Andre de Villiers Butcher - Worst customer service ever, questionable business ethic.

[craytab]

@craytab: I'm literally one of the most laid back people you'd ever meet, and I asked a lot of people's opinion on how to enquire about my order from the high and mighty AdV. If you are happy handing over $450 for a midtech and then sitting on your hands like you just ordered the world's rarest custom, then by all means, that's your prerogative. He said overnight, not me, and I gave him a week of "chill" to get the order out.

No it is not my prerogative. Don't put words in my mouth. You are the one who gave a guy $450 who has a bad reputation for terrible customer service, but hey, that was clearly your prerogative. You even did this knowing of his bad reputation. And guess what? You got bad customer service! Further, you likely made it much worse with all the back and forth. Go look up any custom knife buying guide. One of the big no-nos is bugging the crap out of the maker. Throw in that he has a bad rep and here you are.

@JR88FAN....
Point still stands - I gave him an address, and he explicitly decided not to send the knife there. If he's so confident about the service he used, just refund my money and get the knife back from them. I'm the customer, it's my money. Case closed. If we don't see eye to eye about decent customer service then so be it, but SHOW ME THE MONEY.

No maker, dealer, or seller should ever have to do a refund before they get their item back in hand. I can only see that happening if the item is completely lost. And in that case the seller refunds the money to the buyer and then gets reimbursed through insurance. This is how things work here, don't know about where you are but then again that is why I wouldn't sell outside of the US unless I was completely prepared to lose my item and my money.

Only reason I approached him directly is because his stuff is not available anywhere in SA.
I've already spoken to the owner of one SA's most respected knife shops and showed him my interaction with Andre, and the picture is getting clearer. Buyers proceed with caution and make up your own minds. If it looks like a duck...

And to be fair, you knew he had a bad rep before you bought. The only reason I know this person even exists is all the bad press on him. Never even seen one of his knives and nor do I care to.

 

[craytab]

Andre is a total douchebag and it doesn't surprise me that yet another person is having a bad experience with him. What everyone needs to understand is unless you are the guy in the situation and getting hosed over by him, it's easy to dismiss and say, "you should have done this, or you should've done that"

The point of the whole matter is, Andre has VERY poor character. As a maker, it should be really simple to resolve ANY customer issue amicably and have a good working relationship with your customer who is paying you a very handsome sum for one of your knives. The fact that Andre goes out of his way to play childish little games like, not responding to you, or sending off knives to you when you are still in discussions, just to spite you, speaks to his character as a person.

Any knife enthusiast when ordering a knife, is excited and is just looking to get the knife he is after. As a maker, how hard is it to negotiate an order and follow through on it? If there is a disagreement on terms, how hard is it to politely and expeditiously refund your customer and part ways? The fact that Andre constantly gets into situations where a simple thing like the terms and conditions of a knife order can't be sorted out and then goes further by making it as difficult as possible for a customer to get a refund, is calculated and purposeful and speaks to what a scumbag Andre is.

I for one would NEVER own an ADV knife. If anyone is thinking about ordering one, my advice is don't. There are tons of great makers out there, who are men of dignity and honor and life is way too short to have steel in your pocket made by a scumbag.

Okay, but just like it should be easy to negotiate a deal or a refund it should also be easy to do a bit of research on a person before you hand over $450, right? I followed your thread about this guy earlier in the year (fall?). I knew right then and there that this guy would never be on any sort of knife buying list.

There are constant, consistent issues we see pop up here in the GB&U. Using paypal gift (don't do it). Prepaying for a custom order or mod work that is not yet started. Insure you packages as a seller. Remember a deal isn't done until both parties are satisfied. And finally, do research on who you are dealing with. Most if not all problems can be avoided if these simple things are followed.

Unfortunately, people come to the GB&U only after there is a problem (often joining to making their first post about their problem). If they could just spend five minutes here before shipping off that large some of cash, many problems could be avoided. Hopefully that next person thinking of doing a deal with this scumbage does their research first and sees this thread!

 

[wolfmann601]

I, like so many here have said and continue to say that with so many reputable, responsible, honest, hard working Knife makers why even take a chance with a maker that has a negative history and requires upfront payment?

 

[reapinItUP]

In this instance this is about a very needy customer with not enough patience.
That is my opinion after reading all the emails.

 

[drrickso]

In this instance this is about a very needy customer with not enough patience.
That is my opinion after reading all the emails.

pay for item, expect to get item in return... when someone spends money on anything and has to wait beyond a reasonable amount of time they understandably worry about when/if they will get the item. sorry but i disagree that there wasnt enough patience here- patience shouldnt mean waiting forever.

imo adv needs to understand that hes measured moreso by the 1 unhappy customer than the 1000 happy... how he deals with adversity says who he really is, not how he handles things when they run smoothly.

 

[JR88FAN]

@craytab: I'm literally one of the most laid back people you'd ever meet, and I asked a lot of people's opinion on how to enquire about my order from the high and mighty AdV. If you are happy handing over $450 for a midtech and then sitting on your hands like you just ordered the world's rarest custom, then by all means, that's your prerogative. He said overnight, not me, and I gave him a week of "chill" to get the order out.

@JR88FAN: All did not seem fine until he announced the Gen3. I don't know a guy from a bar of soap and he sits with my money for more than a week without any good explanation? You clearly have different expectations than me, but when a maker decides to do midtechs he'd better have his house in order.
Point still stands - I gave him an address, and he explicitly decided not to send the knife there. If he's so confident about the service he used, just refund my money and get the knife back from them. I'm the customer, it's my money. Case closed. If we don't see eye to eye about decent customer service then so be it, but SHOW ME THE MONEY.

I buy all my knives online from reputable dealers, and in all my years of online shopping I have not had a single major issue. They e-mail me about delays, they refund me when they screw up, but mostly I just click order and get my product as and when promised.
The one time I support the maker directly I get burned. He's clearly slowly developing a reputation, but if clowns like QuarterMaster can still be as popular as they are, then I guess there's plenty of room for AdV and his "quirky" business practices.

Only reason I approached him directly is because his stuff is not available anywhere in SA.
I've already spoken to the owner of one SA's most respected knife shops and showed him my interaction with Andre, and the picture is getting clearer. Buyers proceed with caution and make up your own minds. If it looks like a duck...

I'm kind of over this whole thing and I'm just curious to see how Mr de Villiers handles my refund so I can go and buy two ZTs or a Sebenza instead.

He confirmed receipt of your payment on the 8th, and by the 12th you where already changing to whatever his other knife is.....
Anyway, I have no love for ADV, I just feel that in this particular case, I see a buyer who is very impatient and a little more aggressive with emails than I would be when dealing with a maker.

The shipping issues are 100% on him as I said in my earlier post.

 

[Chris_v_j]

Guys, thanks for all the input. Clearly some of you think I hassled Mr AdV way too much and that my expectations were too high, even when ordering what most people would describe as an absurdly expensive knife.
Just an update - still no sign of a knife or refund, and we're heading to the ass-end (16:30) of Tuesday the 30th December. Almost another week of AdV having my money, and me walking around with a big old bag of nothing. He hasn't contacted me since my last interaction with him two days ago, so clearly I'm the one at fault here.

 

[Chris_v_j]

Are my expectations high? Not overtly so.
- A few weeks ago I placed a $150 order for custom photographic magnets from a company in the UK, and it got delivered to my door within 10 days.
- Placed a $170 order with a local print company for some very custom work, and they produced, packed and shipped it to my door within 8 days. I knew it would be 7-10 days, as they kept me up to date and I never had a single issue trying to find out what was happening with my order.
- I ordered a Kershaw Cryo for my dad for Christmas on the Monday, and by Wednesday it was delivered in his hands. I mailed them a query about the order on Tuesday afternoon, they responded and nobody's panties ever got in a bunch. Now insert the interaction with Mr Andre. Why does he get cut so much slack?

Was I impatient? No. He's the one making midtechs and promising 4-6 day INTERNATIONAL delivery - not me. I order cameras and lenses from the other side of this country on a regular basis, and the process goes like this: I pay. I get a confirmation e-mail with estimated time of shipping. I get a follow-up e-mail with a tracking number from a reputable courier company. I track parcel. It arrives at my door two days later. $3000 camera; bought.

 

[Chris_v_j]

I'll come back to this if and when I get my money back from AdV, but until then I have more positive things to do with my life.
Two years ago a gang of four armed robbers shot at me, tortured me for forty five minutes and took every last earthly possession I valued. That included a knife collection I'd been building since 1988, but luckily that experience taught me a valuable lesson. All these toys are just things, with only as much value as we give them. In the end it's a collection of steel and bolts, and it really does not mean all that much. There's more important things in life than knives and money, and if mr AdV's character is acceptable to some in this community, that's fine.
I'll stick to the few knives I have and buy the odd production model as the need arises.

 

[SharpJax]

I'm surprised moderators haven't shut this thread down at this point. The OP clearly joined the forums just to post this rant on an issue that requires more patience than he's willing to give - his 11 posts to Blade Forums are all on this thread. There are posts in here by at least one other that are maligning the character of a prominent knife maker who they've most likely never met, which have been allowed to remain, which I feel are entirely inappropriate on a public forum. The situation sounds a bit frustrating, but really this is no way at all to resolve it. Yes, I completely agree, there are far more important things than this, which makes me wonder why you've spent so much effort and energy into pursuing it this way.

 

[garzanium]

Out of everyone here, I am one to understand waiting..I waited 3 months for my Butcher at the hands of the SA post office. I didnt have but 1 email sent to Andre as I know it wasnt in his hands and frankly..as an American that deals with folks outside of the US all the time..I rather not create more confusion and hassle for myself or the person due to communication issues with email vs phone or in person..

I do understand the frustration of SAPO, but then again, not many options during the holidays.

Looks like the conversation went south due to a lack of response and a long wait right around the holidays..Maybe he should have posted on FB he was not answering emails, but the expectation should have been probably been he would not be in the office during that week.

Not taking sides, but do give the man credit for trying to make it right when you changed your mind last minute.

Unfortunately not all purchases are straight forward at times..im waiting on a knife I ordered early Dec and was suppose to get before Christmas, but I know the maker hasnt even gotten to mine..so I will probably email him after the new year to see how he is doing and where my knife is in production..if its a month of two delayed..thats fine as long as i know he is working on mine in place his orders where placed..

 

[craytab]

Are my expectations high? Not overtly so.

Yes they are. All the other examples you give are irrelevant. You bought a knife from a guy with a very bad reputation. Given his rep, I don't think anyone is shocked this is happening to you. You pushed a scumbage who thinks he is some sort of knife god. What did you think would happen? No need to answer, it's rhetorical.

Sorry, that's just how it is and now you have to live with it and learn from it. Sucks I know, but as you say, you have more positive things to do. Go do them.

 

[KELAMA]

I'll come back to this if and when I get my money back from AdV, but until then I have more positive things to do with my life.
Two years ago a gang of four armed robbers shot at me, tortured me for forty five minutes and took every last earthly possession I valued. That included a knife collection I'd been building since 1988, but luckily that experience taught me a valuable lesson. All these toys are just things, with only as much value as we give them. In the end it's a collection of steel and bolts, and it really does not mean all that much. There's more important things in life than knives and money, and if mr AdV's character is acceptable to some in this community, that's fine.
I'll stick to the few knives I have and buy the odd production model as the need arises.

It would be nice if you could keep this thread updated, on how this plays out.

BTW- I just now, read the entire communication chain between you, & Andre (I had previously overlooked the link).
https://db.tt/bT9mi8dY

Please take this only as constructive criticism, Chris:

I think that you could've handled the communication between you, & Andre much better. The fact that it was Christmas time, & factoring in that you changed your order to a different knife, I honestly believe that it would have helped the situation, had you been more patient. Communicating via the internet/texts, always seem to create a breakdown in communication. It's always better to do business in person, & if you can't, over the phone.

it's a shame! I went on Andre's Facebook page & did some research on his knives, & to be quite honest, I think that he makes an awesome looking high quality knife. I'm not defending him, but it must be very hard being a businessman & make EVERYBODY happy, in this high tech, people want it now World, that we live in today.

There are always 2 sides to every situation/problem, & once communication via the internet goes South...this is what usually seems to happen.

Best of luck getting your $$$ refunded.

 

[Chris_v_j]

Still no correspondence back from Andre, and neither a knife or a refund in sight.
Some points to ponder: Nobody in their right mind uses the SA Postal service. Why still use a service that has burned you and your customers in the past, other than knowingly trying to be difficult? He should have notified me of his supposed inability to find a suitable courier before pulling the move that he did.

Some of the guys on here clearly don't appreciate common customer courtesy. I do, and dealing with people who appreciate my business is awesome.

What's so hard about keeping your clients informed? And when they have issues with you or with their order, sort them out without acting like a loon. If they demand a refund, sort it out and move on. It's me buying a volume produced product, not "let's kiss Andre's ass until he graces us with one of his magical inventions".

It's not my fault he's making midtechs. He threw his hat in that ring and should deal with the responsibility that comes with playing with the big boys. Selling midtechs (a volume business) is not the same as sitting at your bench all month to produce one custom piece. There are certain responsibilities that come with having to service hundreds, instead of a handful of customers at a time.
Where is the supposed admin lady he speaks of in all of this? When I originally suggested to him that he should get her to mail customers their tracking numbers and order updates, he got all offended. Only reason I was bugging him personally is because that's the way he set up his business. Imagine if Chris Reeve had to sit with Facebook messenger just so he could micro-manage every little thing in his company. Chaos would rain upon Idaho like a biblical plague.

Fact remains, no matter who you are siding with here: He still has my money and I am yet to hear back from him about a refund.

 

[Chris_v_j]

...And before someone points out the obvious. I'm keeping this updated as I was asked by a number of people to keep this thread going until I had a conclusion to this issue. I really do have other things to do. The lotion is not going to put itself on the skin...

For the last time; Yes, yes it was my mistake for choosing to support AdV. My experience is still relevant to the one or two guys on the fence about doing business with him, so please, learn from my mistake.

If me joining BF and posting my experience is such an issue for a lot of you, get the thread removed or read something else. The knife collecting scene in SA is small, and joining a Quilters Anonymous Forum to talk about a knifemaker seemed pointless at the time. For the most part I own Spydercos, a ZT, a Benchmade and a few Kershaws, and I live at the ass-end of Africa. No real value to add to BF up to this point. If I transgressed the sacred laws of the holy protocol then by all means, close this thread down. Would not want to keep anyone from talking about how awesome their damascus pinky rings are, or how people only join BF to bitch about stuff they don't like. Until I googled AdV I didn't even know that people still used forums. I just needed a place to vent, and what better place than a corner of the internet that nobody ever visits? Ba-da-dishhh!

I'm guessing this will get me put in the naughty corner, so you can all go back to finding the next trainwreck to gawk at. I'll sort out my refund in private and maybe take up quilting instead of knife collecting.

 

[Sosa]

I don't get the arrogance some of the makers exude. I like grilled cheese sandwiches but I'm not smokin pole to get one made.

 

[craytab]

Still no correspondence back from Andre, and neither a knife or a refund in sight.
Some points to ponder: Nobody in their right mind uses the SA Postal service. Why still use a service that has burned you and your customers in the past, other than knowingly trying to be difficult? He should have notified me of his supposed inability to find a suitable courier before pulling the move that he did.

And there you have it. Before you made this order you knew about how difficult he can be. There is a mountain of evidence about how difficult this scumbage is to deal with.

Some of the guys on here clearly don't appreciate common customer courtesy. I do, and dealing with people who appreciate my business is awesome.

I don't know who you are directing this towards but you need to be careful with comments like this. Most if not all of us commenting in this thread do appreciate common courtesy. THAT IS WHY WE WOULD HAVE NEVER DONE BUSINESS WITH THIS GUY!!!!!!!!

What's so hard about keeping your clients informed? And when they have issues with you or with their order, sort them out without acting like a loon. If they demand a refund, sort it out and move on. It's me buying a volume produced product, not "let's kiss Andre's ass until he graces us with one of his magical inventions".

Again, look at his track record. Not surprising.

Fact remains, no matter who you are siding with here: He still has my money and I am yet to hear back from him about a refund.

I am not siding with anyone. He is a scumbag that no one should do business with. And you made the mistake of dealing with him and pushing him.

 

[craytab]

...And before someone points out the obvious. I'm keeping this updated as I was asked by a number of people to keep this thread going until I had a conclusion to this issue. I really do have other things to do. The lotion is not going to put itself on the skin...

For the last time; Yes, yes it was my mistake for choosing to support AdV. My experience is still relevant to the one or two guys on the fence about doing business with him, so please, learn from my mistake.

If me joining BF and posting my experience is such an issue for a lot of you, get the thread removed or read something else. The knife collecting scene in SA is small, and joining a Quilters Anonymous Forum to talk about a knifemaker seemed pointless at the time. For the most part I own Spydercos, a ZT, a Benchmade and a few Kershaws, and I live at the ass-end of Africa. No real value to add to BF up to this point. If I transgressed the sacred laws of the holy protocol then by all means, close this thread down. Would not want to keep anyone from talking about how awesome their damascus pinky rings are, or how people only join BF to bitch about stuff they don't like. Until I googled AdV I didn't even know that people still used forums. I just needed a place to vent, and what better place than a corner of the internet that nobody ever visits? Ba-da-dishhh!

I'm guessing this will get me put in the naughty corner, so you can all go back to finding the next trainwreck to gawk at. I'll sort out my refund in private and maybe take up quilting instead of knife collecting.

At this point you need to stop posting about this. You are repeating yourself and getting all worked up. Go enjoy some of the other areas of the website (I like General Knife Discussion, Reviews & Testing, SOG, Benchmade, & Spyderco Sub-forums) and post back when you have something to report (not just a day by day update with no new information). You will feel a lot better. All just my opinion of course.

 

[RevDevil]

When we have some additional information we can update this thread. Until then, the arguing, redundant commentary, borderline insults, and painting everyone with the broad brush is going to stop.