An ABS certification above the current Mastersmith designation?

[Karl B. Andersen]

I seem to recall Bill Moran saying around 2005 that he wouldn't pass the MS test today.

But not because the standards had changed. The standards of fit and finish remain the same.
He wouldn't pass because his abilities and focus had waned.
Because of the advent of available information, sharing of technique and the access to it, applicants these days - and makers in general - are making knives far in advance of 10 years ago.
When you see the knives coming out of the testing room, one would think the 'standards' had changed - but in fact, the standards are just more regularly exceeded.

We'll never see any classification above MS.
Ain't gonna happen.
The only changes that ever take place are made by the board.
Knowing who is on that board, do you really think they're gonna have someone with a HIGHER classification than them?
Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Don Hanson III]

We'll never see any classification above MS.
Ain't gonna happen.
The only changes that ever take place are made by the board.
Knowing who is on that board, do you really think they're gonna have someone with a HIGHER classification than them?
Ain't gonna happen.

^^^ This^^^

I think what we need here is a Grand Marshal .

 

[Kevin Jones]

But not because the standards had changed. The standards of fit and finish remain the same.
He wouldn't pass because his abilities and focus had waned.
Because of the advent of available information, sharing of technique and the access to it, applicants these days - and makers in general - are making knives far in advance of 10 years ago.
When you see the knives coming out of the testing room, one would think the 'standards' had changed - but in fact, the standards are just more regularly exceeded.

We'll never see any classification above MS.
Ain't gonna happen.
The only changes that ever take place are made by the board.
Knowing who is on that board, do you really think they're gonna have someone with a HIGHER classification than them?
Ain't gonna happen.

I agree Karl.
I brought this up via another BF thread about 9 years ago and perhaps (if I'm still around) in another 9 years ago I will bring it up again, however
an elevated title/certification above "MS" will most likely never happen.
A long time MS and I were talking the other day and the subject came up and we both feel it would be good for the ABS, collectors and forged knives in general.

 

[jdm61]

But not because the standards had changed. The standards of fit and finish remain the same.
He wouldn't pass because his abilities and focus had waned.

I am not sure if I totally agree with that. In a past life, I owned 2 Morans, one made in the late 50's or early 60's and one made in the early 2000's which was the auction knife for one of the early All-Forged Blade shows in Reno. Suffice to say that the fit and finish on the newer piece was MUCH better. My understanding is that Mr. Moran meant that the skill level of the membership had gone though the roof and surpassed him, which I suspect was his ultimate goal all along. IMO, his fit and finish reached its zenith in the ST24 era which was a fair bit of time after he got his MS stamp. As for the standards not changing I will cite one possible example where they have. The MS art dagger always require a blade with a minimum of 300 layers? I have heard the rumor that in order to get an MS stamp very early on, all you had to do was be able to forge damascus. Of course, that might have made sense as only 4 or 5 people in the group could do that. With that said, I would be interested to see some art daggers that passed in the early days and compare them with ones that failed later, like say Rade Hawkin's dagger in 2005 or 2006. Like I said, I saw at least one JS knife from the late 90's that a mere 8-9 years later, would not have passed for significant design reasons that are clearly stated in the standards that had been recently instituted, not for fit and finish. That was the general feeling of a number of people who handled the knife and a few, myself included, were rather surprised when we were told AFTER the knife had been passed around that it was part of a successful set up five. The current judging rules date from 2010 and clearly state that symmetry and design are part of the criteria and I don't think those were brand new at that time. But you re right about the advancement of the art form. I remember hearing BR Hughes say a few years back that a lot of the stuff that they were seeing at the Js judging table was MS quality work. Oddly enough, I believe that was around the mid 2000's when we were being guys like Nick Wheeler testing .

 

[jdm61]

In general, doesn't the collectors market really establish who the "Grand Masters" are and who perhaps hasn't been keeping up with their continuing education requirements?

 

[sheathmaker]

This is in regard to post # 35. I forgot to use the reply with quote. As I see it the subject of this thread was/is should the USA MS have an even more elevated designation? Hell, I have no idea, but.............................

Jon, we all pretty well know who you are talking about, and as I perceive it, it was and is an honorary thing bestowed in great appreciation for what he does and did to help advance the local makers there, and also a testament to their admiration of his ability.

It has nothing to do with the ABS USA, and I am very sure it is "fair" according to their rules, which again we (and you) have nothing to do with, or any right of control over.

Based on your logic, I guess the French Legion Of Merit presented to American heroes is also unfair?

Paul

 

[Logan Pearce]

I do agree that there should be another tier in the ABS ranking. I mean what would it hurt? They took their ranking from ancient guilds and those guilds had a grandmaster rating. Plus, it would give some people a new goal.


On one hand, I think re-certification is a great idea. Because how many makers have you seen get to a certain level to pass a test, then the rest of their work drop off after that? I think doing it the way STeven said would be a pretty good way to go about it. That might get confusing though?

However, if the college I graduated from took away my degrees because my work in that field didn't fit their standards, I would be slightly annoyed.

The reason I don't think it should be done, is because I think a lot of the current masters probably wouldn't do it. Simply, because of the time and effort that they had to set aside in order to pass the test. Not to mention the stress of it. Also, you have seen the amount of great makers that continued to raise the bar. Can the masters who passed the test 20 years ago pass it now?


I don't see it happening. They are reluctant to change and we all know that. Besides who would judge them? They would have to designate GMS in order to judge GMS, like they did with MS when they first created that.

Clarify: What country or individual is already considered a 'Grandmaster', please?

Ron Newton was bestowed the honor by the Taiwan Art Council a few years back.

 

[Wulf]

The standards of fit and finish remain the same.

I respectfully disagree with this assertion. I have been told by several judges and at least one board member that the standards have, in fact, changed significantly over time. Or perhaps "evolved" would be a better word. My own observations corroborate this as well. Although the changes are nearly imperceptible from one year to the next, they are plain as day when comparing some of the passing JS and MS knives from, say 20 years ago to today.

The ABS has been around for almost four decades; the world has changed a lot during that time, and the judging panels also change from year to year. It would be almost impossible not to evolve in this kind of environment. But this is not at all a bad thing! To me, and to countless other bladesmiths and collectors, this evolution of the judging standards over time is seen as progress, which is precisely why a JS or MS stamp awarded today is still so relevant!

One of my peeves is that the performance tests have not simultaneously evolved, despite meaningful advancements in both metallurgy and the availability of high tech heat treating technologies. If our standards in the art of bladesmithing can evolve over time, then so can our standards in the science of bladesmithing, which have arguably advanced even more rapidly in recent decades.

We'll never see any classification above MS.
Ain't gonna happen.
The only changes that ever take place are made by the board.
Knowing who is on that board, do you really think they're gonna have someone with a HIGHER classification than them?
Ain't gonna happen.

This, I do agree with. Notwithstanding the current board's reticence and general antagonism towards anything that might upset the status quo, however, discussions like this one are still quite constructive. It may be a purely hypothetical exercise, but certainly not futile. Our future leaders are already here, and many of them are listening.

 

[Jon Brand]

Paul I don't like seeing "grandmastersmith" in knife photographs because I consider it an add on to the term "mastersmith" and no one would know that it has nothing to do with the ABS unless they follow. You seem to never agree with my "logic" but thats ok, to each their own and I love your sheaths. If it said MAKER- Ron Newton MS/GMS that would be ok for me. But just stating "GMS" alone is odd to me and I ask myself... says who? Has nothing to do with Ron or his level of skill. He makes some of the best work I have ever seen but its strange marketing.

 

[jdm61]

To be fair, if a medieval trade guild or some other organization in olden days had a 'grandmaster" title, it was more likely a political one than any indication of greater skill.

 

[J. Hoffman]

To me a Grand Master should be able to show more diverse skills. I agree that cutting tests would be moot because they have already proven they can make a blade that cuts. I think the GM test knives should require 1 of each of the following:

A frame or linerlock folder.
A slipjoint folder
A kitchen knife
An Auto Folder
An Integral.

 

[JParanee]

IMHO

The bar has definitely been raised

I've seen and still own many early MS knives and the stuff these days is a notch up

 

[Wulf]

If there was ever one singular event that propelled the ABS into the "next level" in terms of standards of fit and finish, that event would probably be named Tim Hancock.

Tim Hancock showed the world what an uber-clean high-end forged art knife can look like. He may well have been one of the first true "grand masters" in the modern era of the forged blade. Just look at the influence he's had on so many of the top ABS makers in recent years. Think of the late John White and his legacy dogbones. Think of Ron Newton. Think of Mike Quesenberry, Tommy Gann, Kyle Royer, Jason Knight, Nick Wheeler, and so many others who today are setting the standard for clean finish, tight fit, edge symmetry, and overall balance. All of them will tell you they learned from and aspired to Tim's example in many aspects of their own work. I myself find similar inspiration some 20+ years after Tim attained his MS stamp.

He showed us all how precision tools and a keen eye can help elevate the art of a modern craftsman. Quite honestly I think he could have taught Bill Moran a thing or two. Just as some of the new makers today can teach other more seasoned veterans a thing or two as well.

Here's to Tim Hancock. Here's to progress.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

IMHO

The bar has definitely been raised

I've seen and still own many early MS knives and the stuff these days is a notch up

Re-read my post.
I didn't say the knives today were not better. IN fact, I said, "...are making knives far in advance of 10 years ago."
I said the requirements haven't changed.
And they haven't.
The knives are just to be without flaw.

 

[JParanee]

Re-read my post.
I didn't say the knives today were not better. IN fact, I said, "...are making knives far in advance of 10 years ago."
I said the requirements haven't changed.
And they haven't.
The knives are just to be without flaw.

Got it

Thx Karl

 

[Kohai999]

If there was ever one singular event that propelled the ABS into the "next level" in terms of standards of fit and finish, that event would probably be named Tim Hancock.

Here's to Tim Hancock. Here's to progress.

As with many of the other "events"....I'll salute Tim Hancock and say "well done"!

It has been an absolute pleasure to know Tim over the years....if you have not seen our interview of Tim on Knife TV, I do recommend you do so.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[AVigil]

after the GMS they could then go for Supreme Poobah.

That is where such silliness ends up at.

 

[Logan Pearce]

after the GMS they could then go for Supreme Poobah.

That is where such silliness ends up at.

Zen Master would be next.

But really..

 

[lucas.almeida]

I think there are two "updates" to be made.

Based on the way academia works, there are no "technical" titles above a Phd ( at least generally , with a few specificities here and there).

However, there is the title of Professor , or even better, Professor Emeritus.

Those are given for contributions in the field, outstanding reputation, and a lot of work for the institution.

So I think there could definitely be a Grandmaster title following the "Emeritus" system , and I think the idea of a ballot amongst the JS and MS members would be a good way of starting it.

Also, It would be nice to have some recognition , maybe in a parallel title , for work done on folders and stainless blades. It would make a lot of sense since they are a significant source of growth on the field.

Lots of ways to go, and there is no reason why only one of them should happen. Times change, and institutions should adapt to change.

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

Have one person a year, have the title of GMS.
Come up with a challenge, all ABS MS can enter.
And by vote, the winner is picked.