Andre de Villiers Butcher - Worst customer service ever, questionable business ethic.

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Chris_v_j

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I was holding off on going public with my frustration in dealing with Andre de Villiers, but after his latest message to me I feel it needs to be shared.

Okay, so unlike most people on here, I'm from South Africa. I was looking into getting my first midtech knife when I stumbled upon the ADV Butcher design on Instagram or something, and was quite elated when I found out the maker to be South African. It's difficult and expensive to import things from the States as an individual, and dealing directly with Andre seemed like the best of both worlds; I get a cool midtech knife while I support a local craftsman in the process.

To be honest, I had my reservations about ordering from him, as one of the first things to come up when Googling "Andre de Villiers Butcher" is an older thread here on BladeForums, detailing some very frustrating interactions with Andre. What swayed me was Jim Skelton's review of the full dress Butcher, which in hindsight might just have been because AdV is a bit of a flavour of the month maker and Jim wanted to make up for a previously unfriendly video.

Bear in mind, I have the full chat history with Andre, so if anyone wants it I'll gladly post it.

So I contact him on Facebook for the first time on 3 December. I end up paying R4500 (around $450) up front, and it's almost a month later... I'm currently sending messages back and forth to Andre trying to get a refund out of him, which he's being very rude about. After specifically sending him my home delivery address he has gone and sent the knife via the SA Postal service (to spite me), and will only refund me if he gets the knife back.

A) I did not agree to let him send the knife other than by door-to-door courier, and (B) until I haven't signed for and taken delivery of anything, the package is his responsibility.

The full transcript of our correspondence clearly shows a knifemaker not at all concerned with business ethic or even common decency for that matter. I was more than understanding with all the delays he kept cooking up, but things pretty much took a turn for the worst when I demanded a refund.

Again, full transcript is available - it makes for some interesting reading.

Question now is - How do I deal with this situation? The knife is in transit with a big possibility of some postal worker stealing the damn thing (NOBODY except Andre de Villiers uses the SA Postal Service). I agreed to door to door delivery, so I say he should just give me my money back and sort out his own mess.

Any advise will be appreciated.
 
AdV is an interesting character. I've bought a Butcher from him and the service I got was great. Several people I know who ordered from him recently were also happy with the service they got. But as comments on this forum show there unfortunately seems to be these hectic anomalies in the man's service. It's like finding hair in a most delicious pie.

What I can say with confidence though is that the Butcher is a phenomenal knife. It is worth the wait and hassle, believe me. At the price it is a bargain. You'll be stupid not to accept the knife on delivery.
 
I can copy and paste the whole conversation in a reply as well, I'm just not sure what the guidelines are here on BladeForums for posting long comments in a thread.
 
I read through the transcripts, and boy did both of you drop the ball. First, you changed your order last minute. Then he stopped communicating, but looking at how much you tried to communicate with him I'm surprised he kept up with you!

Did you get the knife?
 
My issues are as follows:
-I ordered and paid up front for something he supposedly had in stock, and on which he promises 4-6 days delivery to the States. After more than a week my package had not left yet, and he kept saying "now" or "tomorrow".
- He starts announcing a new and improved model, which I'm naturally curious about, but makes me feel like te a**hole for suggesting I'd rather take the new one if mine hasn't been sent yet.
- His whole attitude towards a paying customer is cringeworthy to say the least. I paid for the product, he made the promises and screwed up multiple times. In a competitive world filled with excellent knife makers, he's going to have to do a lot better than "I think you are the one who is doing the insulting,!!!!!! and I do not need that in my business . I have 1000's of happy customers who I deal with every month. I do not take kindly to your insinuations."
The customer is always right Andre, especially if you have their money AND their product. I'm just a guy who's wife wanted to get him a cool knife for Christmas, and now I have to slink around the house going: "So honey, about that knife..."

His only saving grace at this stage is that his ass is getting covered by dealers who handle most of the customers on his behalf.
 
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@Yo Mama:
Still knife-less. And look again - I did not change the order last minute, he started selling a new model when my order was not even out the door yet. I'm buying knives to use, and could care less if they are prototypes or collectible.
So I sat around waiting for my order, and then lo and behold, here's this new and improved model being advertised on Facebook and Instagram. Would you not enquire about it, especially if your order is still outstanding?
The least he could have done was tell me up front that the new model was imminent, or send my order the day I paid him. If that knife had gone out that week that I made the payment, there would have been no issue.
Check the dates, I gave him PLENTY of time.

But you are right - I did drop the ball. I dropped it by trusting the dude and paying up front, by ordering from someone who does not even have a website, let alone a customer relations bone in his entire body. All seems to go well as long as Andre is in control or the transaction goes off without a hitch.
 
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@Yo Mama:
I looked at our correspondence again, and he clearly said he'd "overnight by courier" on the 5th of December. I paid on the 5th, but as it was a Friday I did not bother him until the Monday (8th) to find out if he received the payment, at which point he indicated that he did.

So, given this exchange, any reasonable person would expect their delivery to take place, allowing for some delay and whatnot, to be on that Wednesday(10th) or Thursday (11th). So I enquire on Wednesday (quite casually), about the order, and he says "tomorrow". I respond by acting all excited and happy, meanwhile I'm thinking "oh shit".
I wait a whole day, and enquire again on Friday. "No sorry, we doing it today". Seeing a pattern forming here?
 
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Nellem said:
AdV is an interesting character. I've bought a Butcher from him and the service I got was great. Several people I know who ordered from him recently were also happy with the service they got. But as comments on this forum show there unfortunately seems to be these hectic anomalies in the man's service. It's like finding hair in a most delicious pie.

What I can say with confidence though is that the Butcher is a phenomenal knife. It is worth the wait and hassle, believe me. At the price it is a bargain. You'll be stupid not to accept the knife on delivery.
Click to expand...

I'll second this.

My experience was nothing but positive and the knife is fantastic. Easily the best mid tech I've ever owned and better than many customs.
 
jim skelton is knife ho.he gets to the front line of any maker he wants cause he gives them amazing reviews.if he doesnt they get bad reviews.he will say a hinderer is not worth the money and then have some crazy 2000$ knife thats worthless.watch all his videos you will see what I mean.he will say a knife is amazing then some one post bad about it he makes a retraction video.him a nutfancy should get married.I have a butcher and its a amazing knife.I wouldnt refund anything till I got the knife back eather.why should he refund you the money if he doesnt have it back yet.I red it and you both are wrong.when you get the knife send it back and get youre refund.what more do you want.everyone to bash him for a argument between twi "adults?" you did change it last minut.I bet you will like the knife.this is just a get over it situation.I see no froud or foul play.this thread in the good bad and ugly to me is foul on youre part.
 
@ endgamer:
I appreciate the input, but clearly you have never been to a rural Post Office in South Africa. There's a reason I gave him a specific delivery address - the SA Postal service is not a viable way of sending items of value - ever, by anyone.

And if someone tells you they are sending something "tomorrow", is a week later, without any explanation, still acceptable?
It's not like I ordered a custom. It's something that he's producing by the wheelbarrow load and that literally just needed to get sent out the door. Money in, knife out. Simple.
I deal with customers on a daily basis, and if I tell them "today", then I'm doing my best to keep to that commitment. There's no "you both are wrong" when one guy has the money AND the knife.
If you go into the customer service game you either stay on top of your game, you find someone who can do it for you, or you take care off, and only then walk away from the customers you couldn't satisfy - preferably without acting like a douche. You have someone's hard earned money and they have nothing to show for it. (To me $450 is a shitload of money for a knife, and I don't need to jump through hoops and kiss someone's ass just to get something for it.) With your logic, if he gave the knife to a hobo next to the train tracks and asked him to deliver it to me, the responsibility now suddenly lies with me to make sure he gets his knife back. He can come up with a million excuses as to why he's not getting the knife back, but that's between him and the Post Office. It has NOTHING to do with me, and should not affect the time it takes for him to do a refund. The only reason anyone would ever send anything with the SA Postal service was to be as much of a douchebag as possible. This is exactly like that situation where he shorted someone on their refund, so we've already established the way he operates.

My only mistake was going against my gut and ordering from a "bakkie operator" who does not even ring a single bell here in SA when you mention his name. I wonder why...
 
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Alright, I read all 18 pages of the back and forth between you and ADV, here is my humble opinion (just on that part of this story)

All seemed fine until you changed your mind to get the Gen 3. (He was slow at getting it out, but nothing insane, and it did work to your favour as you got to switch up to a Gen 3.

ADV made it clear they where not ready and still required assembly.

You emailed him way too many times on the 22nd/23rd, when you change up your order, and that knife (Gen 3) was prob. not ready, you need to show some patience instead of aggravating the hell out of someone.

The one thing ADV did not do is ship it 'overnight' to you. Not sure why, but that could have been dealt with better then 'I want a refund'

IMO, he was really cool in giving you a discount, and switching things up for you. He answered all your emails fairly promptly. I see no issues here. I see very little wrong with anything ADV did based on the communication you provided, except for the 'shipping service' he used. But that issue could have been handled better on your end...
 
He can come up with a million excuses as to why he's not getting the knife back, but that's between him and the Post Office. It has NOTHING to do with me, and should not affect the time it takes for him to do a refund.

^ agreed with this part of your post. He is responsible for getting it to your door.
If it is 'lost' in transit, that is for him, or any seller and the shipper to work out, and is not the responsibility of the buyer.

That's just common sense.
 
JR88FAN said:
He can come up with a million excuses as to why he's not getting the knife back, but that's between him and the Post Office. It has NOTHING to do with me, and should not affect the time it takes for him to do a refund.

agreed with this part of your post. He is responsible for getting it to your door.
If it is 'lost' in transit, that is for him, or any seller and the shipper to work out, and is not the responsibility of the buyer.

That's just common sense.
Click to expand...

It is sure common sense here in North America because if a deal is done properly both buyer and seller are covered by insurance and financial institutions. But in South Africa who knows what recourse one has.

This situation is all kinds of messed up. Mistakes were made on both ends. Buyer clearly needed to take chill pill at some point. Seller should have shipped on time and in a proper way. Oh, and if a maker has a record here that is negative it might be an indication not to deal with them.
 
@craytab: I'm literally one of the most laid back people you'd ever meet, and I asked a lot of people's opinion on how to enquire about my order from the high and mighty AdV. If you are happy handing over $450 for a midtech and then sitting on your hands like you just ordered the world's rarest custom, then by all means, that's your prerogative. He said overnight, not me, and I gave him a week of "chill" to get the order out.

@JR88FAN: All did not seem fine until he announced the Gen3. I don't know a guy from a bar of soap and he sits with my money for more than a week without any good explanation? You clearly have different expectations than me, but when a maker decides to do midtechs he'd better have his house in order.
Point still stands - I gave him an address, and he explicitly decided not to send the knife there. If he's so confident about the service he used, just refund my money and get the knife back from them. I'm the customer, it's my money. Case closed. If we don't see eye to eye about decent customer service then so be it, but SHOW ME THE MONEY.

I buy all my knives online from reputable dealers, and in all my years of online shopping I have not had a single major issue. They e-mail me about delays, they refund me when they screw up, but mostly I just click order and get my product as and when promised.
The one time I support the maker directly I get burned. He's clearly slowly developing a reputation, but if clowns like QuarterMaster can still be as popular as they are, then I guess there's plenty of room for AdV and his "quirky" business practices.

Only reason I approached him directly is because his stuff is not available anywhere in SA.
I've already spoken to the owner of one SA's most respected knife shops and showed him my interaction with Andre, and the picture is getting clearer. Buyers proceed with caution and make up your own minds. If it looks like a duck...

I'm kind of over this whole thing and I'm just curious to see how Mr de Villiers handles my refund so I can go and buy two ZTs or a Sebenza instead.
 
Chris_v_j said:
"I'm literally one of the most laid back people you'd ever meet"
Click to expand...

Whether you get a refund, or the knife...chalk this up as a learning experience- then take a couple of day's off & head over to Jeffrey's Bay, & life will be awesome once again! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGG5wWJX_ls

Best of luck working this unfortunate situation out.

Nellem said:
Just today a thread was started on the SABlade forum by a highly respected member of that forum telling how happy he is with ADV and the three Butchers that were ordered by him and some friends from the UK. My own experience is the same is his.

It must be hell these days to be a hero knifemaker 24/7 because expectations are sky high and the internet readily at hand. A maker must be online and in the workshop 24/7 and he must keep all his clients happy all the time or get crucified in public. What makes AdV's specific case tough is that he's trying to get his mid-tech business off the ground and that is a very different animal than sticking to customs. The Butcher has been a phenomenal success and it may well be that AdV is somewhat overwhelmed. He wants to keep everybody happy but struggles to do so. This is what I suspect is happening. i don't think the guy is bad or trying to be difficult for the heck of it.

For the quality and uniqueness I got with my Butcher I won't mind waiting months. I will never exchange mine for a Sebenza or ZT. The Butcher feels like a full custom.

But that is just my 2 cents on this matter.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:
Excellent comment! Thanks for sharing; it would be awesome to see a couple of pictures of your knife.
 
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Just today a thread was started on the SABlade forum by a highly respected member of that forum telling how happy he is with ADV and the three Butchers that were ordered by him and some friends from the UK. My own experience is the same is his.

It must be hell these days to be a hero knifemaker 24/7 because expectations are sky high and the internet readily at hand. A maker must be online and in the workshop 24/7 and he must keep all his clients happy all the time or get crucified in public. What makes AdV's specific case tough is that he's trying to get his mid-tech business off the ground and that is a very different animal than sticking to customs. The Butcher has been a phenomenal success and it may well be that AdV is somewhat overwhelmed. He wants to keep everybody happy but struggles to do so. This is what I suspect is happening. i don't think the guy is bad or trying to be difficult for the heck of it.

For the quality and uniqueness I got with my Butcher I won't mind waiting months. I will never exchange mine for a Sebenza or ZT. The Butcher feels like a full custom.

But that is just my 2 cents on this matter.
 
Andre is a total douchebag and it doesn't surprise me that yet another person is having a bad experience with him. What everyone needs to understand is unless you are the guy in the situation and getting hosed over by him, it's easy to dismiss and say, "you should have done this, or you should've done that"

The point of the whole matter is, Andre has VERY poor character. As a maker, it should be really simple to resolve ANY customer issue amicably and have a good working relationship with your customer who is paying you a very handsome sum for one of your knives. The fact that Andre goes out of his way to play childish little games like, not responding to you, or sending off knives to you when you are still in discussions, just to spite you, speaks to his character as a person.

Any knife enthusiast when ordering a knife, is excited and is just looking to get the knife he is after. As a maker, how hard is it to negotiate an order and follow through on it? If there is a disagreement on terms, how hard is it to politely and expeditiously refund your customer and part ways? The fact that Andre constantly gets into situations where a simple thing like the terms and conditions of a knife order can't be sorted out and then goes further by making it as difficult as possible for a customer to get a refund, is calculated and purposeful and speaks to what a scumbag Andre is.

I for one would NEVER own an ADV knife. If anyone is thinking about ordering one, my advice is don't. There are tons of great makers out there, who are men of dignity and honor and life is way too short to have steel in your pocket made by a scumbag.
 
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