An interesting video of a female knifemaker

At the risk of being labeled another villain, my gut reaction to all this is pretty darn close to John Katt's.

I can't help but wonder if a big fatty 50 year old dude with a beard came in here posting knives exactly like that and asked, "What do y'all think of my work?!?" It would not get favorable responses.

But I realized I'm looking at this from the wrong angle. I could make about 37 of those rasp knives in the time it takes me to make one fighter the way I do things. So 1 fighter brings me $1300, or 37($450)= $16,650.

Yep...was definitely looking at this stuff from the wrong angle. :)
 
Nick You could probably do 74 using her method, There is no way this rasp has been through a stress relief cycle and then hardened in a forge, the teeth are far to crisp and the very fine machine marks would have been long gone with the first layer of scale

I think I will advertise on CL for a new girlfriend that is interested in blacksmithing....I have a plan ;0)

 
Like others have stated, her market is not our market. Her type of marketing works well for her in her market and is not indicative of a new trend. Remember, BS is the food of life in the NY art market. Could she get a table at the Blade show next to DHIII, Ben Seward, Lin Rhea, Stuart Branson, Nick or any of the others around here that regularly drop jaws and not feel like a complete fool? Who knows? I know how I'd feel if those were MY knives. But her path and most of ours will never cross. Which is fine. She is doing well for herself and I personally have no problem with that. But consider this. What about the young girls who see her succeeding in this interesting craft and view her as a role model and inspiration? This craft has a handful of gals but it is mostly a guy thing. It would be nice to see more women getting involved. They won't all be making artsy re-purposed farm tool knives. So in some people's eyes it may seem like she's ruining the market but she may be doing the craft a service in the long run.
 
NickWheeler said:
At the risk of being labeled another villain, my gut reaction to all this is pretty darn close to John Katt's.

I can't help but wonder if a big fatty 50 year old dude with a beard came in here posting knives exactly like that and asked, "What do y'all think of my work?!?" It would not get favorable responses.

But I realized I'm looking at this from the wrong angle. I could make about 37 of those rasp knives in the time it takes me to make one fighter the way I do things. So 1 fighter brings me $1300, or 37($450)= $16,650.

Yep...was definitely looking at this stuff from the wrong angle. :)
Click to expand...

No Nick, please do not change the way you look at it. It's your fighter I'd be after even though I know you probably couldn't just whip out a rasp type knife without putting the extreme attention to detail you put into all of your work - making it a $1300 rasp knife.

I think everything you said above is true and you made your opinion known (in your first post) in a reasonable way. I just don't think it's necessary to take the extra steps some have of trying to kick someone to the curb because one doesn't like one's work or the success they might be having. Ms. Miller is pretty much in a different world from the BladeForums world and was brought here by someone else. She is not trying to display or sell here. She didn't ask anybody here to critique her work. Of all of instances, where new, inexperienced makers have asked for critique here, as long as they were honest and had a transparent agenda, the responding pros were objective, straight forward, and without negativity in offering their opinions and help. Yes, if I deliberately showed up here with an ego and a knife that others might think isn't up to their standards and stated that I wanted $450 for it things might get a bit heated. I just don't think this is the case.

I certainly and truly appreciate the amount of time and effort it took to get where you are and the amount of focused time and effort it takes to produce one of your knives. One of these days, I hope to be the proud owner of one of your fighters. From your point of view, I can easily see where a subject like this could be rather agitating.

OK. Way too much drivally slack jaw from me today. I'll go away now. Mike
 
I don't know why anyone who makes knives and reads this forum would care that the young lady makes good money selling her knives. In her video she says that she started selling at flea markets and is 6 to 8 weeks behind on her knife orders. When I am 6 to 8 weeks behind it means that I am working on only a couple knives. I can't imagine that she sells a ton of knives but maybe I am wrong. She is very cute and personable and that might be the main reason she sells those knives. I certainly do not think that she is going to capture any of my customers with that style and quality of knife. I wish her well as she seems to be a nice person and I do not want to make any negative comments that she might eventually see. I can understand some of the comments so far though from knife makers who put in years of hard work to make he best knives that they are capable of at a very reasonable price. You have nothing to worry about in my opinion. Lawnmower blades, files, truck springs, and railroad spikes were only interesting the first time they were used and no one truly believed they were very special. I try not to offend anyone but that is difficult in today's world. Larry Lehman
 
The thing is, when you create videos like she did, you open yourself up for criticism. I'm conflicted about how I feel about it. On one hand I think it's cool that a woman is making knives. On the other, the phrases like: "It's just a complicated, simple tool." and "The intention in cutting is to give your energy away." Smack of hipster and hipsters are so damn annoying. Also, she says that she harvests the wood from a family farm. The piece she was cutting didn't look stabilized.

So we have knives that don't appear heat treated, with unstabilized wood, a camera crew, and a marketable image she's created for herself(see 58 seconds into the video). Not to mention she's grinding in bevels with a bench grinder in a wife beater and cutting profiles with a plasma cutter. This leads me to come to the same conclusion as NC Biker. This seems to be more on art focused than hard use.

Lets be honest, if a guy came in here stating the above processes he would be criticized. The whole white knight routine is understandable but to cottle someone because they're a woman isn't helpful. That being said, I think constructive criticism is best if possible.

Now, check these ladies knives out:

http://draperknives.info/Knife_Gallery.php

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/harumi/knives/contents.html

http://www.heavinforge.co.za/html/kevin___heather.html

http://www.knifeworld.com/tfetolosuebe.html
 
12345678910 said:
If I was a real "high end maker" (as determined by my peers); that would really get my goat.
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I proudly consider myself a "high-end knifemaker" with a lot to learn (whatever that means; I made up my own definition). No one gave me "permission" to declare that, and I never asked for permission. I feel I've earned that the hard way, and I'm gonna continue to earn it.

Some of my peers agree; I'm sure plenny folks disagree. So what? That's their decision. Either way it's not gonna stop me from doing what I do and trying to get better at it. Haters hate, and makers make. The easiest and weakest thing in the world is to sit around cuttin' another person down.

Again, I am not one bit offended by that maker. She's welcome in my shop or at the table next to mine anytime! If nothing else, I owe that not just to her, but to the many folks who got me on the right track and continue to help me learn. Pay it forward, challenge each other, do your very best, compete openly. :thumbup:

Don Hanson III said:
Some of you guys are something else? I see nothing wrong with her, the knives, or the prices.
She makes rustic knives and said so. Nothing wrong with using files, or rasps, if you know what you're doin...
These are entry level prices in the custom knife world (if you want to make money). The back log is fairly short also.
No doubt she is introducing new folks to custom knives and some of those folks will likely gravitate to higher end stuff... All good in my book! :cool:
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Rock on. THAT is the open-hearted attitude from the "established big name makers" and founders of various societies and guilds that sincerely encouraged me to learn and work and find my own way. Not to mention several cats that are not "old-school" at all. I continue to be amazed by how many world-famous "rock-stars" in the knife biz have been happy to encourage me... even though they don't know me from Adam. I'm just a no-name goofus who asked them some questions.

90% of those "old school guys" or "new school guys" or famous manufactures or designers ever told me to buzz off or do it their way... they all shared as much as I was willing to listen to, and challenged/encouraged me to go ahead and do my own thing. :thumbup:
 
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Also... the fact is that most gun-people and NRA members and hunters and farmers and survivalist/homestead types spend very little on knives... what they do spend is mostly spent on factory-made stuff at WallyWorld or Bass Pro Shops/Cabela's and online discount houses, etc.

Whether you want to have dinner with them or not, trendy city-folks and hipsters and lumbersexuals and rich liberals and subdivision soccer moms buy handmade knives, too. If you choose to ignore that simple fact... by all means, send 'em my way. ;)
 
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While I tend to agree that her products do not meet the standards most of us hold ourselves to, I love what she is doing and the market she has developed. Consider that maybe some of her customers may decide if a semi-custom is good a fancy full custom will be better. The ones who do not wouldn't have anyway.
But I realized I'm looking at this from the wrong angle.
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Nick, you don't need to make rasp knives, just feature Angie more in your shop videos. ;) Jess
 
JG Custom Metal Works said:
The thing is, when you create videos like she did, you open yourself up for criticism. I'm conflicted about how I feel about it. On one hand I think it's cool that a woman is making knives. On the other, the phrases like: "It's just a complicated, simple tool." and "The intention in cutting is to give your energy away." Smack of hipster and hipsters are so damn annoying. Also, she says that she harvests the wood from a family farm. The piece she was cutting didn't look stabilized.

So we have knives that don't appear heat treated, with unstabilized wood, a camera crew, and a marketable image she's created for herself(see 58 seconds into the video). Not to mention she's grinding in bevels with a bench grinder in a wife beater and cutting profiles with a plasma cutter. This leads me to come to the same conclusion as NC Biker. This seems to be more on art focused than hard use.

Lets be honest, if a guy came in here stating the above processes he would be criticized. The whole white knight routine is understandable but to coddle someone because they're a woman isn't helpful. That being said, I think constructive criticism is best if possible.

Now, check these ladies knives out:

http://draperknives.info/Knife_Gallery.php

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/harumi/knives/contents.html

http://www.heavinforge.co.za/html/kevin___heather.html

http://www.knifeworld.com/tfetolosuebe.html
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Haley DesRosiers
http://www.fototime.com/DC0D8E7E0084453/orig.jpg
http://www.alaskablades.com/images/phocagallery/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_haley desrosiers js.jpg
http://www.bladegallery.com/pics/92194_1_n.jpg

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Dee Hedges
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/784631-Dee-Hedges-Gold-Blade


I'm not against her selling knives, I hate the marketiing of it all



To me this smacks of the whole, triple quench and torch HTing even though you own a kiln typr of thing.
Why go out of your way to make them look rough?
Why not avail yourself of all the technoogy available to make it the best it could be ?

W1 from files could be good steel, but

Torch cut profiles and holes with a huge HAZ and no apparent re-HT
Thick as bricks.
Handle s with bad contouring, that plain and simple needs more sanding.


It's still possible to do that "rustic forged style" with good quality knives.


I do really like that spalted wood she gets, very pretty.
 
Some on this thread sound like they may be having a hard time selling knives maybe its time to regroup . I think just because its not what we like doesn't always
make it wrong. It sounds to me she's doing something right. She is selling knives.
I think as as a maker only I can hurt my own business not what another maker may be doing.

Cliff
 
Cliff Parker said:
Some on this thread sound like they may be having a hard time selling knives maybe its time to regroup . I think just because its not what we like doesn't always
make it wrong. It sounds to me she's doing something right. She is selling knives.
I think as as a maker only I can hurt my own business not what another maker may be doing.

Cliff
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Well said, Cliff! :cool:
 
I thought Paul's OP alluded to the notion of, "Isn't it a bit surprising that knives of this quality are selling for these prices?"

I also thought the obvious answer was yes.

Somehow that has apparently put me in a camp that is threatened by her, can't sell my own knives, is closed hearted and closed minded, and hopes that she will get run over by an out of control city bus. :rolleyes:

I don't feel any ill will toward her in the least. If people are willing to pay those prices for her knives, then in the grand scheme of things, they are worth their price. I feel absolutely zero worry of competition or threat from her and what she's doing. She would not be unwelcome in my shop, nor are these words anything I would not want her to see or feel bad about if she did.

She is a knifemaker and that gives her something in common with me. She has a passion for what she's doing, and that's great! But that doesn't change the fact that the knives are very crude and could be greatly improved. Some folks equate handmade with homemade, and those folks want crude. If that's what they like, it's what they like. It's not my job to change their mind or condemn her for providing it.

But this all goes back to the simple notion of Paul's OP... is it a bit surprising to see this kind of demand for this work at these prices? I still say yes.

I'm also aware that everything is relative. A whole lot of the guys I work with make over $100k a year, and they think it's insane what my knives sell for. They think I've tapped into some sort of well filled with people that have more money than they have sense. As they drive their $60,000 trucks in to work. ;) People are willing to put their money on the line for what they want. As long as nobody's getting hurt, who am I to judge? I'm not.

But I am a knife maker and know what it takes to make a knife like the horse rasp butter knife. Being surprised that it's fetching $450 seems like a fair reaction to me, without it also painting me as a threatened, judgmental, hateful...etc. knife maker.
 
I think the trouble here is that we are mixing 2 different things. Her knifemaking and her marketing.
Her marketing is great, her knifemaking is nothing special. That's about the extent of how this is of interest for me. :yawn:

I'd like much more to see this kind of interest in the craft itself with good WIPS and advanced questions on here. ;)
 
Funny stuff here, and lots of hurt feelings and lots of "reasons" for all that. Quite frankly, some of y'all sound kinda like whiny little schoolgirls bitchin' that you got cut from the cheerleading squad because, "the fashion changed." Really?

No, the fashion didn't change, it just expanded to new markets. Your niche is still there, and doing quite well. Getting uptight because you couldn't keep it together in YOUR niche, doesn't make any other niche less legitimate.

That's pretty sad, because A) you're way better than that and B) this chick/her niche affects your target market exactly NOT AT ALL. :rolleyes: Stop making excuses and being mad because someone else is successful. If you can't maintain what you do, change what you do. That's Business 101.

I know several makers, including myself, who are booked solid making the knives they enjoy making, and wouldn't accept a corporate paycheck if it was handed to 'em.. It's not rocket science.

Here's where the rubber meets the road for me: I ain't mad at this chick and I ain't mad at top-tier ABS mastersmiths and I ain't mad at Cold Steel or Strider and I ain't mad at cheep-azz Bud-K importers and Paki-dumbasskiss flea-market nitwits either. I happen to serve a different market from all that. If there's overlap, I'll be happy to serve that as well.

Get over yourself.
 
well, I've been checking this thread out over the last few days, and trying to decide whether to post or not. Also checked out Ms Miller's site and links.

Having said that, perhaps I can add my perspective on the whole thing.

Since I live in CT, and did my surgical training in NYC I'm familiar with the "Brooklyn ethos" for lack of a better term. Her area of Brooklyn in a gentrified, very "arty" area, popular with young "hipsters" for lack of a better term. I generalize of course, but many of the folks there are serious "foodies" but of the genre who want" locally sourced" food and the like.

"Crafts" are also blooming in that area - leatherwork, handmade clothing (hemp too !), pottery - you get the picture.

Ms Miller appears to be genuinely involved in that lifestyle, and her knives AND THEIR STORY fit the vibe of the area. "Flea markets" in that area are NOT what you and I think of as flea markets, but more like trendy craft shows for the most part. As such, I think the prices she charges "fit" the prevailing trend there, and it DOES seem she is selling them.

It's kinda like the old "art vs function" argument - you know, "Any idiot could throw paint at the wall like Jackson Pollack - how come his painting is 30 million!!!"

art is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it

For the folks who are questioning the "worthiness" of the knives themselves - I see where you are coming from. Based on the "standards" of what we here on BF consider excellence....well, clearly her knives would not fit that definition. I suspect, based on her website et al, that she really believes she has been given a good background in making knives and that she thinks she is making a "good knife". I do NOT think she is "scamming", nor is she aware that what she is doing has major limitations. If she had a different mentor, or had the opportunity to meet a "real" knife maker - well, perhaps she would be doing things differently. That doesn't make what she is doing "wrong ".

Sure, she is a bit "hipster" and sure, she is easy on the eyes and that doesn't hurt. Also, "marketing" like she does is the way you do it in the NYC market - so she's being smart about that. I agree with DH3 - don't be a "hata"

Sorry for droning on so long - just a couple more thoughts

I'm a collector as most of you know, but some of you know I'm also an amateur maker - so I think I have a perspective from both sides. I don't sell knives, I give them to friends, but honestly, I'm pretty sure my knives are "better" than Chelsea's...as a result of what I've learned here and from very generous knife makers - you know who you are:D

I would NOT purchase one of her knives - they just don't strike my particular fancy, regardless of cost. I would (and HAVE) purchased knives from several of the makers who've posted here...and would do so again ! That's because I love what they do and how they do it.

I don't think Chelsea harms any of the knife makers here, and agree 100% that ANYONE who brings "new" people into the knife world is helping all of us.

we need a bigger PIE to split for everyone and not be arguing about who has a bigger piece of a smaller pie.

my parting shot:

Nick, there is NO way you would make 37 or 74 ...or 1 rasp knife like that....because we all know how it would end up.....you would individually polish each rasp tooth to 1000 grit, micrometer them to make sure each tooth is exactly the same height.....and spend 100 hrs on the knife :D:p

Now, all of you back to your respective corners and start making knives :thumbup:

Bill Flynn
 
james terrio said:
Funny stuff here, and lots of hurt feelings and lots of "reasons" for all that. Quite frankly, some of y'all sound kinda like whiny little schoolgirls bitchin' that you got cut from the cheerleading squad because, "the fashion changed." Really?

No, the fashion didn't change, it just expanded to new markets. Your niche is still there, and doing quite well. Getting uptight because you couldn't keep it together in YOUR niche, doesn't make any other niche less legitimate.

That's pretty sad, because A) you're way better than that and B) this chick/her niche affects your target market exactly NOT AT ALL. :rolleyes: Stop making excuses and being mad because someone else is successful. If you can't maintain what you do, change what you do. That's Business 101.

I know several makers, including myself, who are booked solid making the knives they enjoy making, and wouldn't accept a corporate paycheck if it was handed to 'em.. It's not rocket science.

Here's where the rubber meets the road for me: I ain't mad at this chick and I ain't mad at top-tier ABS mastersmiths and I ain't mad at Cold Steel or Strider and I ain't mad at cheep-azz Bud-K importers and Paki-dumbasskiss flea-market nitwits either. I happen to serve a different market from all that. If there's overlap, I'll be happy to serve that as well.

Get over yourself.
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So who is that directed toward James???
 
BTW - I think we should all cool off a little and remember that we are NOT discussing each other....

as luck would have it, I am watching HGTV with my wife and "Ellen's design challenge" or something like that in on

if you want to see what I meant about "trendy" stuff - just tune in now. Oh, and they have a female blacksmith on too!!!

not as cute as Ms Miller, but.....

Bill
 
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