An Australian in Nepal: The Khukuri Files

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fugglesby

Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
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Hey guys, I'm Andrew lucas, an Australian industrial designer and I'm currently in nepal working with Khukuri House Handicraft Industry on lots of fancy new things, ranging from suggesting new equipment to give the kamis a hand to new processes and new designs. I've been documenting the process with a whole bunch of videos and I think they're pretty interesting so I should maybe share them here. I thought there might be a better place for me to post this but I'm not a maker, nor am I actually speaking on behalf of KHHI. Also I can't really post this is the khukuri section of the forum as it belongs to Himalayan Imports and these aren't HI khukuris. If there's somewhere else that this should be, I'd love for a moderator to move it there.

But on to the knives. So far I've done a lot of stuff. First up was an improved heat treat. The traditional way of heat treating these khukuris involves heating up the blades to red hot and then pouring water onto the edge from a teapot. This means that they can "paint" the hardness on wherever they want, leaving a great differential edge quench. The problem with this though is that the hardness changes along the length of the blade and it's not very consistent. I absolutely adore the teapot quenching, but it's got a lot of issues with it and Saroj (the owner) wanted to have the ability to dial up the performance, quality and reliability. So as of a few weeks ago I started the process of teaching the kamis how to oil quench their khukuris and then give them a proper temper. I've got a few videos that show the process.

[video=youtube;qSpXyJj0DiM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSpXyJj0DiM[/video]

[video=youtube;uaQu7w7fHW8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaQu7w7fHW8[/video]
 
I've also done a lot of testing on these heat treats to make sure they're up to scratch. For those of you who like destruction testing, here's a whole bunch for you.

[video=youtube;hdzNbO73ZFY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdzNbO73ZFY&list=UU_zqAv92_oc84aIMrjEK9Yw[/video]

[video=youtube;CuWUrFfRvJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWUrFfRvJs&list=UU_zqAv92_oc84aIMrjEK9Yw[/video]

[video=youtube;tymgEJuO4rw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymgEJuO4rw&list=UU_zqAv92_oc84aIMrjEK9Yw[/video]

As you can see, the new heat treat is pretty awesome. It's light years ahead of the traditional method in terms of both durability AND hardness and is in every way a step up. The 52100 was very tricky to get right with these backyard methos and is far from the ideal steel to be using for a chopper blade. However, through a mixture of a slightly lower quench temperature and a rather extreme temper, the 52100 is performing really quite well.
 
Apart from that I've also been working with their head leatherworker on some new western sheath designs. A lot of people really hate the traditional wood and leather sheaths and there's fair grounds for that. WHile they are beautiful, they also often have very poor retention, aren't waterproof and can be easily damaged. I set out to come up with a nice simple system that would please most people while still being easy to adapt to different sized and shaped knives. The end result is incredibly secure, has horizontal and vertical carry as well as a dangler. Really happy with it :)

[video=youtube;DerZgOJadLI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DerZgOJadLI&list=UU_zqAv92_oc84aIMrjEK9Yw[/video]

As an extension of that I also worked with Siru (such a great guy), one of the more forward thinking kamis on making some tactical thermoplastic knife sheaths. Due to the lack of kydex in Nepal, the original idea was to use PVC pipe to make some and it actually went pretty well! From there though we decided to try and import some kydex and see what we could do. Once again, really happy with the modular sheath system. The sheath is let down by the rivets and the bolts currently but hopefully that will change in future.

[video=youtube;M9ZZrxY0e_U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9ZZrxY0e_U&list=UU_zqAv92_oc84aIMrjEK9Yw[/video]

So yeah! Overall, an absolutely amazing trip. The kamis are such an incredibly talented group of people and I feel so humbled by them. Having the opportunity to come and work with these people (and then go and get drunk and play pool with afterwards) is something that I'm really grateful for.
I hope you liked the videos, it's really great to see these craftsmen work.
If you've got any questions, I'd be happy to answer any of them :)

Namaste,
Andrew
 
Great job, Fugglesby!

Keep it up and very very nice of you to share your findings with us!

Cheers matey!
 
Thanks guys! It will be quite a while before any prototype knives arrive for me to test, but when they rock up I'll be sure to take a few videos and post them in this thread. I'm not sure if there'd be much interest in it, but I could do a video showing my sketches and the ideas that I hope to refine and push into production?
Take care,
Andrew
 
Here's a little video which you guys might be interested in if you're into khukuris. In this video I do a run down on some of the working knives these guys use over here. The majority of the work these knives do is chopping and carving the khukuri handles roughly into shape and the second knife in this video looks like it's seen a lot more work than most knives. You always see people posting old knives of theirs with recurves from getting sharpened over and over and over again. But this one might just take the cake.

[video=youtube;CHX5uHy90EA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHX5uHy90EA[/video]

In all honesty though, I think there's plenty which are used harder than this. Sure, it's been used every day cutting up wood to make khukuri handles but I know for a fact that it hasn't been used for that long, ten years max. The owner says that this is due to the knife "losing metal" every time it goes into the wood. I attribute the dramatic loss of metal to the fact that they sharpen these things with proper full sized metal files and probably get rid of 10x what they need to every time they sharpen. That and that the metal this far into the middle of the original blade is probably incredibly soft.
If you've got a more heavily used knife, I'd love to see it. Also if you've got any questions, go for it. I'm happy to answer whatever.
 
Awesome videos fugglesby.
I guess we could be seeing "traditional" take a step back over there.
Good on yah, mate!
No doubt modernity creates more opportunity for advancement, and would fit right in with the rest of the world.
Can't say that I would miss seeing those wood & leather sheaths... As it is, I m hoping for Those flimsy dual belt loops secured with stationary file pronged fasteners could immediately be a thing of the past
 
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Thanks for your kind words. Ehhh I wouldn't say, traditional is taking a step back by any means, a good 80% of the stuff they do is still traditional, but once you're in that zone it's kind of hard to move or grow out of it. As you say, including some modern stuff really opens up a lot of new markets and options for diversification. On the kami level, they love learning all these new skills. They're really proper craftsmen and the heat treat particularly has got them very excited because it gives them an opportunity to know that the knives they make are in that way at least probably the best in Nepal. It's a great source of personal pride for them.
Now you've GOT to tell me about these file fasteners. It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about but you mean to say that you got a sheath which was held together with glorified paperclips?! Haha I've gotta say that's pretty funny!
Which house was it from? Do you know the model? I haven't seen anything like that in my time at KHHI so far, the belt loops here are all held on with double cap rivets as far as I know.
 
Sorry, my bad!
That there belt loop or "frog" is called a faras.
manual.gif

figure it was 2003 Brit no1 service pattern.
so, no paper clips any longer?
That's an Outstanding development already.
and it's good to know that it's a thing of the past :-)
Pardon me if I have chosen not to name the house outright.
as the last thing I would want is a company of dissatisfied ex-gurkhas at my doorstep... Ayo gurkhali
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=avKLiLygVBc
 
Haha I don't think you need to worry about that, but I appreciate and respect your decision not to name names. Well, i can't speak for any of the other houses but having spent quite a bit of time with everybody involved in the sheathmaking process, I can guarantee you that KHHI doesn't use any form of stationery in their sheaths lol. just rivets and eyelets and straps and snaps and thread. I can see how these file fasteners could potentially be used in the faras as you mention though, even if terribly. Nepalese ingenuity I suppose! Gotta respect that in a way...:P
 
Nice, I know that you have good intentions and you are willing to help, but from my point of view it's better to leave "traditional" stuff, traditional :)
 
And a very valid opinion that is :)
If you're looking for unflinching traditionalism in your khukuri, there's always HI, I suppose.
Cheers,

Andrew
 
Dear Karda,
Thanks for leaving that message. I assume you deleted it, as it isn't here now, but there was of course a copy of the message content sent to me along with the notification email. Deleting it was the right thing to do, as I'm sure the members of this forum would expect better behaviour than that from one of their moderators. Next time you feel the need to jump into a thread and start flaming, I hope you make the right decision and don't post a message in the first place.
Take care,
Andrew
 
fugglesby said:
Dear Karda,
Thanks for leaving that message. I assume you deleted it, as it isn't here now, but there was of course a copy of the message content sent to me along with the notification email. Deleting it was the right thing to do, as I'm sure the members of this forum would expect better behaviour than that from one of their moderators. Next time you feel the need to jump into a thread and start flaming, I hope you make the right decision and don't post a message in the first place.
Take care,
Andrew
Click to expand...

Andrew,

Thanks, but I didn't flame you at all.
the content of my post was pretty much as follows;
Something you should consider...
Once you start modernizing the kamis procedures and demeanor the traditions and history are lost along with the heritage.
So much for preserving the dying art of khukuri making. Sometimes profitability isn't always the best path.
Click to expand...

This may be a bit of a game to you as a young designer trying to make a name for yourself, I can assure you that to these kamis...it is their lifes blood, their pride and just about the only way the can make a living to feed their families in that poor part of the world. It is not a game to them and every action you and your mentor take directly affects them. I deleted my post out of respect for your thread and to them.
On other forums you complain about EGKH stealing your designs, but fail to realize KHHI's own, at present it has several notable HI known designs advertised on its website. You complain that they copy others designs also, such as Busse, when your own scourge design handles a pretty much a copy of that companys handle design.You would do well to beware, as that handle design is trademarked along with the talon hole and is something they take seriously in litigating.
 
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IMHO, changing the quench method from pouring a tea pot of water over the edge to dipping the edge in a small trough of oil is less loss of tradition/less change than using power grinders and sanders, which seem to be used by all manufacturers. If an oil quench improves performance, then it's worth it. Heat treat inconsistency is the biggest issue with Nepali made khuks in my experience and it's a shame to see a beautifully crafted khukuri chip out or roll and wave. I think this new method needs more testing to be sure, but it looks like a promising alternative.
 
Wow alright.
Firstly, for the sake of accuracy, your message was:
"Something to think about....
Once you start modernizing kami practices and nature, legacy and traditionalism is lost along with the heritage. You might as well just start forgoing the forging process and teach them stock removal, or even just start stamping the blades out by machine.

So much for keeping the dying art of Nepalese khukuri making alive."
This is clearly designed to upset me and it worked. You're trying to start an argument here and there's no need for that.
I feel like I should just ignore you, but at the same time I feel compelled to respond. I won't go into depth, but I will lay down a few things:

1: I appreciate and respect your opinion, as I do those who shared the same opinion previously.

2: I understand how important the traditional processes are to kamis, especially bishwakamis for whom the skills and processes have been repeated over the generations. If you feel there needs to be some sort of proof that I'm a friend of kamis, I can upload videos of me playing pool with them, getting drunk with them or being invited to their houses to meet their families. Their situation and the situation of many in Nepal is something I am very familiar and sympathetic to. I will not presume that you do not also have a similar connection, but I should urge that you do not speak on behalf of these specific kamis who I count amongst my friends.

3: As I have mentioned repeatedly in our past discussions karda, I am happy to discuss any and all things related to these allegedly copied designs whenever you'd like, granted I'd prefer it be in a specific topic devoted to it. In a past interaction between you and I, you stated that this was also what you'd prefer "I will prefer to let you designers and Mr. Lama go about your business until there is plenty of irrefutable evidence (there is irrefutable evidence of this act already)...and then we will have a discussion." But here you are, once again bringing up the topic. I'm beginning to think that you don't want a resolution to come at all as that would leave you with one less thing to use to start arguments with. I'll repeat what I said in earlier threads. I hate IP theft and won't stand for it. I'd love some clarification and resolution on this issue.

4: The busse accusation is both ridiculous and hurtful. If you think it's something Jerry Busse should know about, then feel free to send a message to his account on bladeforums and if it's not okay by him then once again, I'm more than happy to enter into a discussion with him.

Alrighty, so that's that. In our last discussion, I offered to leave the thread if you asked me to ad a gesture of respect to the thread. I'm not going to suggest you do the same, however I will ask that you respect this thread by leaving out anything particularly incendiary or malicious in your further contributions.
Hopefully this thread can get back on track after this little excursion. There seems to be a positive response from the majority of forum members commenting and I have plenty more content to share.
Take care,
Andrew
 
jdk1 said:
IMHO, changing the quench method from pouring a tea pot of water over the edge to dipping the edge in a small trough of oil is less loss of tradition/less change than using power grinders and sanders, which seem to be used by all manufacturers. If an oil quench improves performance, then it's worth it. Heat treat inconsistency is the biggest issue with Nepali made khuks in my experience and it's a shame to see a beautifully crafted khukuri chip out or roll and wave. I think this new method needs more testing to be sure, but it looks like a promising alternative.
Click to expand...

Before there were powered grinders there were manual grinding wheels and files, so that change isn't all that dramatic.
It isn't just the quench he's changing, its the steel also. Changing the production parameters from the time honored and passed down regimen that these kamis use makes them a modern rendition that is less authentic or traditional and can be bought all over this forum by people who know what they are doing with it, instead of fugglsby who thinks that traditional khukuri are tempered by the grinding process. If you look at these videos closely, he really knows very little of either modern or traditional knifemaking, yet he is in Nepal coaching men, with his suppositions, who've had an art passed down to them by the generations. As you can see by the chipping rolling and breakage in his videos here, the oil quench and steel change really isn't any real improvement over the time honored traditions. Might as well just start doing stock removal or stamping the khukuris out by machine. I do have a concern though, how much does one think these new imported supplies are going to cost in the long run and where is the used up oil going to go?
 
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If the Khukuris are designed by people from the same country, doing the same things, then it's no surprise to get some slight similarities in design from just that. There's also the fact that they both specialize in making khukuris, and feedback from customers and experience are likely to lead to similar designs as well. Similar or identical design traits aren't necessarily stolen, or intentionally copied from another designer -- sometimes, especially when it's in the field of making a single type of knife design, I'd expect to see a lot of similar designs.

Also, the fact that someone can trademark a hole in a knife is ludicrous. Spyderhole is one thing, a hole that is placed in a logical position for a lanyard like the Talonhole is another. Obviously, neither should be eligible for any type of ownership or monopoly.
 
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