American Indian Religion

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Dave K

Joined
Jul 5, 1999
Messages
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Hey y'all, I'm looking to write a little paper for one of my Religious Studies classes and I was wondering if any of our resident experts (Yvsa, Rusty, etc.) would be able to share some of their knowledge with me.

I'm specifically trying to focus on "New Age" appropriation of Indian traditions and my prof has directed me to two books written by a lawyer named Ed McGaa. The big issue in his books and in the topic in general is whether or not it is OK for non-Indians to practice traditionl Indian religion.

While I am hoping (in this little paper) to be respectful to both Indians who say "no" and to "New Agers"--both Indian and non-Indian--who say "yes", academic snottiness may be reserved for infuriated evangelical types and condescending "scholars".
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So has anyone else heard of Ed McGaa and/or know anything about him that I don't? Would any of our resident experts be willing to share some of their opinions on the forum or via e-mail?

(as if you guys ever hold back... hah hah hah)

With thanks in advance, the eager anticipation of yet another of our lively discussions, and the hope of maintaining the friendly and respectful tone that Uncle Bill tries to set for his forum, I remain

Y'all's humble servant,

Dave

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"PRO LIBERTATE"
 
As a matter of fact, I was up at the county library this morning looking up holdings in the state's library system by Black Elk. Of a dozen listings, seemed that 2/3rds were "Black Elk Speaks", one oral holding, and a few "Black Elk Speaks Again". ( I haven't told the Cal/Nev/Ha district of the Missouri Synod that one of their congregation presidents is flirting with heresy ). The library for Mineral County, within which started the Ghost Dance out of Schurz that ended at Wounded Knee, had nothing on hand.

To start with, and (Yvsa can correct me when I tell you something I know that ain't so) in the northern Nevada/south Idaho area, we had four groups:

Washoe along the the California/Nevada border of the sierra.

Northern Paiute from ( I think ) almost Vegas north in the center of the state.

Shoshone intermingled in the center of the state, and along the eastern border with Utah.

Bannock - per the person who tried to teach me Paiute, they got really P.O.ed and left the state moving to around Fort Hall, Idaho.
They were not missed as they were the "bad boys".

( Of course this same person was openly bigoted and loathed Navahos, probably due to the experiences she had as one of the last of the "lost generation" having been sent to Stewart Indian School near Carson City. If my aunt or her kids are online she could tell you more about the school, having taught there. )

There were three basic religious practices common to all three tribes. All were, AND CONTINUE TO BE, mystical.

The sweat lodges.

The peyote eaters ( sometimes? always? ) in conjuntion with a sweat.

The dances - Paiute Round and Shoshone Bear dances. These seem to now be universal coast to coast. Pow-Wows incorporate them with many regional styles. I don't know where you are, but GO TO A POW WOW! Last one I went to, the leaders told the whiteman about mid-afternoon that they'd been taping and taking pictures of the people and dances all afternoon, so it was the turn of the indians to sit out the next round and laugh at the white guys. (I begged off, of course - it was only 3PM and - as I explained to the rest of the Walker Lake contingent attending the Reno-Sparks Colony
Pow-Wow, the Tribal Chairman had make it that clear that my XXX belonged to the Tribe until 5PM).

Dave, get and read William James "Varieties of Religious Experience" section on mysticism. Check out non-fiction holdings by Andrew M. Greeley, a Ph.D Sociologist, Priest, and Author on the subject. He does,did, work with the National Opinion Research Center. His fictional "Patience of a Saint" has an afterward that would help you locate more on that thing ( mysticism ) on the net.

His webpage is:

http://agreeley.com/

Be warned that his fiction is hypnotic, and like a needle, gets under your skin. Underneath a fun read is a morality play, absorbed with each book, until you find yourself sounding the charge and acting without thinking in the same way his characters do.

If you can locate "The Essential Mystics" by Andrew Harvey ISBN 0-06-251379-6 read chapter one, First Voices.

Michael Hittman has written two books I know of interest to you, one "Wovoka and the Ghost Dance" which tells how the Ghost Dances of 1870 and 1890 came out of the Walker River Paiute Tribe reservation in Schurz where I worked for 5 years, and the other, "Corbett Mack" about the stolen children and drugs. My wife's physical therapist turned me on to this one. Kind of embarassing to her that her grandfather had been the biggest pusher on their res in his day.

It seems to me that you need to understand mystcism, to understand why those steeped in the practice of mystical tradition aren't exclusivist.

I'll look up more and email it to you.

Found the Hittman books. "Wovoka and the Ghost Dance" is ISBN 0-913205-14-1. Corbett Macl is ISBN 0-8032-7290-1. The Yerington Paiute Tribe has it more together in written texts and language teachings than Walker River.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01-21-2000).]
 
Lots to get going on there, Rusty...
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And thank you.

I have looked through James' "varieties of religious experiences" before.

I, too, have a copy of "Black Elk Speaks". It is listed in the bibligraphy of just about every New Age book I have ever looked at, though my prof informs me that Black Elk himself had already converted to Christianity (which seems like it would be an interesting story in and of itself) by the time that the interviews took place, even though Neihardt seems to make little mention of it.

I definitely need to get going on my reading here!

-Dave

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"PRO LIBERTATE"
 
Reminds me of Greeley's definition of an honest Bishop:

"He would never lie except for the good of the church."

I'm not Catholic so I can't comment on the above except to note he could have been talking about the Lutheran Bishops with whom I've had the exquisite educational experience of dealing...
 
I've read most of the books mentioned above but long ago. I delved into the Sun Dance a little when I was spending time on the Rosebud reservation with my pal, George Horse Looking.

The Dali Lama commented on the American Indian religion as being much the same as his and further stated he felt the Tibetans and American Indians were "blood brothers."

Sounds like an interesting assignment, Dave. I hope you keep us posted with your progress.

What has this to do with khukuris? Everything.

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Uncle Bill
Himalayan Imports Website
Khukuri FAQ

 
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I can do a bit better than our Bando friends, but not by much.
Things Sacred are not to be spoken of in a public place.
Many people search the internet and find all of these Indin sites that claim to tell of our beliefs. I have found one site on the Sweatlodge that scared me, because it was so close to the truth.

Rusty spoke some good things and they are true as far as I know, because I am not totally familiar with the people in that part of the country.

I can tell you these things though.
There is a big difference in the Native American Church meetings and other Ceremonies.

There are only 3 reasons to go into the Sweatlodge. They are for Healing, purification, and for giving up wrong doings.

There are 4 rounds or doors to the Ceremony.1st. is for Thanksgving,2nd. is for prayers or others,3rd. is prayers for yourself, and 4th. is Thanksgiving.
If a Pipe is used it is brought in between the 3rd. and 4th. rounds.

If it is a Peyote Sweatlodge then Peyote is taken in the Lodge. Much to anyone's surprise who has eaten the Peyote it is not the Super Hallucegenic that most people think it is. It is not habit forming or addictive in any way. It makes some people very sick and nauseous. It tastes horrible to me.
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Peyote meetings are generally held in a tipi and not the Sweatlodge. I Honor thier Way, but it is too Christian for me and I probaly won't go to another meeting unless it is to Honor a friend or relative that asks me. I do have to say that the NAC has helped a whole bunch of Indins stop the alcohol and drug scene that seems so rampant in so many places among our peoples
It also helps with abusive relationships of all kinds!!

The old traditional ways teach responsibility for ones actions. And that a true Warrior seeks peace first and foremost. They put strong emphasis on helping the orphans and elderly and those in need.

They have also helped a lot of people with drug, alcohol and abusive relationships.
The biggest contributor in making these ways work is a strong spiritual leader who is generally an Elder.
They take a strong familial group of people to support one another as it was in the old days.

E-mail headed your way Dave.
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>>>>---¥vsa---->®

If you mix milk of magnesia with vodka and orange juice do you get a phillips screwdriver?

Khukuri FAQ


 
what might be the most noted Indian non-acceptance of others practicing the Old Ways is the "war" that the Lakota declared on the "new agers" about 5-6 year ago. I actually had conflict with one that had reservations about things being done in other tribes and other traditions, like the Cherokee way of storing a pipe! This was odd for me to see.

A good book,although it doesn't specifically address your topic, is James Mooney's Sacred Myths and Formula of the Cherokee. You will notice on the back of the book a picture of a man. He was the one called Swimmer. A famous Cherokee shaman, who was the source of Mooney's book. Although Swimmer's own direct family descendents tell many of the Stories of Creation a little differently, it gives you some good insight on the history and culture of the tribe.
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Very nicely put way of saying I put yet another foot in my mouth, Yvsa. Only surprise was I didn't know I could get three feet in there at once.

What I was taught was according to a teacher born on the McDermitt Paiute Reservation. She spoke of these forms I listed. Also, the Tribal Substance Abuse Counselor ( a Mandan ) who necessarily promoted his clients seeking spiritual help and I shared an officefor a year or so. He was active in setting up Pow Wows and other drug-free spiritual activities. He also danced at Pow Wows. We got to talk a lot.

What was interesting was that he and I had experiences that were identical in process in each point of our encounter with "Something". It was in trying to understand, to make sense of what had happened that our cultures intervened and we differ.

As you pointed out, many sacred things are just not talked of inappropriately. Relating basic general Traditional beliefs and viewpoints is one thing.

Talking to outsiders about specifics was very different, and the Sun Dance, per my friend was something you didn't even talk about when you got so drunk you couldn't find the floor. The Native American church and some other dances the same way, so mention them and you'll hear me go - duh?

Both Yvsa and Quietone obviously know the present situation you're trying to gather info about better than I.

Check out the experiences and changes of those who've had near death experiences and the changes in character, and I think it'll help you understand mystics, and why they tend to focus on weeding their own soul's garden. Tribal people I've known have mostly paid more than lip service to the traditions of tolerance and value of all life. Mostly, as a rule. And not all adherents of mainline Christianity fit the half-joking description of people who'd try to hire a minister to be Christian for them if they could.

But ( like the rest of the human race ) watch out for the others. Quietone and Yvsa can take it from there.

To mis-quote Mark Twain, first God created idiots. That was for practice. Then he created tribal councils and county commissioners. Same thing.

( See what happens when you try to post half asleep? And hit the submit instead of clear field button? )

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01-21-2000).]
 
Thanks to all.

Worked all night on a bibliography and an outline and talked to my prof this morning. Things are going well.

I only got one of hour of sleep last night and am high as a kite on caffeine!

bwa ha ha ha ha!

-Dave
 
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You did okay Rusty. I didn't see where you had your feet in your mouth.

There is a lot of good information that doesn't really reveal anything Sacred. One ReallY Great Book on the Sundance is "My Road to the Sundance" by Manny Twofeathers.
One of the few Indin books I have read that is "real."

There is also an Excellent Peyote book out, but I don't recall it's title. The Native American Church has became a lot less secretive in the last few years. There was a wonderful display of the Instruments used in the NAC Meetings at our Gilcrease Museum last year. It had some pix that definitely wouldn't have been permitted even 5 years ago. It wsn't long after that that we attended our 1st "meeting." It was at the request of one of our Sweatlodge people and we couldn't hardly turn her down. It was for a good cause as Ceremonies are.

A friend of ours brought one of her "friends" from out of state over not long ago and said that xxxx was wanting an Indin Ceremony. I asked her for What and she said she didn't know, just an Indin Ceremony. This woman is an educated Indin and doesn't "know" any better, but she won't be coming back here.
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Like quietone says there are lots of diffeences in the way different tribes do things.
The Lakota like a more western tribe in Oklahoma think they are the experts on all things Indin.
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They can be quite insistent just like the Lakota. I think they're still pissed off because the Lakota and Dakota and Nortern Cheyenne kicked thier butts way back when. Quietone probably knows who I am talking about.
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One thing about it. We may not know one another, but if each sees the other toteing a khkuri we will probably have a good idea who we're about to meet.LMRRAO.
------------------
>>>>---¥vsa---->®

If you mix milk of magnesia with vodka and orange juice do you get a phillips screwdriver?

Khukuri FAQ


[This message has been edited by Yvsa (edited 01-21-2000).]
 
One more item of interest that I recall. Nevada was once part of Utah Territory and settled by Mormons. Mormon Station ( Genoa ) and Dayton argue over who was there first. Since Mormons originally settled it they mostly ran it until the feds threatened to send the army after Brigham Young and he called the "Saints home to Zion. The non-mormons left in Nevada promptly gerrymandered everything so the mormons could not take over again if they came back.

However, the Mormons did mske inroads among the Indians in Nevada? Why?

The Mormons would bury Indians who'd committed suicide.

The Methodists and Presbyterians split the state with the Methodists doing missions at the north end of Walker Lake and up to the state line, and Presbyterians from the south end of the lake to Arizona. Neither would bury suicides.
 
I agree about the Lakota, although I know some that I regard highly too. I wasn't gonna be the one to say it
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Little known history fact- The Cherokee defeated the Lakota about 2000 years ago when the Lakota came to the Southern Appalachias. The Cherokee drove them back out. This isn't in any history books that I know of, it is part of Elo, orally-transmitted history of the tribe. They might still be a little sore over that.
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I did take a khukuri to a Pow Wow several years ago. It was well received. Although it got some funny looks when I managed to stick it in the logs that they were throwing 'hawks in.
 
This is off the top of my head, and I may have misunderstood it since I know little of the Trail of Tears, but from one thing I read, some of the Choctaw leaders knew the move to what's now southeast Oklahoma was coming. They apparently sent an advance party to the area, not entirely to scout things out. Anyway, this same non-Indian source reported that the SE OK area was inhabited by a more primitive indigenous group prior to the trail of tears.

Oddly, there wasn't any mention of them being around after ( or even shortly before ) the main party of Choctaw arrived there. They just didn't live there ( or anywhere else that was ever found ) anymore.

Sounds like it isn't just the white man who has a few skeletons in the closet ( Or people hiding in the woodpile pulling their pants back on ). People do seem to be the same all over ( at least when they think no-one's looking; but then that doesn't apply to fine upstanding people like Uncle Bill and Yvsaa and yours truly - Anyone interested in buying this bridge in Brooklyn? )
 
I have been told more than once by the elders, that not all the people who were around back then were nice, including Indians. Doublehead is one that comes to mind, if my memory is correct. It was regarded as most elders that I know as a black era in history, far from the teachings of the Great Tree of Peace and the teachings of the Pale One, a Cherokee prophet. Most of that history, I am not comfortable discussing publicly.

I can say that things were not always as depicted. In GA, where the Trail of Tear began, skirmishes between Cherokee and Settlers was not always the norm. It was government/politics that created most of the conflict when gold was discovered in Georgia around 1833. Many of the Boat People (whites) lived at peace with the Indian people up until that time. (This,of course, isn't taking into account the Spanish expeditions that occurred in the beginning.)
and yes, perfect peace wasn't the norm either
 
In fairness, I should also add that there is a state law that says it is still legal to kill a Native American in Georgia. (unless this has been changed in recent years)
 
This thread has been very educational.

For instance, I now have learned that I am in no way qualified to write anything at all about Indian religion!
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-Dave

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"PRO LIBERTATE"
 
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