An open letter to CRKT

Hi Mario,

Great post. One thing everyone should note: he knows what he's doing, therefore the LAWKS is working backwards. Why? Because he doesn't have his thumb up behind it...he's using some sort of Asian-derived grip versus the "Saber".

Mario, one big question is: have you tried a REKAT Carnivore yet? It's a direct "family relative" to the KFF, with similar ergonomics and blade shape, but lighter and with far better steel in the blade plus a lock every bit as good as the Axis (except non-ambi release).

It's also over twice the price, but...same ballpark as the Benchmade.

If the KFF got an improved lockwork, it might slightly impact REKAT Carny sales but not too much. If someone can afford the REKAT and understands how much better the enhanced D2 tool steel blade is over the AUS6 in a KFF is, and how much lighter the G10 grips are going to make the REKAT, they'll go with the higher end if possible.

One more detail: you don't list your home state - doing so is a good idea because then we'd know what your legal limits are for carry. If you're in California or Texas you might want to consider the REKAT Sifu
biggrin.gif
. It's the absolute king of the combat folders today, bar none, end of discussion
biggrin.gif
. At least until Darrel starts building 7" blade Madder Maxs.

See also:
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/blades.html

Jim
 
With all due respect,it`s not a Williams& Henry Axis Lock[nor is it a William Henry knife],it is a ;

McHenry and Williams Axis Lock

US Patent#5737841

Thank you,

William James McHenry

Co-inventor of the Axis Lock[along with Jason Williams]
 
Has anyone put thought into installing a simple leaf spring on the LAWKS so its rotating lever engaged automatically when the knife was opened?

This might give the same "automatic" advantage seen in the AXIS and Bolt-Action locks.

Of course, I don't know if this would violate any existing patent.

------------------

Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Thanks for clearing that up for me Mr. McHenry.For the longest time I have been calling my 710 a McWillyOHenryAxis.
You learn something new everyday..
BTW I think your lock is the greatest thing going.Keep up the good work.
Axis rules!
troy
 
Tom, that's not a crazy idea
smile.gif
. The problem would be the rather complex unlock sequence
biggrin.gif
.

Think about it - you'd have to hold the LAWKS back while un-tripping the main linerlock. With the LAWKS control up on the spine on the opposite side of the liner release, that could get hinky...remember, while you're doing all that, the blade is about to be released to swing closed on various and sundry digits.

I can think of one safe way to handle such a release though: grab the blade tightly with the off-hand to control it, and then trip both standard-location LAWKS and liner release in a "pinching motion" with the right hand, forefinger on LAWKS and thumb on liner. You wouldn't have a firm hold on the body of the knife, hence the need to grab the blade. (scratches head) Would that work?

Ponderponderponder...you could hold the grip with the blade pointed away from you, edge up, curl your forefinger around and under the LAWKS and "trigger it" while tripping the liner with your thumb. THAT would work. But detailed instructions would have to ship with each knife...and CRKT might have issues with shipping a knife that needed special, careful methods to unlock.

However...if you're gonna do a springloaded LAWKS, why leave the LAWKS control up on the spine? Why not put it down near the liner release, so that a single thumb motion can trip a relatively small LAWKS release and then slide straight over to the liner release?

Hmmmm. Problem is, if you left the release right there, unless the grip shape is re-thought you'll untrip the LAWKS release as your forefinger goes forward from the impact of a hard stab, and now we're back to square one.

Two solutions to that:

1) Redesign the grip so that the linerlock release is nowhere near the forefinger. Boker does this on some of their modest size 3.5" blade range pieces...Steve Ryan does it on megafolders like the Biohazard but that's not the size range possible in a $50 knife.

2) Design the grip specifically for use with the three rearmost fingers firmly clenched and the "trigger finger" relaxed (and hence off of the LAWKS release). That's a training issue; that grip is used in most of the FMAs. But...the average buyer of a $50 knife isn't going to spend time in an Escrima dojo.

I suspect the above complexities are why we haven't seen a spring on a LAWKS yet. It might be solvable though...

Jim
 
Personally, my biggest gripe with C.R.K.T. is their lefty-hostile designs. Even their fixed blades are unsuited for lefties because of the way their sheaths are designed. And that just plain sucks! It shouldn't be too difficult to design ambidextrous sheaths... Other companies have pulled it off after all. (And I do like the idea of four-way pocket clips. Reversible clips for lefties would be a dream come true!)

------------------
Tony S.

Just visiting this planet
 
Jim:

Yeah, they'd probably have to move the postion of the little knob. Too bad someone can't figure out a release like the one on Glock pistols. You know, a lever within a lever. The lock can't close until your thumb pushes on the little lever (inset) so the big lever (liner-lock) can move.

But, if they put a spring actuated button slider in the slot of the liner-lock that slid in a slot in the liner lock and all you had to do was slide the button back to close the lock.......

WAIT! Anybody here a Patent Attorney?
biggrin.gif


------------------

Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Jim - - Check out the new CRKT Blade Lock mechanism. I just had a chance to handle it at the ECCK Show. Seems pretty slick, but might be a bit slow. I'll withhold judgement until I pick one up and really get a chance to play with it.

Dick
 
CRKT has pics up of the first model with this new lock here, plus a minimal description:

http://www.crkt.com/bladlock.html

Hmmmm. This first attempt is more of a "gent's folder" than any sort of fighter.

The advantage is that under no possible circumstances could this thing be described as a "gravity knife". California is safe in that area, but some Texas courts have apparantly been getting hinky, and the issue sometimes crops up elsewhere.

We all know CRKT would have particular reason to be alert to that issue.

I'm not willing to condemn it as the basis for a defensive knife lock without personal testing
smile.gif
. I'm concerned it might be slow, but as long as thumb pressure isn't needed on the stud all the way through the blade travel, it might be OK.

List is $80 for this initial 3.5" version.

On another front, CRKT teamed up with Steve Ryan of "Biohazard" fame
smile.gif
to make the "model Seven":

http://www.crkt.com/ryansevn.html

This piece uses the current KFF type of lockwork (at least for now), but with a classic Ryan twist: the forefinger position is set up to take your finger flesh away from the linerlock release. Ryan did the same on the Biohazard, giving that piece one of the best linerlocks ever.

The grip also seems to be set up for an "FMA" type hold. If so, and if that lock release has been isolated from the forefinger as I suspect, this may be a better overall defensive knife than the KFF. Using a "cut-dominant" defensive style and the forefinger well away from the liner release, this may be fight-functional even if the LAWKS never gets engaged and/or it slips backwards over the course of an engagement. I plan on pointing this piece out on Donna's FMA forum and see if anybody there is interested in reviewing it from an FMA-dominated perspective.

Unlike the KFF, the tip is relatively high. I'd want to test it first, but it appears that on a stab if need be, you could flip the tip upwards a bit and make sure any stress gets thrown against the spine versus the lock. It might even be possible to give the LAWKS lever a final tweak with the web of the thumb? That trick might vary with hand size, can't be sure just from pics but it seems possible.

List price is $60 - the large KFF is $65 list (and only 1/4th" longer) so the Seven might be available on the street down in the $40-$45 range.

Pending testing, the Seven may prove a better choice than the KFF. Regardless, it emphasizes what I've been saying all along: prodding CRKT is worthwhile because they're REALLY trying!

One more thing: the Seven could be turned in a KILLER Muskrat!
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif
biggrin.gif
The shape and size are just perfect as the basis for a double-ended freakshow
smile.gif
.

Jim
 
I realize the importance and need for a strong lock on a folder, but, how many BF members or friends, relatives, acquaintances, etc., were in a knife fight in the last few days, months, years, in fact, their entire life. One probably has a better chance of getting killed in a car accident than getting killed or hurt in a knife fight, unless of course, one goes out looking for a fight in a bad part of town. Probably a bigger reason for a strong lock is the prevention of having the knife close on your fingers while the knife is being used for utility purposes.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kutch133:
I realize the importance and need for a strong lock on a folder, but, how many BF members or friends, relatives, acquaintances, etc., were in a knife fight in the last few days, months, years, in fact, their entire life. One probably has a better chance of getting killed in a car accident than getting killed or hurt in a knife fight, unless of course, one goes out looking for a fight in a bad part of town. Probably a bigger reason for a strong lock is the prevention of having the knife close on your fingers while the knife is being used for utility purposes.</font>
Click to expand...

Note that having a strong lock definitely -- definitely -- does not guarantee that you'll have a reliable lock. A strong lock won't prevent the lock from closing on your fingers, in either defensive or utility use. A reliable lock will!
 
When I said strong lock, I meant reliable, bulletproof, safe, vaultlike, or any other adjective that conveys or expresses what is desireable in lock on a folding knife: obtaining the lowest degree of probability of failure. Thanks, Joe for correcting me on my ommission.
 
Kutch, some of us make a habit of never walking about in public unarmed. We believe it's stupid, and plausibly immoral. To dismiss us as "looking for trouble" is both inaccurate and an insult.

At issue in this thread is how we can get an inexpensive defensive blade that's reliable in a fight. Current CRKTs, esp. the KFF and quite possibly the new Seven, are good but could do with a better lock.

Having absolute faith in your equipment helps achieve a visible manifestation of confidence that makes an assailant more likely to rabbit. I can tell you that from personal experience, having relied on defensive cutlery twice in over 18 years of daily carry, both incidents ending with criminals leaving and no blood on my blades.

A result I'm more than happy with.

Jim
 
Jim, I searched up Blackie Collins' patent for a 'Bolt operated locking mechanism for a folding knife', issued in 1992. The patent number is US#5,111,581.

He still has more than eight years to exploit this invention. Any manufacturer who wanted to use the bolt-action mechanism would need to make business arrangement with Mr. Collins or be subject to legal action. The rights to this invention has not been assigned (sold) to any business. Anyone wanting to use the bolt-action mechanism would have to license the right to use it.

I also discovered that Mr. McHenry and Mr. Williams were granted a new patent in 2000 for the axis lock mechanism, this time for folding Tools, which will extend their rights to all sorts of implements as well as knives. Smart move on their part.
smile.gif


Paracelsus

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 03-10-2001).]
 
Jim,

You are correct- I never use a saber grip with small guardless blades. Anyone with any significant knifefighting experience will tell you that using a saber grip with a small folder or fixed blade seriously compromises your grip, leaving you much more vulnerable to disarms(accidental as well as purposeful). Even Bob Kasper, the designer of the KFF and several terrific small tactical fixed blades, in a series of recent articles in Tactical Knives admits that he was wrong to advocate and teach the saber grip in the past. Kasper now strongly recommends using a full hammer grip where the thumb is closed over the index and middle fingers.

If any of you simply must keep your thumb extended in order to target accurately, you are far better off using a straight razor style grip where you press the thumb along the flat of the blade. This is a much more secure grip than the saber. Just remember, however, that good knifefighters are just looking for you to expose your thumb so that they can cut it off and completely disable your blade hand. Just another reason to keep your thumb safely hidden in a hammer grip if you aren't using a fully guarded bowie, dagger, or sword
smile.gif
.

As far as the Carnivour goes, I've had a custom talonite Carnivour on order with Rob Simonich for over a year and no sign of it yet. Hopefully I'll get to hold it once before I die
wink.gif
.

I live in Massachusetts, so 4.0" is the legal blade length limit for me. I guess its time to flesh out my profile a little. I haven't looked at it since I initially registered with BFs.

Since my last post, I've had an opportunity to read CRKT's blurb on the BladeLock. While it sounds as if it might be very secure, I have to agree with several people's comments that it would appear to be way too slow for use in a tactical folder where one must be able to draw, open, and bring the blade to target with lightening speed. This is the enormous advantage of the McHenry and Williams Axis Lock and the REKAT Rolling Lock- you just flick the blade open as you draw, and the ultra secure lock engages automatically. One foolproof step. That's what you need when the sh*t is hitting the fan.

Finally, I just want to say how delighted I am, Mr. McHenry, to hear your 'voice' on the Forums, even if it was only to set everyone straight as to the proper provenance of the Axis Lock. Bladeplayers all over the world are indebted to you and Mr. Williams for your Axis Lock- truly a great step forward in the science of folders. I'm sure that I speak for all of us when I say that we would be delighted to hear about and see pics of your latest designs.

Mario




------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-10-2001).]
 
Good points Jim. However the LAWKS system does seem fairly solid to me. I have no problems with it as I use it for a thumb rest when practicing with this knife. I think if you are critical of CRKT, how about other makers like Microtech (the great LCC uses a liner lock...) et al?

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Founding president and member number 1! Wana join?
 
General, I started this thread to try and prod CRKT in a better direction
smile.gif
. I personally would not rely on most linerlocks for defense; I've seen a few good ones though.

Without handling an LCC, I'm reluctant to comment. We've recieved lots of failure reports on the AlMar SERE recently, and that's another high-end linerlock. The two best linerlocks I've every seen both rely on positioning the liner tab away from any possible contact with the forefinger because forefinger flesh on a hard squeeze can disengage the lock. Some of Boker's better folders use a carefully positioned release, and Steve Ryan does it, which is why I'm impressed that CRKT is now building a production Ryan.

All THAT said, I rely on a Sifu with the rolling lock as daily defensive carry. And I *really* think Gaucho is gonna like the Carnivore when he finally scores the extra-fancy version he's got on order
smile.gif
.

The grip you're using, with the thumb behind the LAWKS tab, has the following problems:

1) As Gaucho says, it's sitting out in the open where it could get cut off.

2) On a hard-target stab, if the tip "hangs up" on something solid you're going to get a nasty "stubbed toe" effect on the end of your thumb, and you could also break your thumb if the knife rolls up and back on you.

3) Your grip lacks flexibility; if your wrist is grabbed you can't snake your tip or cutting edge back up and at the assailant's arm while side-stepping to the outside away from his blade while cutting inwards across his wrist. You CAN get the same effect by dropping your elbow and squatting but it'll be slower without the increased range of wrist motion in a grip like what Gaucho and I use.

In an FMA-derived blade-forward grip, all of the grip strength happens in the rearmost three fingers. Some people relax the thumb and forefinger so completely that they're no longer touching the knife, and they'll do grabs with the thumb in mid-fight. Control goes down a bit with such a grip (in my experience), but power and speed go way up. As a bonus, you can take a cut to your knife hand that involves the thumb and/or forefinger (which are towards the enemy and more vulnerable) and keep fighting with the protected rearwards fingers! Not something you PLAN on, but worth having as a last-ditch.

With your grip, with both power and control dominated by the thumb and forefinger, a hit there will probably disarm you.

And as you can see, once you abandon the "Saber grip" you're using, the security of the LAWKS device unfortunately goes down. That in turn is our beef with the LAWKS.

Jim
 
Jim,

You are absolutely right- gripping power arises in the last three fingers of the hand.

The thumb and forefinger are designed to facilitate the fine pincer grasp that one needs to perform delicate motor tasks. The last three fingers of the hand, in contrast, are designed for grip strength and alignment. Because of this anatomical fact, when holding a knife, one should ideally focus the power of one's grip in the pinky, ring, and middle fingers, leaving the forefinger and thumb looser. This will give you the most grip strength, best alignment of the blade tip with respect to your hand, and greatest maneuverability. In hammer grip, your thumb should act simply as a barrior to prevent the knife from twisting(or being twisted) out of your palm during strikes.

The particular Filipino grip that Jim described and which is often seen in pics of FMA fighters, is one where the thumb is held up and away from the spine of the blade like a giant foward curved upper guard. This grip is used in trapping to pinch the opponent's knifewielding wrist between one's thumb and the spine of one's blade. It can be highly effective. During thrusts or slashes, however, the thumb is returned to hammer grip for the reasons previously stated.

BTW, for those of you interested in reading my formal review of the CRKT KFF, the link is
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001704.html .

Lastly, I'd like to reemphasize that in this thread I have contrasted the liner lock and LAWKS safety system(as on the CRKT KFF) to single stage locks like the Axis Lock and the Rolling Lock solely from the point of view of maximum defensive capability. For general utility purposes, a liner lock with LAWKS safety is more than adequate. I own a semi-serrated KFF that I use for ocean kayaking and everyday cutting chores around the house, office, and camp, and it has never once failed me.

And don't forget that I continue to use a CRKT KFF as my R side defensive carry.

Mario

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-10-2001).]
 
Very valid points Jim, thanks for taking the time to explain! I would like CRKT to use a better system, but then I would prefer a Frame/Axis lock over most systems. Puts the price up though?

I will look a bit closer at my Kasper.

Food for thought.

W.A.

------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Founding president and member number 1! Wana join?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top