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An Australian in Nepal: The Khukuri Files
- Thread starter fugglesby
- Start date
If you or Fugglesby for that matter didn't want my input into this thread, then why in gods sake mention me or Himalayan imports at all?
Instead of calling me out here, he could've contacted me for discussion/explanation.
I was perfectly fine deleting my post shortly after and leaving the thread alone until fugglesby decided to drag me back into it with his own mudslinging.
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- Joined
- Nov 29, 2000
- Messages
- 1,926
Well, I totally disagree, both with trentu and Big Mike.
What’s more, I agree with Karda.
There is no need for the OP to act as a wrongfully accused victim.
There is no need for other forum members to get overly emotional over a disagreement.
I am sorry, but I somehow missed the part where "the poor guy was slammed with some hate" by “loyalists of their favorite makers”, or by anyone else for that matter.
Let’s return to the discussion of the khukuries, let’s talk about the merits or shortcomings of the designs and production procedures as we see them.
Yes, the discussion will be unavoidably subjective, but it doesn’t need to be heated and overly personal.
P.S.: Fugglesby, those khukuries are nice.
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- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 1,487
I will let the pics of the Khurks speak for themselves. Will continued to be stunned that no one has mentioned the spam aspect of the OPs post and leave it at that. What I do want to say is after years of being on this forum and having spent a great deal of time on the HI forum, having handled khurks form all the major players. I wish you luck dropping all these changes on the Kamis and not having it blow up on you. It may be fine with you there watching every move they make but seeing how kamis take change over the past 10 years in the how and why they do something....good luck.
Oh myyyyy.
Look karda, I want to clear this whole thing up as I've mentioned many times before and I'm totally open to that. If anything has happened which is immoral then I want it to stop. What you're doing isn't clearing things up, this is mud slinging. Accusing me of stealing designs from Busse out of nowhere is mud slinging. Posting accusations left right and centre and then refusing to answer questions about them is mud slinging. Can you answer the question that both Rostislav and I asked? Can you provide us with a link to any of the product pages for these or the original threads which you got them from? Like I said, i haven't seen them before and if they are just one off pieces then that's pretty important information.
I did no mud slinging at all. I mentioned HI in a positive light. I said if you wanted a super authentic and traditional khukuri then go to himalayan imports. That's me supporting your brand, which as I've mentioned before I have great respect for. Then you come in trying to tell me that I'm eradicating the livelihood of kamis and the culture of Nepal. You deleted your comment, which was the right thing to do and I acknowledge that you made the right decision and hope you don't do it again. Then you do it again and bring in all this copied designs stuff to try and smear everything in the thread previously. Now you accuse me of slinging mud at HI in other forums, but I can guarantee that's something I've never done. I know it's difficult, what with the not being allowed to link to other forums, but as I said I greatly respect HI. KHHI and HI are very different businesses, going after different markets and I totally respect and accept that.
You say that KHHI is pursuing legal action against EGKH? This is totally untrue. Sure, they're unhappy about it but there's nothing they can do about it. KHHI doesn't have a design patent out on any of their designs and as a result have no basis for legal action. They might have thought about it, but they definitely have not pursued legal action.
Karda, you say that you know what improves performance of these knives "but it's a trade secret". Come on. In these videos I've been incredibly transparent and as you've pointed out I've even shown test knives breaking under abuse. But you say that you know the key to ultimate khukuri performance and that it's some sort of secret. I can only guess as to what it might be, such as blessing the knives or rubbing them on magic stones as HI have been known to do in the past. While these are beautiful, absolutely gorgeous processes, which I admire and respect greatly, it's my personal belief that they're of little functional benefit. The heat treat detailed here is performed widely across the entire world and has been proven to be excellent over decades. It's pretty basic stuff. I really don't want to take this to a HI vs KHHI place, but I can explain from a scientific perspective why this new heat treat leads to better performance or if that is deemed too theoretical, once these test knives arrive I can send them on a pass around for user testing and feedback.
Thankyou for all the other comments over here, those who are supportive and those that aren't. I'm sorry that I can't respond to each individually, but the thread is moving very rapidly indeed. If there's any point you'd really like touched on, then please bring them up again and I'll do my best. I'm just a little overwhelmed here. Rostislav, KHHI uses 5160 on traditional blades and EN-31 on various modern blades. I've touched on this at other times but in essence, I would prefer to use 5160 due to the ease of HT and higher toughness, though for supply reasons Saroj elects to use indian EN-31 which he buys direct from a steel mill in some cases, especially smaller blades where the higher hardness can be of benefit. To my understanding, EN-31 is simply a different name for 52100 as they have identical compositions. I'm not sure why this is, but I think it may be due to a different indian classification system. I usually refer to the knife steel as 52100 as it's something which people are more familiar with and makes it easier to understand the characteristics of the steel.
Look karda, I want to clear this whole thing up as I've mentioned many times before and I'm totally open to that. If anything has happened which is immoral then I want it to stop. What you're doing isn't clearing things up, this is mud slinging. Accusing me of stealing designs from Busse out of nowhere is mud slinging. Posting accusations left right and centre and then refusing to answer questions about them is mud slinging. Can you answer the question that both Rostislav and I asked? Can you provide us with a link to any of the product pages for these or the original threads which you got them from? Like I said, i haven't seen them before and if they are just one off pieces then that's pretty important information.
I did no mud slinging at all. I mentioned HI in a positive light. I said if you wanted a super authentic and traditional khukuri then go to himalayan imports. That's me supporting your brand, which as I've mentioned before I have great respect for. Then you come in trying to tell me that I'm eradicating the livelihood of kamis and the culture of Nepal. You deleted your comment, which was the right thing to do and I acknowledge that you made the right decision and hope you don't do it again. Then you do it again and bring in all this copied designs stuff to try and smear everything in the thread previously. Now you accuse me of slinging mud at HI in other forums, but I can guarantee that's something I've never done. I know it's difficult, what with the not being allowed to link to other forums, but as I said I greatly respect HI. KHHI and HI are very different businesses, going after different markets and I totally respect and accept that.
You say that KHHI is pursuing legal action against EGKH? This is totally untrue. Sure, they're unhappy about it but there's nothing they can do about it. KHHI doesn't have a design patent out on any of their designs and as a result have no basis for legal action. They might have thought about it, but they definitely have not pursued legal action.
Karda, you say that you know what improves performance of these knives "but it's a trade secret". Come on. In these videos I've been incredibly transparent and as you've pointed out I've even shown test knives breaking under abuse. But you say that you know the key to ultimate khukuri performance and that it's some sort of secret. I can only guess as to what it might be, such as blessing the knives or rubbing them on magic stones as HI have been known to do in the past. While these are beautiful, absolutely gorgeous processes, which I admire and respect greatly, it's my personal belief that they're of little functional benefit. The heat treat detailed here is performed widely across the entire world and has been proven to be excellent over decades. It's pretty basic stuff. I really don't want to take this to a HI vs KHHI place, but I can explain from a scientific perspective why this new heat treat leads to better performance or if that is deemed too theoretical, once these test knives arrive I can send them on a pass around for user testing and feedback.
Thankyou for all the other comments over here, those who are supportive and those that aren't. I'm sorry that I can't respond to each individually, but the thread is moving very rapidly indeed. If there's any point you'd really like touched on, then please bring them up again and I'll do my best. I'm just a little overwhelmed here. Rostislav, KHHI uses 5160 on traditional blades and EN-31 on various modern blades. I've touched on this at other times but in essence, I would prefer to use 5160 due to the ease of HT and higher toughness, though for supply reasons Saroj elects to use indian EN-31 which he buys direct from a steel mill in some cases, especially smaller blades where the higher hardness can be of benefit. To my understanding, EN-31 is simply a different name for 52100 as they have identical compositions. I'm not sure why this is, but I think it may be due to a different indian classification system. I usually refer to the knife steel as 52100 as it's something which people are more familiar with and makes it easier to understand the characteristics of the steel.
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Maybe it is just poor searching skills, but I did not see in the rules that I could not do this so here is a link to the page that lists these pictures.
http://www.thekhukurihouse.com/Content/DesignOwn/demo.php
The AK Bowie copy is listed as QL-5730 on this page
The Gelbu Special look-alike listed as D-881
The smatchet accused of being a copy of the Spear Vala is listed as QL5861
You can see that on the top of this page that these are products of KHHI's design service. Customer requests, but not regular production.
P.S. Thanks for clarifying about the 52100. Info on EN31 seems more available now, but it still is quite unknown.
http://www.thekhukurihouse.com/Content/DesignOwn/demo.php
The AK Bowie copy is listed as QL-5730 on this page
The Gelbu Special look-alike listed as D-881
The smatchet accused of being a copy of the Spear Vala is listed as QL5861
You can see that on the top of this page that these are products of KHHI's design service. Customer requests, but not regular production.
P.S. Thanks for clarifying about the 52100. Info on EN31 seems more available now, but it still is quite unknown.
You asked for clarification on what stolen designs I was referring to and I posted them. Others notice the design influence of your scourge handle and you should've too. As Rostislav found and directed you to where the products were, I didn't feel it was necessary for me to answer further.One off pieces or no, they are listed on the website to entice customers. It actually would do you well to practice researching things before submitting designs so that you aren't using others designs or design cues without proper credit.
You could've bit your tongue as I was doing and left me out of this thread and left HI out of it entirely.
I never said you were eradicating the livelihood of the kamis or their culture. I only asked you to consider that by your trying to improve the product in the manner you are doing, that you likely aren't helping the kamis as much as you think. Once you start modernizing their passed down legacy, their history and that of those before them may be lost. The time honored way of traditional khukuri making is a dying art. It is being eroded away little by little by people doing exactly what you are doing. You may be helping the owner of KHHI to produce a different product that is no longer traditional and therefore is no longer a national heritage item. You are helping him, but does that translate to helping the kamis?
I ask you this... Does he pay for the kamis children to go to school out of his own pocket? HI makes sure that the Kamis children get their education and pays their tuition as well as for any supplies needed. In a very notable instance HI with the help of the Cantinistas also sent a bishwakarmas son thru many years of medical school to become a doctor. Not only to help provide for his family, but to add another doctor to the ranks in Nepal to help treat those in need. Does he pay for the kamis medical assistance when needed? HI does. Does he provide them housing when needed? HI does. Does he help kamis when they can no longer produce and have been faithful friends and workers? HI does.
These are the things that support those who are the backbone and essence of khukuri making. The Bishwakarma... A group of people of "untouchable" caste who are always at the lowest rungs of society and are almost always exploited for the benefit of others.
There are plenty of modern khukuri on this forum alone to be had by various makers, why should anyone purchase your new product and have a hefty international shipping fee attached when they can get one right here on this forum?
I didn't say you were slinging mud at HI on other forums, but you did in fact directly accuse EGKH of stealing from you and others specifically.
Apparently someone is lying. Not too long ago we had another of you "designers" here doing exactly what you are doing. Showing off his designs and proclaiming them the best thing since sliced bread. He emphatically stated several times that KHHI was indeed pursuing legal action against EGKH among others for design theft and stated his information was directly from the owner of KHHI.
Why should I automatically divulge something to you that has distinguished HI from other khukuri makers? The answers are in front of anyone willing to put in the time and effort to find and realize them.
I ask you this. How much is all this speculative khukuri making and testing you are doing costing KHHI? How much do you think that importing new steels, Importing kydex, micarta and purchasing tempering ovens and the like among other such things going to raise the prices of the new product you envision?
How is changing from a known tough spring steel to a known to be more brittle bearing steel a beneficial thing to do?
Lastly.. How is this actually helping the bishwakarma?
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- Joined
- Jun 30, 2013
- Messages
- 3,994
seriously, could not agree more with karda
I really don't understand how an aussie would know more about knives than a bunch of kami who have been at it their whole lives?
I can only say I am glad I buy from HI; will only ever buy from HI
( on the flip side I can only see the changes to KHHI as being good for yangdu's business )
@karda gotta disagree : HI IS the end all, be all of khukuri-- there is no other maker like it, no other maker even comes close, every company that tries to get HI's business fails because they cannot do what yangdu, pala , and the birgorkha factory can do--- they keep trying, but they keep failing.
I have asked this many times and will ask it again-- if other companies that make khukuri are similar in quality and skill to HI --
why are the kami not allowed to mark the blades? why is it only company logo? is the kami mark a trademark of HI ?--
if that is the case then HI is better because it understood the value of a brand better
see --
there really is no way HI is not superior in every single way to every other khukuri company.
also you want a production HI blade? --- get in line, they are not available and get sold out almost right away.
want any other khukuri maker's blade?-- you can have them delivered in bulk at any time.
they are already stamping out the metal and then just putting a grind on it-- or they could not keep production so high.
one more question-(or two)- does KHHI pay for a place on blade forums? do the people that have forums here pay for it?
I really don't understand how an aussie would know more about knives than a bunch of kami who have been at it their whole lives?
I can only say I am glad I buy from HI; will only ever buy from HI
( on the flip side I can only see the changes to KHHI as being good for yangdu's business )
@karda gotta disagree : HI IS the end all, be all of khukuri-- there is no other maker like it, no other maker even comes close, every company that tries to get HI's business fails because they cannot do what yangdu, pala , and the birgorkha factory can do--- they keep trying, but they keep failing.
I have asked this many times and will ask it again-- if other companies that make khukuri are similar in quality and skill to HI --
why are the kami not allowed to mark the blades? why is it only company logo? is the kami mark a trademark of HI ?--
if that is the case then HI is better because it understood the value of a brand better
see --there really is no way HI is not superior in every single way to every other khukuri company.
also you want a production HI blade? --- get in line, they are not available and get sold out almost right away.
want any other khukuri maker's blade?-- you can have them delivered in bulk at any time.
they are already stamping out the metal and then just putting a grind on it-- or they could not keep production so high.
one more question-(or two)- does KHHI pay for a place on blade forums? do the people that have forums here pay for it?
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On the subject of the designs:
I was just asking about another location because I was under the impression that these were regular production items and expected them to have a web page associated with them.
Thanks for the link, Rostislav. I've never seen this page before, it says something about the poor quality of KHHI's website design when something like this is squirreled away so tightly that I don't know about it. Well if this is the case and they're not actual production models then I think this entire problem has been seriously overblown by Karda. I outright reject that the gelbu special has been copied- it appears to be nothing but a basic variant of the chitlange at this point. As for the Smatchet and the AK bowie, I agree that these are copies. When it comes to laying the blame though, it gets a little tricky. They've clearly been asked for by the customer which is where the seed of this comes from, but from there it does need to cleared and delivered to the kamis, which I see as being one of two people's responsibilities:
Saroj:- The owner. If custom orders go to him then I think it's reasonable to expect him to know that at least the AK bowie is a HI design. I've not seen your smatchet before this, so I don't know if he would have, but I still think in that situation he's clued up enough to take responsibility.
Bivek:- Answers emails, arranges orders and has QC responsibilities. He's a great guy and his mum makes killer rice wine. However I'm not sure he'd be aware of any competitor's products etc and I wouldn't assume foul play at all.
In any case, I think that Himalayan Imports has been done an injustice through the reproduction of their designs. While they may not have any legal claim to them, it's still unethical to use another's designs, especially one from such a small independent business like Himalayan imports. While I can't formally apologise on behalf of KHHI as I'm not a representative, I'm going to try to anyway. I'm sorry for this oversight on behalf of those at KHHI. It pains me to know that the actions of a business that I'm involved with have crossed a moral line that I myself would not cross and that I have repeatedly condemned others for crossing. Intellectual property theft is an awful thing. It fosters an environment which has no competition and punishes innovation and excellence in all it's forms. It hurts customers by leading to a homogenised, bland marketplace, while manipulating them into being complicit with the deed originally committed. As I've said many times before, I feel that Himalayan Imports has flourished due to the fact that it was determined to be different and rise above and beyond the actions of others from the very beginning, helped by a great community, great kamis and wonderful managament like Auntie Yangdu and Uncle Bill, a man who I wish I could have met and who gave so much to Nepal, to Kamis and to the knife community as a whole. To think that something like this has compromised or damaged the products of their intense labour is vastly upsetting to me and something that I regret deeply. Furthermore, to think that these actions have lead to so much hostility and aggression between people is vastly upsetting. As I've said many times, I have huge amounts of respect for Himalayan imports- the work it produces, the people it employs and the work it has done for the benefit of its kamis. I hope that this apology will in some way mend the harm done and lead to greater respect and harmony in future.
The actions that I'll be taking to try and make up for this are as follows:
I will send an email to Saroj telling him that if he does not withdraw these offending designs from the Demo part of the website that I will cease my work with him.
In this email I will also tell him that whoever is in charge of clearing custom designs needs to do a reverse image search on any photographs used as reference points to find their source. If the customer seeks a direct replica then the original manufacturer of the knife will be contacted to gain permission. If permission is denied then the customer will be forced to compromise on the design until it becomes a design with it's own clear identity, or he will be turned away.
If there's anything else that you or other members of the Himalayan Imports family think should be done to mend the issue, then let me know and I'll definitely give it my full consideration.
Namaste and take care,
Andrew
I was just asking about another location because I was under the impression that these were regular production items and expected them to have a web page associated with them.
Thanks for the link, Rostislav. I've never seen this page before, it says something about the poor quality of KHHI's website design when something like this is squirreled away so tightly that I don't know about it. Well if this is the case and they're not actual production models then I think this entire problem has been seriously overblown by Karda. I outright reject that the gelbu special has been copied- it appears to be nothing but a basic variant of the chitlange at this point. As for the Smatchet and the AK bowie, I agree that these are copies. When it comes to laying the blame though, it gets a little tricky. They've clearly been asked for by the customer which is where the seed of this comes from, but from there it does need to cleared and delivered to the kamis, which I see as being one of two people's responsibilities:
Saroj:- The owner. If custom orders go to him then I think it's reasonable to expect him to know that at least the AK bowie is a HI design. I've not seen your smatchet before this, so I don't know if he would have, but I still think in that situation he's clued up enough to take responsibility.
Bivek:- Answers emails, arranges orders and has QC responsibilities. He's a great guy and his mum makes killer rice wine. However I'm not sure he'd be aware of any competitor's products etc and I wouldn't assume foul play at all.
In any case, I think that Himalayan Imports has been done an injustice through the reproduction of their designs. While they may not have any legal claim to them, it's still unethical to use another's designs, especially one from such a small independent business like Himalayan imports. While I can't formally apologise on behalf of KHHI as I'm not a representative, I'm going to try to anyway. I'm sorry for this oversight on behalf of those at KHHI. It pains me to know that the actions of a business that I'm involved with have crossed a moral line that I myself would not cross and that I have repeatedly condemned others for crossing. Intellectual property theft is an awful thing. It fosters an environment which has no competition and punishes innovation and excellence in all it's forms. It hurts customers by leading to a homogenised, bland marketplace, while manipulating them into being complicit with the deed originally committed. As I've said many times before, I feel that Himalayan Imports has flourished due to the fact that it was determined to be different and rise above and beyond the actions of others from the very beginning, helped by a great community, great kamis and wonderful managament like Auntie Yangdu and Uncle Bill, a man who I wish I could have met and who gave so much to Nepal, to Kamis and to the knife community as a whole. To think that something like this has compromised or damaged the products of their intense labour is vastly upsetting to me and something that I regret deeply. Furthermore, to think that these actions have lead to so much hostility and aggression between people is vastly upsetting. As I've said many times, I have huge amounts of respect for Himalayan imports- the work it produces, the people it employs and the work it has done for the benefit of its kamis. I hope that this apology will in some way mend the harm done and lead to greater respect and harmony in future.
The actions that I'll be taking to try and make up for this are as follows:
I will send an email to Saroj telling him that if he does not withdraw these offending designs from the Demo part of the website that I will cease my work with him.
In this email I will also tell him that whoever is in charge of clearing custom designs needs to do a reverse image search on any photographs used as reference points to find their source. If the customer seeks a direct replica then the original manufacturer of the knife will be contacted to gain permission. If permission is denied then the customer will be forced to compromise on the design until it becomes a design with it's own clear identity, or he will be turned away.
If there's anything else that you or other members of the Himalayan Imports family think should be done to mend the issue, then let me know and I'll definitely give it my full consideration.
Namaste and take care,
Andrew
Andrew,
I can accept a heartfelt apology from you. It is appreciated.
Unfortunately damage likely has been done already.
I too apologize for taking this road in your thread, but I've held my tongue for a very long time out of respect for the businesses involved, but most of all for the Kamis that are employed by them. It pains me greatly to see people exploited for the sake of profit. It pains me greatly to see an animal exploited for the same reason. I do my best to follow the essence of the Buddha and the teachings, but sometimes holding ones tongue is the crime of complacence. I try to live my life now to help rather than hurt. To try to help to right wrongs instead of ignoring them. To try to foster the essence of good karma in myself and those around me. To think about my actions and how it affects the world around me. The path of enlightenment is a long hard road, one that can only be sought thru selflessness and dharma.
I can accept a heartfelt apology from you. It is appreciated.
Unfortunately damage likely has been done already.
I too apologize for taking this road in your thread, but I've held my tongue for a very long time out of respect for the businesses involved, but most of all for the Kamis that are employed by them. It pains me greatly to see people exploited for the sake of profit. It pains me greatly to see an animal exploited for the same reason. I do my best to follow the essence of the Buddha and the teachings, but sometimes holding ones tongue is the crime of complacence. I try to live my life now to help rather than hurt. To try to help to right wrongs instead of ignoring them. To try to foster the essence of good karma in myself and those around me. To think about my actions and how it affects the world around me. The path of enlightenment is a long hard road, one that can only be sought thru selflessness and dharma.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2009
- Messages
- 2,228
Not getting into anything but this: you can make a stellar khukuri from 52100, just as you can make a stellar bird & trout knife from 5160. Just have to pay attention to your geometry and heat treat.
I think it's important to realize that the changes in quench and heat treat may not be that big a deal to the company, but are a huge deal to men who make knives in a country where supplies can be tricky to get. Differential hardening a khukuri correctly (and by that I mean just hardening the whole edge) in oil without an acetylene torch is tricky-and not always repeatable.
The teapot quench is very hard to do right, especially on an oil hardening steel like 5160-but it is something that only requires a fire, water and something to pour out of. If the smiths of Nepal lose that skill they are going to be forever dependent on tools and supplies most of 'em can't affor to own, and that would be a shame.
I think it's important to realize that the changes in quench and heat treat may not be that big a deal to the company, but are a huge deal to men who make knives in a country where supplies can be tricky to get. Differential hardening a khukuri correctly (and by that I mean just hardening the whole edge) in oil without an acetylene torch is tricky-and not always repeatable.
The teapot quench is very hard to do right, especially on an oil hardening steel like 5160-but it is something that only requires a fire, water and something to pour out of. If the smiths of Nepal lose that skill they are going to be forever dependent on tools and supplies most of 'em can't affor to own, and that would be a shame.
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As for the rest of Karda's message I will try to keep it brief, these messages are getting very long now:
My stay in nepal was quite short, not nearly enough for me to absorb the intricacies of the country and the culture. Coming from a country with socialised healthcare, free education, unemployment welfare and an old age pension, the differences were staggering. Saddeningly so. I had a long conversation with saroj about how he supports his kamis, but still it was only one conversation. I'll try my best to answer your questions.
Saroj as far as I'm aware does not pay for his kami's children's education, tuition or school supplies. He does however, pay for medical assistance for the kamis and their families, provides housing and supports kamis after retirement age all out of his own pocket. The way he explained it to me was that when you take on a kami there is a ritual or an agreement of sorts which occurs in which the kamis state that they are wholly loyal to their boss and that they are are obliged to serve them to the best of their abilities and in return the boss takes on not just the kami as a worker but the entire family unit, seen as a single entity. If the worker is sick then it is the responsibility of the boss to care for them and provide for their family until all is mended. Likewise, if say the workers mother is sick, then she is seen as the same entity as the worker. How can the kami possibly work if his mother is sick? The boss pays for and provides for the family until all is mended. I also understand that he has taken on many other responsibilities, such as supporting a family and advocating for his kami after they ran into trouble with the police and also acting as a vessel to take on the debt that his kamis might accrue, be it a result of unwise spending, money flow problems or even the result of gambling debts. As far as the workers being exploited, I've been told by both workers, management and Saroj's wife who works for a non profit organisation that deals with women's and children's rights that they earn more than a governmental worker.
While it is true that they don't offer the same level of care that Himalayan Imports does, it's a lot more difficult for KHHI to do so due to the much larger number of Kamis involved. I don't know what the current count is on kamis under Himalayan Imports employ is, but it's under 10, right? KHHI employs more than 40 and a lot more workers benefit from this treatment which they wouldn't get with other houses or freelancing out of Dharan.
In my time in Nepal I became very acquainted with the Hindu Caste system and honestly I'm not a supporter of it at all. It allows for widespread discrimination based on your genetic lineage or even your last name and I'm happy as hell that it's rapidly losing significance over there. Now it's an example of a tradition and a legacy which has many negative effects on kamis. Do you support it? Without it, this exploitation which so heavily grieves you wouldn't be taking place. I'm not a cultural relativist by any means and I believe in critical thinking, but that doesn't make me a racist, white supremacist or a nazi as Gehazi suggests. I'm not sure I should even respond to that honestly, that kind of personal attack belongs in W&C. The concept of white man's burden is one which stings me particularly hard when you take into account the history between white australians and the indigenous peoples of this land. It stings even more when you take into account that a small portion of the blood running through my veins belongs to those indigenous people.
Regardless of this, I will "bite my tongue" as Karda suggests and answer your questions regardless. I think every khukuri house should have maker's stamp their blades, it's a fantastic tool to create a personal connection between customer and maker and does wonders for the brand. This is something that HI understands because they're smart cookies. I feel like the reason the other houses don't do this is because the managers are business degree graduates and they have this distinctly chinese approach to manufacturing instilled into them. That the product should be identical, as cheap as possible and you should make as many as you possibly can. None of the khukuri houses can compete against Chinese mass manufacturing so the fact that they have the same business mentality is stupid as hell. Himalayan imports is the lone exception to this, which is why as I've said before, they're very smart cookies
As for you final question, (from what I understand) neither KHHI nor Himalayan Imports pay to have a place on this forum. Subforums are free and the traffic that they produce is seen as payment enough, though they are given out rather selectively. If I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me.
Thanks for your apology, though. It's truly incredible what a devoted fan base Himalayan imports have managed to cultivate over the years and I can understand the urge to defend a product and a business which you value so dearly.
Back to Karda though, I don't know who this other designer you're talking about is. As far as I'm aware, the only western people to have designs produced by KHHI are Frank Gonzales of knivesbyhand, James McCurdy and myself. After a little search, I found the thread you've mentioned ans it goes a way to explaining the kind of response I've gotten from you in the past haha! What a nutjob. All I can say is that I don't know who he is and that as a result of that he probaby didn't know what he was talking about in regards to any legal action by KHHI. I can look into it further if you'd like.
As for how much these new processes and prototypes are costing KHHI, all of this comes directly out of Saroj's pocket. The tempering oven was already bought before I arrived and was being used to dry handle wood to reduce shrinking and cracking once on the handle. The micarta, I have very little idea about. I'd imagine that when you take shipping into account, the result would be a knife that costs around $10-$15 more, but I think that's pretty reasonable and the option for wood or horn would still be there. Kydex sheaths are pricey and a lot of work goes into them. They would be sold separately I imagine, and the price range would probably be $60-$75 for an 12" bladed khukuri, with the price varying wildly with length.
As for your final question, as to how the kamis benefit, as mentioned I am not an employee of KHHI and I can only control the prices and sales which occur on my designs. That said though, for these new designs, I have an agreement with Saroj that the workers will be paid double the usual amount as I see it as the fair and just thing to do for their hard work, regardless of lost potential profit.
I'm sorry if I've missed any questions, like I said there's a lot coming at me every time I log on.
Take care,
Andrew
My stay in nepal was quite short, not nearly enough for me to absorb the intricacies of the country and the culture. Coming from a country with socialised healthcare, free education, unemployment welfare and an old age pension, the differences were staggering. Saddeningly so. I had a long conversation with saroj about how he supports his kamis, but still it was only one conversation. I'll try my best to answer your questions.
Saroj as far as I'm aware does not pay for his kami's children's education, tuition or school supplies. He does however, pay for medical assistance for the kamis and their families, provides housing and supports kamis after retirement age all out of his own pocket. The way he explained it to me was that when you take on a kami there is a ritual or an agreement of sorts which occurs in which the kamis state that they are wholly loyal to their boss and that they are are obliged to serve them to the best of their abilities and in return the boss takes on not just the kami as a worker but the entire family unit, seen as a single entity. If the worker is sick then it is the responsibility of the boss to care for them and provide for their family until all is mended. Likewise, if say the workers mother is sick, then she is seen as the same entity as the worker. How can the kami possibly work if his mother is sick? The boss pays for and provides for the family until all is mended. I also understand that he has taken on many other responsibilities, such as supporting a family and advocating for his kami after they ran into trouble with the police and also acting as a vessel to take on the debt that his kamis might accrue, be it a result of unwise spending, money flow problems or even the result of gambling debts. As far as the workers being exploited, I've been told by both workers, management and Saroj's wife who works for a non profit organisation that deals with women's and children's rights that they earn more than a governmental worker.
While it is true that they don't offer the same level of care that Himalayan Imports does, it's a lot more difficult for KHHI to do so due to the much larger number of Kamis involved. I don't know what the current count is on kamis under Himalayan Imports employ is, but it's under 10, right? KHHI employs more than 40 and a lot more workers benefit from this treatment which they wouldn't get with other houses or freelancing out of Dharan.
In my time in Nepal I became very acquainted with the Hindu Caste system and honestly I'm not a supporter of it at all. It allows for widespread discrimination based on your genetic lineage or even your last name and I'm happy as hell that it's rapidly losing significance over there. Now it's an example of a tradition and a legacy which has many negative effects on kamis. Do you support it? Without it, this exploitation which so heavily grieves you wouldn't be taking place. I'm not a cultural relativist by any means and I believe in critical thinking, but that doesn't make me a racist, white supremacist or a nazi as Gehazi suggests. I'm not sure I should even respond to that honestly, that kind of personal attack belongs in W&C. The concept of white man's burden is one which stings me particularly hard when you take into account the history between white australians and the indigenous peoples of this land. It stings even more when you take into account that a small portion of the blood running through my veins belongs to those indigenous people.
Regardless of this, I will "bite my tongue" as Karda suggests and answer your questions regardless. I think every khukuri house should have maker's stamp their blades, it's a fantastic tool to create a personal connection between customer and maker and does wonders for the brand. This is something that HI understands because they're smart cookies. I feel like the reason the other houses don't do this is because the managers are business degree graduates and they have this distinctly chinese approach to manufacturing instilled into them. That the product should be identical, as cheap as possible and you should make as many as you possibly can. None of the khukuri houses can compete against Chinese mass manufacturing so the fact that they have the same business mentality is stupid as hell. Himalayan imports is the lone exception to this, which is why as I've said before, they're very smart cookies
As for you final question, (from what I understand) neither KHHI nor Himalayan Imports pay to have a place on this forum. Subforums are free and the traffic that they produce is seen as payment enough, though they are given out rather selectively. If I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me.
Thanks for your apology, though. It's truly incredible what a devoted fan base Himalayan imports have managed to cultivate over the years and I can understand the urge to defend a product and a business which you value so dearly.
Back to Karda though, I don't know who this other designer you're talking about is. As far as I'm aware, the only western people to have designs produced by KHHI are Frank Gonzales of knivesbyhand, James McCurdy and myself. After a little search, I found the thread you've mentioned ans it goes a way to explaining the kind of response I've gotten from you in the past haha! What a nutjob. All I can say is that I don't know who he is and that as a result of that he probaby didn't know what he was talking about in regards to any legal action by KHHI. I can look into it further if you'd like.
As for how much these new processes and prototypes are costing KHHI, all of this comes directly out of Saroj's pocket. The tempering oven was already bought before I arrived and was being used to dry handle wood to reduce shrinking and cracking once on the handle. The micarta, I have very little idea about. I'd imagine that when you take shipping into account, the result would be a knife that costs around $10-$15 more, but I think that's pretty reasonable and the option for wood or horn would still be there. Kydex sheaths are pricey and a lot of work goes into them. They would be sold separately I imagine, and the price range would probably be $60-$75 for an 12" bladed khukuri, with the price varying wildly with length.
As for your final question, as to how the kamis benefit, as mentioned I am not an employee of KHHI and I can only control the prices and sales which occur on my designs. That said though, for these new designs, I have an agreement with Saroj that the workers will be paid double the usual amount as I see it as the fair and just thing to do for their hard work, regardless of lost potential profit.
I'm sorry if I've missed any questions, like I said there's a lot coming at me every time I log on.
Take care,
Andrew
Thanks, JW, I agree. While 52100 might not be ideal, great things can still be accomplished with it. I should point out that while the modern heat treat 52100 was less impressive than the modern heat treat 5160, it was still performing well above the traditionally quenched 5160 blades which showed uneven hardness along the edge, excessive rolling under moderate conditions at the softer parts and an amount of chipping at the harder parts which was in no way negligible.
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see that you edited your post. Like I've said from the very beginning in these videos and until now I'm not out to try and eliminate any traditional techniques, just to provide a superior alternative where there is market demand for it. Many people don't wish to have an oil quenched khukuri and for those, the option is still there. It would be a horrible thing to have such a humble and eccentric process go out of common usage, but the majority of kamis won't learn the oil quench in the first place so it should be right as rain.
The differential hardening shown in the videos doesn't incorporate an oxy acetylene torch or "drawing" the spine or tang in any way in that it isn't a true edge quench. The spine and tang do contact the oil at some points and get harder as a result, though it is for a very short time while the edge is submerged for the entirety of the time. The blade design throws up all sorts of issues like that and the majority of the non standard practices used by kamis (like sharpening with files instead of against a bench stone) are all unique solutions that focus on dealing with that troublesome recurve.
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fugglesby you seem like an extremely earnest man, and I wish you the best luck, I agree the hand made business model is a much better way to compete with mass production; and thank you for your very well thought out and detailed responses; I understand you are doing what you can to help another company in nepal, and as far as I am concerned anything that can improve the lot of that nation, needs to be done.
I don't think you left a single question unanswered. hopefully you can help KHHI improve their sales with your idea of departmental divisions ( which I think is a good plan) -- divide between the new type kami and the strictly traditional-- offering both
I don't think you left a single question unanswered. hopefully you can help KHHI improve their sales with your idea of departmental divisions ( which I think is a good plan) -- divide between the new type kami and the strictly traditional-- offering both
Gehazi, thank you so much for your kind words. It really means a lot coming from such a die hard khukuri fan. I recently had a look through some photos of your collection that were linked in an old Himalayan Imports thread. I must say you have a truly incredible hoard going on, especially your older blades. Or at least I think it was your collection? I've recently been to the ghurka museum in Ghorka, I was taken by a shoemaker who is good friends with one of the kamis. I must say that I think your collection rivals what they have at that very musuem!
On the topic of the departmentalisation of the kamis at KHHI, this is something which was already in place before I arrived so I can't take credit for it
Karda, I'm glad that it's a tradition we both believe should be buried. Interestingly though, the weakening of the stigma surrounding the caste system doesn't just allow for the previously lower classes to ascend, but allows for the higher classes to get their hands dirty if they so choose! All of the kamis at KHHI are Bishwakarma except for one, my friend Siru who I have mentioned previously in this thread. He is in fact a Brahmin by name and birth, but just really loves khukuris and asked to become a kami. He's only been at it for a few years, but his thirst for knowledge is incredible and he has a very different attitude to the born kamis as well. It takes all kinds as they say.
On the topic of the departmentalisation of the kamis at KHHI, this is something which was already in place before I arrived so I can't take credit for it
Karda, I'm glad that it's a tradition we both believe should be buried. Interestingly though, the weakening of the stigma surrounding the caste system doesn't just allow for the previously lower classes to ascend, but allows for the higher classes to get their hands dirty if they so choose! All of the kamis at KHHI are Bishwakarma except for one, my friend Siru who I have mentioned previously in this thread. He is in fact a Brahmin by name and birth, but just really loves khukuris and asked to become a kami. He's only been at it for a few years, but his thirst for knowledge is incredible and he has a very different attitude to the born kamis as well. It takes all kinds as they say.
In regards to the 52100's potential issues due to lower toughness and higher hardness, I purchased nearly a year ago a blade made by them out of the EN31 they use. Now I am far from an expert, but after I have chopped down a few trees, some dead hardwood branches( which I believe were Brazilian walnut), removed a stump( which took a lot of chopping) and did some splitting/batoning for making a couple small backyard fires and saw no sign of edge damage from any of them, seems like the concerns regarding brittleness did not apply to my knife. Yet again, it is 3/8" thick, and has a low convex grind, so I am not sure how it would preform in more demanding dimensions.
Good to hear! My experience with the traditionally quenched 52100 blades is very similar. No damage under normal use, though I noted slightly lower edge retention than expected for such a steel. However upon hitting nails in wood, swinging into gravel or rocks when digging out roots or plain abuse (stabbing a washing machine and cutting a bicycle in half), I found that the edge chipped or rolled much more easily than it should have depending on the part of the edge.
With the washing machine, the tip bent fully to 90 degrees. the kind of damage from the chipping was the sort of thing that needed a bench grinder to fix or a fair bit of time with a file. Not ideal.
You hit the nail on the head though with the dimensions. The geometry defines the performance of the knife and the new heat treat allows for acceptable durability at much more sever edge and grind angles, which should lead to some great new things.
With the washing machine, the tip bent fully to 90 degrees. the kind of damage from the chipping was the sort of thing that needed a bench grinder to fix or a fair bit of time with a file. Not ideal.
You hit the nail on the head though with the dimensions. The geometry defines the performance of the knife and the new heat treat allows for acceptable durability at much more sever edge and grind angles, which should lead to some great new things.
Actually, now I think of it, I did bend the probably half of a millimeter of the tip when I was going to stab it into a piece of wood (Excalibur style is how I would like to think of it) and missed, right onto concrete. I filed it down and filed just the upper portion of the spine up to meet the rest of the edge and it is barely noticeable. I think I remember hearing of a similar incident with 5160 and 1055 where there was no damage stabbing into concrete, so, I suppose the merit of the extra toughness is quite nice for accidental abuse or abuse flat out.