An incorrect description in an Ebay auction

Chris Reeve Knives

Chris Reeve Knives

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All,

I'd like to call attention to an Ebay auction for a Green Beret knife with erroneous information in the description. The claim in the description is that the knife being auctioned is a rare, serialized Green Beret knife, being engraved with the characters "Y.C. 003". In truth, the Green Beret model knives, which are offered to the general public, are not serialized. Only the Yarborough model knives, available exclusively to U.S. Army Special Forces soldiers, are serialized.

While the knife in the auction is indeed a Green Beret model knife manufactured by CRK, it is simply one that we engraved at the request of a customer, in the same fashion that we personalize knives for many customers (usually with their names engraved). The auction is entitled "RARE Engraved Chris Reeve Green Beret Knife".

The seller has been notified of the description error, and we expect a description change to eliminate any false advertising.

Best regards,

Dave
 
Hi Dave,

Are you saying that i could order a Green Beret knife from your company numbered similiar or engraved with anything of my choice ? or is this knife only 1 of 4 that was ever numbered regardless of the reason why it was engraved and numbered.

It does not state in the listing that all Green Beret knives are serialized it says that the knife for sale is 1 of 4 with a serial number, serial number meaning unique number assigned for identification which varies from its successor or predecessor by a fixed discrete integer value as this is what was requested by the customer, it is a serial number because it is engraved Y.C. 003 and before it came Y.C. 002 and after it Y.C. 004.

So what is your company stating ? are you saying you will engrave numbering on any Green Beret knife at a customers request, have other Green Beret knives been engraved in a similiar manner ?

It was my understanding that all Green Beret knives did not have anything stamped on them except the Reeve Harsey stamp are you saying there are other knives in circulation that are Green Beret that are engraved with other writing and stampings and you will do this at a customers request.

If this knife is only 1 of 4 Green Beret knives with numbering on the blade does this not make it rare and the description accurate ?

Is it not true that after these knives were made numbered 001 - 004 for a dealer your company realised the mistake they had made and have since revisited your engraving policy so that the Green Beret knife will never be engraved with any numbers again thus making these 4 knives a one off as stated in the listing, that the only similiar knife to the Green Beret that has ever been made by your company that is numbered is the Yarborough ?
 
Here is a photograph of the Yarborough and here is one of the Green Beret knife for sale, in what way is the Yarborough number a serial number and the Green Beret not ?
 
jeffmorpeth said:
Hi Dave,

Are you saying that i could order a Green Beret knife from your company numbered similiar or engraved with anything of my choice ? or is this knife only 1 of 4 that was ever numbered regardless of the reason why it was engraved and numbered.

It does not state in the listing that all Green Beret knives are serialized it says that the knife for sale is 1 of 4 with a serial number, serial number meaning unique number assigned for identification which varies from its successor or predecessor by a fixed discrete integer value as this is what was requested by the customer, it is a serial number because it is engraved Y.C. 003 and before it came Y.C. 002 and after it Y.C. 004.

So what is your company stating ? are you saying you will engrave numbering on any Green Beret knife at a customers request, have other Green Beret knives been engraved in a similiar manner ?

It was my understanding that all Green Beret knives did not have anything stamped on them except the Reeve Harsey stamp are you saying there are other knives in circulation that are Green Beret that are engraved with other writing and stampings and you will do this at a customers request.

If this knife is only 1 of 4 Green Beret knives with numbering on the blade does this not make it rare and the description accurate ?

Is it not true that after these knives were made numbered 001 - 004 for a dealer your company realised the mistake they had made and have since revisited your engraving policy so that the Green Beret knife will never be engraved with any numbers again thus making these 4 knives a one off as stated in the listing, that the only similiar knife to the Green Beret that has ever been made by your company that is numbered is the Yarborough ?
Click to expand...

jeffmorpeth,

The auction description is as follows:

************* start of auction description ****************

"For sale is a Chris Reeve Engraved Green Beret, this is one of only four Green Beret knives in the world that have a serial number and that will ever be available to the public every other Green Beret knife that has been made does not have a serial number except for the Special Forces Yarborough knife that was given only to Recruits that pass the Green Beret "Q" course.

An additional 987 Yarborough knives were sold through the JFK War Museum at Fort Bragg but only serving soldiers or retirees could order one of the 987 knives that were made and only if they could get an authorization letter from the military to say so, the knives were sold in sequence and are now all sold out and no other serial numbered knives will be produced for retail sales.

The Yarborough serial numbered knives will never come onto the civillian market for sale due to the following policy and restrictions for owners who recieved one.

* According to policy, the Yarborough Knife is a one-time presentation or one-time purchase item. Eligible soldiers or retirees are only authorized the issue or sale of one Yarborough Knife. If one is lost or destroyed, eligible personnel may request, accompanied by a sworn affidavit and any other supporting documents relative to the loss or destruction of the knife, a waiver.
* Soldiers or their estates are not authorized to sell them to third parties.
* Local commanders will establish policies for the wear and carrying of the Yarborough Knife consistent with operational requirements and local policies and laws.
* The knife cannot be purchased by family, friends or estates of Special Forces personnel.
* Knives are sold in sequence.

So here is your chance to own a very rare piece of military history, the Green Beret knife in this auction is number 3 of 4 made and is stamped with Y.C. 003 as seen in the pictures.

Here is some more information about the Yarborough and Green Beret knife.

The Yarborough Knife, a nearly 12.5-inch combat utility knife (seven inches of blade) produced by custom knife maker,William W. Harsey, was conceived during an informal dinner discussion between Lieutenant General William P. Yarborough and Lieutenant General Doug Brown.

Lieutenant General Yarborough wanted Special Forces soldiers to have a distinctive edged weapon as did its ancestors in World War II – the First Special Service Force with its V-42 and the OSS with the Fairbairn-Sykes Knife. In 2002, a program for issuance of knives to graduates of the US Army Special Forces Qualification Course was instituted. 987 knives were set aside for retail sale to former or current members of the US Army Special Forces.

The manufacturer of the knife is Chris Reeve Knives of Boise, Idaho, a company that has received several manufacturing quality awards. In June 2003, the Yarborough Knife earned Bill Harsey and Chris Reeve Knives Blade Magazine's 2003 Knife Collaboration of the Year Award. Non-serial numbers knives, to be known as "The Special Forces Knife" are available either through Chris Reeves Knives or Tactical and Survival Specialities, Inc.of Harrisburg, Virginia. Only serial number knives are known as "The Yarborough Knife."

The knife is in mint condition and has never been sharpened or stored in the sheath.

This is part of a collection of knives that i have recently purchased and that will be up for sale over the next month

Please email me with any questions.

************** End of auction description ***********
The desciption contains inaccuracies, but more significantly it is misleading to the seller's potential customers, including many of us as collectors (yes, I am a collector, and have purchased many CRK knives on ebay :) ). The issues I have with the description are as follows:
  • The knife is not "serialized" by any common definition in the knife industry. Serialization of knives is used by a manufacturer to denote the production sequence of a given product, or a special series of a product. This is not the case for the knife that's being auctioned.
  • The description of the actual situation is misleading. Much of the text implies that the knife is rare (including using "RARE" in the title, and the phrase "very rare piece of military history", which it is not), which targets CRK knife collectors. There is no doubt in my mind that if one of us were to acquire this knife as a collector piece, especially for the BIN price that's set, then subsequently learned of the actual knife history, that that collector would be sorely disappointed.
Indeed, these personalized knives marked Y.C. XXX knives have caused a lot of confusion for CRK collectors, and because of this, we will not be entertaining personalization like this in the future.

Best regards,

Dave
 
I think you will find that a serial number is what it is, check in a dictionary, i also disagree with your view that serial number denotes the production sequence of knives in the knife industry, you will find knifemakers from Gil Hibben to Bill Luckett among many many others who serialize knives but in no specific order for instance they will make number 7 before 3 and so on, for instance Gil Hibben made the Rambo III movie knife and a limited edition of 350, he never started making number 1 then 2 and so on, for example you could buy number 149 from him even though number 350 had already been made.

You are twisting the meaning of serial number to something that fits into your cause, not utilizing the word for what for it actually means.

A knife can be rare in all kind of ways and this one is rare because of a slip up at your factory and because 4 knives were engraved with numbers when they should not have been, it is your policy not to number these knives unless they are a Yarborough knife.

Including the word rare in the title is not misleading look up rare in the dictionary and you will find something along these lines
ie: Definition: not widely known; especially valued for its uncommonness; "a rare word"; "rare books".

So i would say that this knife is rare because out of all the Green Beret knives that have been manufactured there are only 4 with numbers stamped on the blade i do not see how you can disagree with this.

The fact remains that these knives should not have been in circulation in the first case if you are to believe your policy regarding the Yarborough.

If you are not happy with these knives in circulation then you should take them out of circulation this is within your power but to try and make out that the knife is being missold is incorrect because it is not.

The only part of the listing which should be removed is the part saying "very rare piece of military history" which could even be disputed that this is actually true being the only knives you manuactured in this style with numbers except for the highly regarded Yarborough knives which were supplied to the military.

Facts are facts.
 
Jeff-

Your auction is worded in such a way that would leave many potential buyers to believe that the knife is an ultra-rare one of four Yarborough when it is, in fact, a standard run Green Beret knife that was originally personalized for a customer with the initials "Y.C.". whether worded mistakenly or by design, it is incorrect information and not an appropriate means of hyping the knife.


methinks he doth protest too much and all that jazz.
 
How you or others interpret the listing is up to you, nowhere does it state that the knife is a Yarborough it clearly states that it is a Green Beret knife albeit engraved and numbered.
 
It seems that CRK is trying to keep people from confusing this custom ordered and engraved knife with an actual Yarborough that is issued to SF personel only.

BTW jeffmorpeth, despite what many other makers in this industry or others do, CRK does issue their numbered products in the order of manufacture, not by whim of buyer or seller.
 
Yes i understand what Chris Reeve is trying to say and i agree with it not being a Yarborough, and like i have said before nowhere does it state in the auction that it is a Yarborough, the knife is what it is and this is stated in the auction, it is compared to the Yarborough just like other sellers of Chris Reeve knives compare the Green Beret in their listings to the Yarborough the difference is the one in question is engraved and numbered and is only 1 of 4 made that was manufactured like this.
 
A predictable response, Jeff. It does state that it is a Green Beret knife and then goes on to mention, twice, that only Yarborough knives are serialized. So, the seller appears to be stating the truth solely for purposes of deniability and then goes on to offer just enough misguiding information in order to facillitate a mistaken belief among undiscerning collectors.

It seems that old refrain, "Caveat Emptor", is just as true now as it ever was. Jeff, how about this: edit the listing, do away with the hype that has very little to do with this knife, and clearly state that this knife is a Green Beret knife that was personally serialized for a buyer with the initials "Y.C". The knife is easily of a quality that allows it to stand on its own merits.

Then, you would not need to concern yourself with the chance that some of your bidders might mistakenly assume that this knife is something that it is not.
 
The fact remains that this is the only knife as well as 3 others made in this style by Chris Reeve that is numbered except the Yarborough.

This is stated in the auction and the information is correct and true.

There are six other Green Beret knives on the same auction site and they all use the word Yarborough in their listing this is commonly done and i do not see anyone else including Chris Reeve knives complaining and posting on this forum about every other Green Beret knife that is listed on that site.

As for Chris Reeve knives stating that Y.C. stood for the customers initials this is just pure specualtion as they did not have any contact with the person who ordered this knife as it was ordered by a dealer on behalf of a customer and from what i know as far as the customer was concerned the Y.C. to stand for Yarborough Custom even though this is not listed in the auction.

The knife in question is accurate to the facts, regardless of how you want to interpret it.
 
Jeff,

Your definition of "serial" is erroneous and sould probably be changed. "Rare" is misleading but technically "not inaccurate."

"Serial" means sequential, whether numerical or alphabetical or a combination of the two. If Hibben et al number their knives in such a manner, then their practice is technically either random or non-sequential, since they correspond to a pattern that is not universally or commonly understood, or to no pattern at all. Exceptions don't prove or make the rule. Otherwise, I can say that the non-repeating characters D-U-M-B-5-H-1-T are "serial."

As for "rare" vs. "unique" (or unusual): The difference is open to wide interpretation, but the former certainly implies a higher value (monetary or otherwise) associated with its status. The knife in question, objectively, is obviously not a factory defect or "seconds"; but neither is it analogous to mis-printed or -stamped currency that enters circulation before it can be destroyed. So in this case, "rare" is at the very least arguable; although the "eBay market" will give us some sense of whether that flies or not. I suppose we can say that it is "rare" is someone actually buys it; otherwise, it is simply unique or, perhaps most accurately, a "fluke" -- a chance happening or occurrence.

My two cents (i.e., nothing rare, all common knowledge),
Glen
 
As for the word serial and rare they mean what the dictionary terms say they mean not how you could interpret what they mean.

I have said all i have to say on this subject and i am not going to get into converstaions regarding what a word does or does not mean there are dictionaries out there for that and you should make use of them.
 
However you interpret the words you are doing collectors everywhere a disservice by risking misunderstandings
 
For the last time i am not interpreting anything it is people like you who are, i am using words within the definition of the dictionary and what i am stating is fact.

The only people who are doing a disservice is Chris Reeve Knives for putting knives like this into the public domain for civilians to buy in the first case.
 
Does it not bother you that there are six other people on that auction site saying that the "Green Beret" knife is also known as the Yarborough, in the numbered Green Beret knife auction that we are talking about there are no such claims.

The saying "clutching at straws" comes to mind.
 
Jeffmorepeth - I think it is wrong to write the post the way it is so as to facilitate, deliberately, someone's confusion so you can make a quick buck. Your reasoning that, in effect, "everyone else does it", only serves as further proof that you know you have crossed the moral and ethical line and need to look to the actions of others to justify your own because they cannot survive the harsh light of accountability dished up to you in this thread.

Swallow your pride, admit your greed, and move on with your life, but you are making yourself looks stupid with your further replies. Arguing with the maker of the knife as to its features and rarity is moronic.

You are on my list of sellers that I will not do business with under any circumstances. I am a lawyer and see people taken advantage of everyday by people just like you. Thanks for letting us know just what kind of person you are! We have been warned.

Rockbuster.
 
Who is exactly confused here, who is being mislead, it is people like you who are playing on words and if you are a lawyer then you have already admitted to us that you play with them more than most.

If i stated that the knife was a serial numbered Yarborough then i would be wrong in doing this, but saying that it is the only knife made in this style by Chris Reeve knives that is numbered except the Yarborough then there is nothing wrong with this as it is true.

Any person of intelligence can see this and you making out that any potential buyer would be so dumb as to think it was a Yarborough is misleading in itself and at best laughable.

If you are a lawyer then you are not a very good one if you cannot even look and understand the facts presented.
 
You keep saying that you are just stating the "facts." If you know anything about business or the conduct of business affairs, you have at least heard the expression that "facts can be misleading." You seem to have a problem understanding that facts can be misleading, even if the factual terms are not inaccurate, if presented in a certain order, with a certain greater or fewer quantity of words to distract and emphasize irrelevant data, or by using words with ambiguous meaning. roughedges already told you how to remove the misleading material - your morals are your guide.

Bottom line, you have posted a misleading ad and you seem to be perfectly happy with that. I guess you weren't taught morals growing up. Not your fault really, but it is your responsibility to have morals once you are grown up - guess you still have quite a ways to go. Hope you get there, but struggling against the process only makes it take longer and some never get there. They are usually called curmudgeons (not to denigrate any curmudgeons by comparing them to jeffmorpeth).

Rock
 
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