of our Great Nation gave us a Republic instead of any other form of government.
Indeed if the majority ruled the great USA we would no doubt be in serious trouble.
Being under the rule of law makes all the difference in the world.

*And that's why when the administration took over that things changed and ran smoother. What was a Democracy became a Republic and under rule by law.

What disturbs me most of all is that we're liable to lose our Republic if we're not very careful.:(
 
I don't know why the Old Man and I should connect on certain protruding boulders in the stream I must cross in Life, but Yvsa and I do. He is absolutely, precisely, correct. This is a constitutional Republic, not a democracy. A Constitutional Republic is a democratic form of government, but these distinctions have meaning.


munk
 
tychoseven said:
and get rid of all those warning labels on obviously dangerous things, like the "do not put head in woodchipper" signs.
-Tycho-
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we've all of course heard the one about the two proles upon seeing one of these warning labels, one turns to the other and says "c'mon, nobody's looking".:D

• • • • • •

what more is reality than a collective hunch?
 
Tycho--- I did not intend my medication comments as an insult. I don't want your voice silenced, and please don't give up. I wasn't refering to opiates, but maybe some helpful meds that would help you with your brain chemistry. Many people suffer from depression, and don't get help because they just see other people as the problem rather than themselves.

Your perspective is certainly flawed. That is your right as an American. However, there are many American's here in this forum that feel like you do about nature, and peaceful moments on mountaintops, and lovely interesting women who don't paint themselves up like a mummy and try to fit into a mold. Read some of Steely's comments about his wife, and many others too. These people don't have this horrible disdain for our country and its culture that you do, and they are happy people. Be patient and try to reach that calm place you spoke of. Interact with your fellow Americans and involve yourself in our culture, and you will find happiness and still be able to find your peaceful moments more and more often. When you do you will find a partner to share this with. If you don't you will remain as miserable as you sound here in this thread.

Merry Christmas and God Bless!!!
 
and I don't see any steps being taken to reduce that number to something reasonable (under 1 billion).
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You don't?

Ironically, people who identify themselves with their beliefs and egos and are unable to see their fellow man as themselves are waging war on each other almost constantly. A population control to be sure.:(

Everyone is in favor of population control until they imagine their loved ones as the ones being "controlled"
 
Tyke...I do agree with you on the idiot warnings. The illegal immigrant I hit said he was going to sue the county for not having a sign "Bridge may ice in cold weather." Bastard.
 
aproy1101 said:
Tycho--- I did not intend my medication comments as an insult. I don't want your voice silenced, and please don't give up. I wasn't refering to opiates, but maybe some helpful meds that would help you with your brain chemistry. Many people suffer from depression, and don't get help because they just see other people as the problem rather than themselves.

Your perspective is certainly flawed. That is your right as an American. However, there are many American's here in this forum that feel like you do about nature, and peaceful moments on mountaintops, and lovely interesting women who don't paint themselves up like a mummy and try to fit into a mold. Read some of Steely's comments about his wife, and many others too. These people don't have this horrible disdain for our country and its culture that you do, and they are happy people. Be patient and try to reach that calm place you spoke of. Interact with your fellow Americans and involve yourself in our culture, and you will find happiness and still be able to find your peaceful moments more and more often. When you do you will find a partner to share this with. If you don't you will remain as miserable as you sound here in this thread.

Merry Christmas and God Bless!!!
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Apoy1101, I did not take your medication comment as an insult. No worries! That's just my personal view on medication for behavior modification. I've taken anti-depressants before, and I would rather be naturally unhappy than artificially balanced. It's not a pleasant existence, when you know you're still upset but you can't feel anything. No doubt medication works for some people, but I question the wisdom of perpetuating the existence of unstable people. Keep in mind I believe the source of much mental distress is caused by our social structure itself, and if it were more harmonious with the needs of humanity most people would not require medication or counseling, and those that were truly unhinged would be easy to identify and remove. Drugs cannot cure cognitive dissonance between natural behavior and the social norm, only obscure it.

I find it difficult to articulate the precise reasons I dislike our society. I realize I have done a poor job explaing myself and as a result some of you have taken that to mean that I hate the US, or something to that end. What I'm talking about is not limited by political boundaries; it is present in the majority of the world's cultures. Essentially it is the belief that the individual is sacred and what is good for one's self-interest is good for all. Admittedly, the situation is more complicated, but my understanding is far from complete and this is the thrust of the issue. Much of my distress is intuitive, and requires work to describe, but symptoms are obvious and structure can be inferred from them. I look at social norms and accepted behavior and find they are at odds with a rational basis for a society. It would be insane to clear-cut the forest one depends upon for sustainence, but the destruction of our ecosystem continues in the name of progress and the economy.

Here in San Jose, some of the best farmland in the country is under concrete. Fourty years ago, this valley was an orchard from end to end. Now the wealthy move into the mountains to escape the smoggy, populous valley. Every year more lights illumine the hillside, and it will not be long before the mountains become another suburb themselves. Pre-christian European cultures understood the balance between man and his environment and respected the land, which all humans depend upon. Contrast this to our current perspective, where rivers in China are so polluted they cause cancer in villages downstream, or in Brazil where the rainforest is being clear-cut in favor of grazing land for cheap beef exports. There are thousands of examples, and I know you all can think of a few. Just take a stroll through an urban or suburban neighborhood on trash day, and look at the waste that's created by only a few hundred people in only one week. No sane society would tolerate this disrespect, let alone encourage this behavior.

There was a thread recently about the new Xbox. Consumer goods are a fantastic example of the way we're all played like suckers to keep the wheels of the economy turning. Isn't it obvious that new platforms are released on a periodic basis, and that there usually isn't anything wrong with the old platform? Some of the best games made were on the SNES, and they're still popular because they were challenging, interesting games that didn't rely on new new eye candy engines to sell a product? Anybody who's played some of Bungie's earlier titles like Pathways into Darkness or the Marathon trilogy will tell you that Halo was a weak effort. It looked pretty, but the gameplay and story were linear and unimaginative. But I digress; my point is that all those old game systems are now filling up some hole in the ground, and that's exactly where the Xbox and its replacement are headed, along with 90% of your worldly possesions. How long can we expect to transform natural "resources" into trash piles before TSHTF?

The idiots that afflict us daily, the lack of political and social consensus, and the days upon days spent inside under artificial lights are all disadvantages of a fundamental flaw in our priorities and values. Perhaps some of you can recognize this. I get the sense that most of you do not, or simply do not wish to validate your intuition which screams to you to follow a noble path instead of bowing and scraping to the gods of money and popularity, as we all must do. Perhaps some understand, but we employ such radically different language that we appear to be at odds. I realize I am doing a poor job of explaining myself, but when others write of structural errors and of better ways I know why; they have no need to explain themselves to me. We are kindred spirits in despair and hope, because the hollowness of everyday existence in a superficial world is transparent to us. Much of our culture is entertainment: passive and distracting, and when we socialize, we talk of entertainment or of material possessions, and rarely of ideas. We attempt to change the internal through external associations and adornments when the internal is the source of all love and true action; through discipline and strength we forge our external form in the likeness of our spirits.

No doubt my words will not be recieved kindly, and I do not say them for the benefit of others. I hope only to explain myself to those who will listen. Think not that I put myself above others, for I know my place on the IQ bell curve and I have respect for those with finer perceptions than I. I am distressed by the fate that awaits me if I submit to the cloying allure of distractions and simple answers offered by society, but I would rather cultivate beauty and live briefly than die slowly and safely without ever truly living.

MauiRob said:
Ironically, people who identify themselves with their beliefs and egos and are unable to see their fellow man as themselves are waging war on each other almost constantly. A population control to be sure.

Everyone is in favor of population control until they imagine their loved ones as the ones being "controlled"
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On the basic level of existence, we are all equal in that we are homo sapiens sapiens, and we all desire love and peace and a meaningful life, usually shared with others. We are all conscious entities inhabiting physical containers in a material universe we barely comprehend. I see your appeal to clemency on an individual level irrelevent, because life is a cheap commodity in nature. All things that live must die, and it would be more productive to utilize death to further the species, as opposed to death that is meaningless and improves nothing. Is it cruel and inhumane to slaughter millions or billions of people? I would not deny that such an act would be awful, deplorable, or whatever words you chose to condemn such an act. Would that carnage be worse than condemning the entire species to death due to ecological collapse created by our greed? I don't wish to die, nor do I wish those I love to die. I would fight to save them to the last, though my limbs were severed and my heart cut out. That is my nature, as it is of us all. However we are hard-wired in our reptile brains, we can concieve of the structure of the universe, the rules by which our reality operates. We can ignore these rules and live as cancer, consuming until we have eaten everthing but ourselves, or we can chose to live in harmony with what is beyond our control (i.e. death) and perhaps one day comprehend the whole of existence.

-Tycho-
 
Here's a couple more good ones that kind of show how tax policy has favored the wealthy, esp in the past 25 years:

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If it please the Court, I rise to place an objection, My Lords.

My learned friend's proferred evidence is not relevant to the proposition advanced (vis, tax policy favors the rich). If it proves anything, it merely proves income results. That is, the "poor" make less money than the "rich," a proposition that is inherent in the division of society into economic classes by relative wealth. The proferred evidence does not explain why that is so.

Particular objection to the item on the "mimum wage." The real value of the "minimum wage" does not relate in any way to "tax policy" but to the effort of the Government to force payment for services above market level.

Where, My Lords, is the evidence that "the rich," as a class, pay a lower % of their income than the "poor"? To the contrary, I ask judicial notice that the "poor" in fact receive payments FROM the tax authorities, paying no taxes themselves, whereas the "rich" pay a disproportionate % of total national tax revenue.
 
Thomas Linton said:
If it please the Court, I rise to place an objection, My Lords.

My learned friend's proferred evidence is not relevant to the proposition advanced (vis, tax policy favors the rich). If it proves anything, it merely proves income results. That is, the "poor" make less money than the "rich," a proposition that is inherent in the division of society into economic classes by relative wealth. The proferred evidence does not explain why that is so.

Particular objection to the item on the "mimum wage." The real value of the "minimum wage" does not relate in any way to "tax policy" but to the effort of the Government to force payment for services above market level.

Where, My Lords, is the evidence that "the rich," as a class, pay a lower % of their income than the "poor"? To the contrary, I ask judicial notice that the "poor" in fact receive payments FROM the tax authorities, paying no taxes themselves, whereas the "rich" pay a disproportionate % of total national tax revenue.
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Actually my point is not that the poor pay more taxes than the rich. My point is that over time the people actually doing the work are getting less. That we are returning to the Gilded Age.

If the poor and middle class earned a greater % age of the GNP there would be no need for special giveaways to supplement their income.

I think our current policies will eventually lead to one or 2 things: Either to a return to the reforms passed that moved us past the last gilded age and raised all boats, or to a destruction of our democracy because it is no longer benefitting the majority.

Also what is the purpose of our country? Is it to have the most healthy, the most prosperous and well educated populace? Or is it to make the most money for the least people and if they don't like it move or starve? If we extend the latter why not allow the most well armed to legally rob people?

Already we are falling behind in education, health care, life expectancy, infant mortality, and of course morality. I'm just interested to see if our democracy will survive in the long run if average folks begin to compare
 
Your point is taken. Solutions? What -- specifically -- do you want the Government(s) to do?

I always pumped for better education, thinking that giving young people skills that they could sell would help. I thought MAYBE if we spent more $$ for better teachers and for selling the value of education to the clueless, things might improve. Now -- I have no idea. Even the white-collar jobs -- computer programming for example -- are going overseas.

Service work? Service work isn't worth much at the "worker bee" level (unless it's REALLY unpleasant), and efforts to artificially raise the price of labor have, like price controls, historically failed. The border has leaked to the extent of 8,000,000 illegal aliens, who work at whatever they can get. Raise the MW to a real "living wage, and there will be more -- more illegals and more machines replacing people. It's like trying to get water to run uphill.

Manufacturing? Chinese workers get $.75/hr. at the high end. Mexico can't compete. They are losing 100,000's of jobs a year to Asia 'cause they pay $3.00/hr. We used to be a nation with cheap raw materials, but cheap iron ore and cheap coal are not the thing these days. The cheap oil, gas, and copper ran out decades ago. Technology edge? We had it -- once. Now any new tech is around the world before we really know how to get maximum use out of it. The first and second-largest nations had government-run "planned" economies once -- communist or socialist. That edge has also gone away. Now, it's head to head.

Cleveland tried "soak the rich" a century or so ago with a city income tax that was aggressively applied. We were a good "progressive" city. Standard Oil left. U.S. Steel left. The car-making industry left. They can still leave -- the U.S.

Twenty years ago, the "Boss" sang that the jobs were gone and weren't ever comin' back. (Before he found the need to blame it on Bush II). What do we do?
 
Thomas Linton said:
What do we do?
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Good question!

If you look at the countries who use a lot of the money they take from the top to help the bottom, and who make sure the lower wages are a living wage it seems to me that people are better off in the ways of education, health, and a place to live, but worse off as far as inflation and the ability to buy cheap stuff.

In the long run I think the only solution is to work for global population control to limit the supply of humans and increase their individual value. However like for instance in the US that means that the population will be older and the younger ones will have to support them.

I figure eventually we will reach some sort of global equalization point but at that point most likely we will all be even worse off than now:thumbdn:

In the short run I think some effort should be made to get rid of the deficit and pay off the national debt, even if we have to raise taxes.

Also we should invest in some free mandatory health screening and free medicine for hypertension, diabetes, and smoking cessation. While this would cost up front some it would save medicare and medicaid a lot of money treating complications due to these problems. Also free smoking cessation classes and free smoking cessation meds. Also a nationwide campaign to increase exercise to combat obesity. If we could reduce the impact of these problems we could save the system a lot of money. We should also make having insurance mandatory. There are a lot of people who can afford it but choose not to buy it. Then when they get sick the loss hospitals experience from treating them is added to insurance premiums and contributes to health care inflation.

Then we should figure the average amount that we spent in the previous 20 years paying interest on the national debt. Once it is paid off we should give half the money back in tax cuts and then use half to either fund medicare or SS.

That's my 10 point plan
 
tychoseven said:
No doubt medication works for some people, but I question the wisdom of perpetuating the existence of unstable people. Keep in mind I believe the source of much mental distress is caused by our social structure itself, and if it were more harmonious with the needs of humanity most people would not require medication or counseling, and those that were truly unhinged would be easy to identify and remove. Drugs cannot cure cognitive dissonance between natural behavior and the social norm, only obscure it.
-Tycho-
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Before the first non-aryans were destroyed the Nazis used film to try to convince the general population that the sick of mind should be exterminated for their own good. This smacks of the same ideal.

tychoseven said:
It would be insane to clear-cut the forest one depends upon for sustainence, but the destruction of our ecosystem continues in the name of progress and the economy. -Tycho-
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It would be insane to continue to overpoulate but here we jolly well are, aren't we?

tychoseven said:
There was a thread recently about the new Xbox. snip
-Tycho-
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I find it easy to avoid the hype that surrounds every form of entertainment since I set priorities for myself. Such as going long on the game companys stock, the film studio stock. and other junk that everyone has to have the latest of and then serving really great cheese's at partys. You can also participate or choose not to. -Tycho-[/QUOTE]

snip, snip, snip

Basically I need to know if you can get the shit you're smoking safely across country cause I need some for chronic pain and spasticity. seriously. Let me know Tycho.

btw: chronic use of this certain smokable does cause depression. But I have my pills for that.
 
I'm pleased somebody responded to my last post. Took me a while to write and I was beginning to think nobody had read it!

fredricktoo said:
Before the first non-aryans were destroyed the Nazis used film to try to convince the general population that the sick of mind should be exterminated for their own good. This smacks of the same ideal.
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A year ago this argument would have worked on me. However, associating ideas with unpopular movements (Nazis) has no bearing on the ideas themselves. Sure, the Nazis did this. That does not make it a bad idea. There are mentally ill people who are still functional and actually quite brilliant, but not all of them are. The converse is also true: many "sane" people are largely useless and couldn't survive a night alone in the woods. My argument is not to imply we should kill people because they are insane or retarded or prefer peanut butter to almond butter, but rather because their motivition is destructively selfish. In a tribe or small community, one can easily distinguish what is healthy from what is not. What healthy people would allow a member of their community to clear-cut their ancestral forest home in exchange for wealth and power? In our society, cutting down a forest is condoned and even encouraged because it creates jobs and increases the company's stock holdings. It's good for the economy, and makes us all richer, right?

It would be insane to continue to overpoulate but here we jolly well are, aren't we?
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Indeed. Now we have a choice, namely to continue our consumer ecocide and unchecked spawning, or reduce our population and the burden we place on the planet which we cannot live without. Both options require that many people die, but one is sustainable and one is not. We haven't chosen the sustainable option, and each day we continue only makes the consequences more severe. Here's an excellent analogy which demonstrates the impact of exponential growth. http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/pop/bacteria/index.php

I find it easy to avoid the hype that surrounds every form of entertainment since I set priorities for myself. Such as going long on the game companys stock, the film studio stock. and other junk that everyone has to have the latest of and then serving really great cheese's at partys. You can also participate or choose not to. -Tycho-

snip, snip, snip
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That's what I'm all about. Find what matters, and don't bother with the junk everybody tells you is important (TV, movies, clebrity gossip, politics, social mores, etc.) This lets you observe more accurately and it's a great way to save money. We're all so distracted it's tough to keep one's head on straight, and withdrawing from pointless media exposure is simple and lets one enjoy great cheese instead of thinking the canned stuff is just as good. Besides, the library is free and the a staggering amount of subversive material can be found there.

Basically I need to know if you can get the shit you're smoking safely across country cause I need some for chronic pain and spasticity. seriously. Let me know Tycho.

btw: chronic use of this certain smokable does cause depression. But I have my pills for that.
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Luckily I live in a state with a liberal prescription policy concerning a certain smokable, though I only indulge in its delights a few times each year. If you're ever out this way, I'll be glad to hook you up with some quality medicine. Sending it across country would be a federal crime and I don't much like the prospect of federal prison. If the threat of force were absent, the package would be in the mail. Maybe you can find a local source or grow your own?

-Tycho-
 
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