An Australian in Nepal: The Khukuri Files

[Karda]

3: As I have mentioned repeatedly in our past discussions karda, I am happy to discuss any and all things related to these allegedly copied designs whenever you'd like, granted I'd prefer it be in a specific topic devoted to it. In a past interaction between you and I, you stated that this was also what you'd prefer "I will prefer to let you designers and Mr. Lama go about your business until there is plenty of irrefutable evidence (there is irrefutable evidence of this act already)...and then we will have a discussion." But here you are, once again bringing up the topic. I'm beginning to think that you don't want a resolution to come at all as that would leave you with one less thing to use to start arguments with. I'll repeat what I said in earlier threads. I hate IP theft and won't stand for it. I'd love some clarification and resolution on this issue.

No "alleging" at all Andrew. But a fact....Documented and ages old designs pioneered by Himalayan Imports long before being shown on the KHHI website.

The Gelbu Special (named after the owners son) a modified chitlangi style;
HI:

KHHI:

The Ang Khola Bowie:
HI:

KHHI:

The Spear Vala:
HI:

KHHI:

4: The busse accusation is both ridiculous and hurtful. If you think it's something Jerry Busse should know about, then feel free to send a message to his account on bladeforums and if it's not okay by him then once again, I'm more than happy to enter into a discussion with him.

A Busse handle:

The KHHI Scourge handle:

 

[Rostislav]

I would say personally I find the handle of the Scourge may have been inspired by Busse originally due to the lanyard hole placement, but I personally find the statement that it is a copy far-fetched, as Busse seems to be known for their talon holes primarily, which this kukri does not have. Also, I am pretty sure the Spear Vala is basically a polished smatchet, not that there is anything wrong with that, but the way it is presented in your post almost suggests that it is a HI invention. What I do have to agree with you, is there is no doubt in my mind that the Ang Khola Bowie and the, well, KHHI bowie, are much to similar, and their differences appear to be in only very minor angles. None of this is meant as a personal attack on your opinion or views, rather, just a contrast that I view personally on some of them.

 

[Karda]

I would say personally I find the handle of the Scourge may have been inspired by Busse originally due to the lanyard hole placement, but I personally find the statement that it is a copy far-fetched, as Busse seems to be known for their talon holes primarily, which this kukri does not have. Also, I am pretty sure the Spear Vala is basically a polished smatchet, not that there is anything wrong with that, but the way it is presented in your post almost suggests that it is a HI invention. What I do have to agree with you, is there is no doubt in my mind that the Ang Khola Bowie and the, well, KHHI bowie, are much to similar, and their differences appear to be in only very minor angles. None of this is meant as a personal attack on your opinion or views, rather, just a contrast that I view personally on some of them.

HI makes it pretty clear that the Spear Vala is the Nepali version of the smatchet. HI have never claimed it was our "invention".
There is a pretty major difference in similar designing of a blade that is for the most part in public domain and one that is not and an oughtright copy verbatim.

 

[jdk1]

Before there were powered grinders there were manual grinding wheels and files, so that change isn't all that dramatic.
It isn't just the quench he's changing, its the steel also. Changing the production parameters from the time honored and passed down regimen that these kamis use makes them a modern rendition that is less authentic or traditional and can be bought all over this forum by people who know what they are doing with it, instead of fugglsby who thinks that traditional khukuri are tempered by the grinding process. If you look at these videos closely, he really knows very little of either modern or traditional knifemaking, yet he is in Nepal coaching men, with his suppositions, who've had an art passed down to them by the generations. As you can see by the chipping rolling and breakage in his videos here, the oil quench and steel change really isn't any real improvement over the time honored traditions. Might as well just start doing stock removal or stamping the khukuris out by machine. I do have a concern though, how much does one think these new imported supplies are going to cost in the long run and where is the used up oil going to go?

No doubt about the grinding wheels. I remember my grandfather's old concrete (?) wheel with a hand crank he used for sharpening axes. I guess to me the tea pot vs. oil quench is in the same category and just a different take on a similar method of HT'ing (differential HT). I can't speak to the environmental issues except maybe they can use old french fry oil to quench then turn it into biodiesel I agree there were some issues evident during testing, as when the blade snapped, which is as catastrophic and dangerous as it gets. If it can be tweaked to actually improve performance and maintain the virtues of the original, easy repair/sharpening and shock-absorbtion, then I'm for it.

 

[fugglesby]

Thankyou for the comments, jdk and jac_solar.
On the comparison between the change to oil quenching and the change to power tools, I think it's a valid one, though there are a few differences. Power tools increase production efficiency, while the different heat treat improves quality. In actual fact, the increased hardness of the blades reduce production efficiency because the steel is harder to work afterwards. It's not a major difference but it's taken into account and the kamis are compensated accordingly. it's a step towards higher consistency and quality of blade and shouldn't be seen as corner cutting in any way shape or form. Also I should point out that the introduction of power tools to kamis is something which is boasted about proudly on HI's website as a step towards modernisation, the exact thing you decry here.

As for your comment jac_solar, I agree for the most part. While I do agree that due to the narrowness of the field in which khukuris are designed makes overlap quite difficult to avoid, that doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of foul play. As I've mentioned in the past, as far as I was aware, these supposed copied designs took place a long time before my involvement with KHHI, but Karda claims differently and he may well be right. I don't know, which is why I'm open to discussing this elsewhere at a later date. I'd prefer if it weren't in this thread though.

Yes karda, you're right, that I'm in no way an expert on heat treat. I'm primarily a designer, which was my purpose for the trip and I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was undertaking the role of some sort of foreign knife making genius. I do have a reasonable knowledge of many things knife related though but when I'm on camera and not typing my words get kind of garbled. I can say two things though. Firstly, my statement about knives being ground reducing the hardness of the knives was taken out of context. When I said it I was using it as a possible explanation of why traditional khukuri processes don't include a temper- that kamis believe that heat from grinding is sufficient. While it's true that grinding does lead to heating and a loss of hardness at the very surface of the metal and hence at the edge, it is in no way whatsoever an alternative to a full, long controlled temper.
The second thing I can say is that the very fact that you ask me where the edge quench oil goes after quenching shows that you lack some critical knifemaking knowledge as well. Quenchant oil is reusable for an extended period of time. Depending on use it will gradually become polluted with slag after a year or so at which point it becomes a slower quenchant and leads to lower hardnesses. However, at this stage the hardness would still be very acceptable for this application so I imagine the oil could be used for a few years at least. At this point the 9L of oil used in the quench bath could be used in any number of ways. It could be used to soak materials to use as firestarters, or filtered through cloth and used to run a truck for example.
Can this please stop now? The thread is derailed enough as is.

 

[fugglesby]

And it seems like a lot has happened between my two last posts. Please give me a moment to respond.

 

[Rostislav]

HI makes it pretty clear that the Spear Vala is the Nepali version of the smatchet. HI have never claimed it was our "invention".
There is a pretty major difference in similar designing of a blade that is for the most part in public domain and one that is not and an oughtright copy verbatim.

Alright, I was just a bit muddled by your use of the word 'pioneered' and thought it as if you were saying they were originators of the styles rather than adaptations. I am not going to say that the designer of that blade for KHHI would be ignorant to the fact that HI released their version of the smatchet first, but I find that style-wise, due to the difference in handle-to-blade length ratio, different grind, different finish, the fact that the KHHI has a short visible swedge whilst the HI version seems to be sharpened fully on both sides, the metal bolster height to the handle height ratio, the number of pins in place, and the actual shape of the handle if looking at it top down appears to be different(KHHI appears fully rounded whilst HI appears to have it flat on the sides that flows into a curve into the tang) are more than enough aspects to not classify it (in my opinion) as a copy.

 

[fugglesby]

Karda, are you really doing this here? In the last thread with you and I you said you'd take it to somewhere else, I didn't expect that you'd derail my thread with it.
I'll respond, but I'd really rather you take this to a separate thread, okay? I was posting videos in here before in case you didn't realise.
The gelbu special looks to be just a chitlange to me? Which I understand is a regional variant of the sirupate? If there's some crucial difference that I'm missing out on here then let me know. If this is what all this fuss is about then that's... well that's certainly something.
As for the AK bowie and the Spear Vala, I've never encountered these designs in the KHHI Catalog before? Granted it's big enough to get lost in, but can you link me to a product page? Or are these custom designs which were commissioned for HI to make?

As for the scourge picture you provided, I think I should point out that that is not an actual picture of any knife which has ever been made. It was a photoshop mockup to show what a scourge without a guard would look like in buffalo horn. For reference, The actual scourge handle.

There is a thread on another forum which shows the design process of the scourge. There you'll see the knife handle evolve naturally to that state over the course of about 30 sketches. I really feel like you're stretching to paint me as a villain here, Karda. As I said before, I'm not.

Finally, as for your questions karda, The chipping and rolling and breaking in the videos occured because they were test knives with experimental heat treats. If you look at the performance of the knives with the final heat treats we reached, there is no breaking, and there is only very minor chipping under extreme abuse with the 52100. The 5160 is shown to cut through rebar without any damage whatsoever. There are no new imported supplies for the quench. We used vegetable oil from the canteen around the corner and it cost under 500 rupees ($5) for the whole thing. As for the kydex etc, are you looking for the price of the raw materials or the hypothetical end product? I should reinforce that these processes and sheaths are all currently theoretical. Hopefully I'll get a shipment of prototype blades and sheaths soon which the kamis have produced without my help and from there we'll decide if they'll go on sale to the general market.
Karda, please can you take this elsewhere? If your goal was to derail the thread and try to smear everything I've mentioned previsouly in the thread, then you've succeeded. While I'm happy to discuss any processes, heat treat or traditional vs modern khukuri related things, this whole copied designs malarkey doesn't belong here.
Take care,
Andrew

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Wow. I was excited that you show them some new techniques. I also liked the videos and how you poke fun at some of the guys over there. Let's hope they never learn English and dont check the Internetz. They might come after us with long pointy things.

Seeing the copies makes me sad.
Handle ratio, swedge and one extra pin on one might be different but overall there are more similarities down to the blade shape, guard and the pommel end.

The first thin Kuk pictures are 100% identical. I can't find a difference but at least the copies are Kukris and if one doesn't know better one might think that the Gelbu Special is a common design in Nepal. However it isn't.

Then there's also no arguing about the AK Bowie. Come on, it was so unique when HI came out with it unique in the world and for sure in Nepal. The copy cats made not even the slightest attempt on putting their thoughts into it. Mindless , 1 to 1 copy. :-(

Busse is probably to cool to sue some tiny Kukri makers in a foreign country but there's no denying that the handles look very similar. It's not just the hole but the shape of the metal around it down to the top of the handle. If it's unique enough to be protected legally can be argued but that it's a copy is obvious. It's an atypical design element for the copy cats and only appeared after Busse had developed it.

Anyways even with all the similarities and 100% copies there shouldn't be any real danger to regular customers of Busse and Himalayan Imports. They know about the difference in quality and pay a bit extra for it. However there will be a measurable loss of revenue from new customers who aren't that experienced yet. They might buy their first bad quality fake from the cheaper guys, not knowing that they are fakes and of lower quality.
Let's hope some of them do some research here in BF so that they can make an informed decision.

 

[Rostislav]

.
As for the AK bowie and the Spear Vala, I've never encountered these designs in the KHHI Catalog before? Granted it's big enough to get lost in, but can you link me to a product page? Or are these custom designs which were commissioned for HI to make?

I know you asked Karda this question, but I was curious about this myself. Doing a bit of poking around, I found them under the DesignOwn/demo.php section of the KHHI website(don't know if I am allowed to post a link or not). From what the top of the page suggests, these are designs that were submitted by customers to be made. From what I am guessing, someone saw a design from HI, for example the AK bowie, decided they wanted to pay less for it from someone else(which they may of actually payed more, considering the astronomical shipping costs involved) and asked KHHI to make a blade which either had the same specs as the AK, or included a picture of the AK and asked for a blade like it. To be honest, not sure if the customers are to blame or KHHI is, but it certainly seems to be a one off, rather than a 'production' model.

 

[Allex]

so, back to improvments, what's next? powder steel, cnc machines? G10 handels?

 

[fugglesby]

As far as techniques go, that's it, nothing else new. Just prototypes of new designs to go along with the traditional ones on the way now. The increased strength afforded by the new heat treat should hopefully allow for these designs to employ some more acute grind angles while maintaining the same durability. The upshot of these steeper primary grind angles on the modern designs being deeper penetration in wood for a given weight while still employing the same spine thickness for rigidity and durability. I stress again, that this is only something for the few new designs coming as a result of this trip-traditional khukuri geometry stays traditional.
As far as G-10 handles etc goes, it's something which has been asked for by customers repeatedly. I think Saroj is planning on getting some micarta in the not too distant future and making a test blade or two to see if it's possible to have as an option with custom orders. Apart from that, I'm pretty much in the dark for any other future plans.

 

[fugglesby]

I feel like a lot of the bad vibes towards this whole thing might come from my important failure to communicate how KHHI is structured.
There's two distinct, sections- Modern and Traditional. Skill levels differ within these groups, with Tilak being perhaps the most talented kami of all (a traditional man) and Santosh being the best of the modern kamis. These kamis specialise in the different kinds of knives and it's a choice that they make themselves. In the case that a custom was made with micarta as hypothetically mentioned above, then it would go to a modern kami, specifically a kami who's interested in working with micarta. In the same way that with the kydex sheaths the kami who helped me was actually a modern kami called Siru, not a sheathmaker at all. The dedicated sheathmaker was interested in the western leather sheath and so we worked on that, but the kydex didn't appeal to him at all, so I worked with Siru instead. These aren't blanket changes at all, but rather skills which are being taught to kamis interested in them. Let's say that an order has come in for a service no1 with the modern heat treat. If the kami doesn't want to do the modern heat treat, then he won't do it. The knife then goes to a modern kami who has the skills and he quenches and tempers the blade. Everybody gets to do what they prefer and what they specialise in and the customers get what they want.
Take care,
Andrew

 

[Rostislav]

fugglesby, I noticed you mentioned 52100 is going to be used. I was wondering if you could explain the difference between that and EN31, a steel that KHHI uses and I thought was an equivalent to 52100.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I feel like a lot of the bad vibes towards this whole thing might come from my important failure to communicate how KHHI is structured.
There's two distinct, sections- Modern and Traditional. Skill levels differ within these groups, with Tilak being perhaps the most talented kami of all (a traditional man) and Santosh being the best of the modern kamis. These kamis specialise in the different kinds of knives and it's a choice that they make themselves. In the case that a custom was made with micarta as hypothetically mentioned above, then it would go to a modern kami, specifically a kami who's interested in working with micarta. In the same way that with the kydex sheaths the kami who helped me was actually a modern kami called Siru, not a sheathmaker at all. The dedicated sheathmaker was interested in the western leather sheath and so we worked on that, but the kydex didn't appeal to him at all, so I worked with Siru instead. These aren't blanket changes at all, but rather skills which are being taught to kamis interested in them. Let's say that an order has come in for a service no1 with the modern heat treat. If the kami doesn't want to do the modern heat treat, then he won't do it. The knife then goes to a modern kami who has the skills and he quenches and tempers the blade. Everybody gets to do what they prefer and what they specialise in and the customers get what they want.
Take care,
Andrew

Even if it's two sections it's still theft. I don't see how having 2 sections would justify stealing and make it a simple misunderstanding.
Btw both your sections seem to have stolen part of designs and even copied whole knives ...

 

[Silverjohn]

Thanks for posting these Fugglesby, intersting viewing.

It's a shame that some folks felt the need to inject poison into the thread.

People are talking like kukri have only ever been made a certain way with certain materials, that's nonsense. Any mechanisation is a deviation from "traditional" production and all current producers of kukri are mechanised to a degree. What does another change in steel matter? Antique kukri have been made from bloomery steel, pattern welded damascus, wootz, tightly laminated steel, steel loosely laminated from odds and ends, as well as modern mono, Railway tracks and truck leaf springs. Different steels for different times doesn't mean it's not "authentic".

As for the accusations of copying, the "gelbu special" looks like any other "Chainpure" or "Chitlang" and is a style that has been around since at least the 60's (I have seen vintage pieces dated to this period) so that's an unfair accusation. The other strange looking blades are not familiar to me so I won't comment.

A lot of people on this forum have been drinking the HI cool aid and think that if it's not HI it's "fake" (What is that supposed to mean?) or inferior. I know another producer of kukri that sneers at HI in a similar fashion and you should see the way they attack him for slinging mud to sell his own brand.

 

[Karda]

Thanks for posting these Fugglesby, intersting viewing.

It's a shame that some folks felt the need to inject poison into the thread.

People are talking like kukri have only ever been made a certain way with certain materials, that's nonsense. Any mechanisation is a deviation from "traditional" production and all current producers of kukri are mechanised to a degree. What does another change in steel matter? Antique kukri have been made from bloomery steel, pattern welded damascus, wootz, tightly laminated steel, steel loosely laminated from odds and ends, as well as modern mono, Railway tracks and truck leaf springs. Different steels for different times doesn't mean it's not "authentic".

As for the accusations of copying, the "gelbu special" looks like any other "Chainpure" or "Chitlang" and is a style that has been around since at least the 60's (I have seen vintage pieces dated to this period) so that's an unfair accusation. The other strange looking blades are not familiar to me so I won't comment.

A lot of people on this forum have been drinking the HI cool aid and think that if it's not HI it's "fake" (What is that supposed to mean?) or inferior. I know another producer of kukri that sneers at HI in a similar fashion and you should see the way they attack him for slinging mud to sell his own brand.

Noones slinging mud here, it's a matter of truthfulness.
Don't for a second think that the changing of quench and steels is innovative or miraculously going to provide for any better of a product that has already been made. I could outline what does, but it is a trade secret.
If you look at the OP's posting on other forums, he slings just a much mud around albeit in a passive aggressive manner.
I've never stated that HI is the be all, end all of khukuri. The various makers all have a market share and hold them well.
If Fugglesby had not decided to call me out in the manner he did here, and let the sleeping dog lie, we would not be having the conversations that happened, now would we?

 

[sams]

It is obvious Khukuri House and Himilayan Imports compete for the American market. I own various makes. I prefer the old traditional made khukuries. One of my favorites is from India. It is natural to mimic or copy other makers if it is good and profitable. Blackjack copied Randall made knives and even had a display plaque identical to the one in the Randall shop. What I think is proper is to acknoledge a "copy"; just polite and ethical. You can see KH is similar, copied, in the two bowies and and few other models made by HI. To deny this pi**es me off.

I have no dog in this but common sense should prevail. I like the optional Kydex sheaths from KH and modern advances should be encouraged, I enjoyed reading the develpments . I don't like it when the obvious ignored. The old vs new can exisit side by side. I think this is the point of this post and the forum provides the ability to express your thoughts.

 

[trentu]

It started out a pretty cool thread until loyalists of their favorite makers slammed the poor guys thread up with some hate. It was cool you got a chance to meet some Kami's and make some knives. Thanks for posting the videos.

 

[Karda]

It is obvious Khukuri House and Himilayan Imports compete for the American market. I own various makes. I prefer the old traditional made khukuries. One of my favorites is from India. It is natural to mimic or copy other makers if it is good and profitable. Blackjack copied Randall made knives and even had a display plaque identical to the one in the Randall shop. What I think is proper is to acknoledge a "copy"; just polite and ethical. You can see KH is similar, copied, in the two bowies and and few other models made by HI. To deny this pi**es me off.

I have no dog in this but common sense should prevail. I like the optional Kydex sheaths from KH and modern advances should be encouraged, I enjoyed reading the develpments . I don't like it when the obvious ignored. The old vs new can exisit side by side. I think this is the point of this post and the forum provides the ability to express your thoughts.

I have to agree with you sams.
The proper thing to do is be responsible and acknowledge design influences to their originators. Also, it is every designers/manufacturers/knifemakers responsibility to do so, but also to look around to see if something you are making is a blatant copy of someone elses design and choose not to move forward in making it if it happens to be a copy. Especially in KHHI's case where they are pursuing legal action against others (EGKH) for stealing their designs.
Himalayan Imports works very hard to not copy others designs and innovate on their own. User submitted designs or not, KHHI should never have allowed such blatant copies to be produced. Fugglesby should've been aware that his design was influenced by the Busse design and given credit.