Angle sharpener vs freehand

[toker]

When I bought my WE130, I checked my knives that I freehand sharpened and found that my natural freehand sharpening was about 17dps on one side, and about 13dps on the other. All these years I thought that I had the sides pretty even when they were about 4dps different. They were still sharp though. But the Wicked Edge is just so much easier with perfect results. There's just no comparison, especially if you break out the microscope.

I just upgraded my Gen 1 WE to the WE120. I'm not ashamed to admit it was because of the ball bearing arms and also the increased angle settings.

The biggest downside of the WE is that you realize how uneven the bevels are on a good number of the knives you're sharpening.

 

[SpaceGhost88]

Too many YouTube cowboys (and we all know who they are)... need to take off the Japanese headband... take off the kimono... and stop acting like they are sharpening a Samurai Katana under a waterfall near Mt. Fuji when sharpening a knife.

It's not 1620... and there are many better options to sharpen a knife today than freehand on a stone. But whatever floats your boat.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Why the burr would behave differently free hand vs. guided systems? A hard piece of leather is the softest strop I use. Never had any proplems to remove the burr after free hand sharpening. In my experience few passes on a piece of newsprint is enough to remove all the burr.

This.^

There's no logic to the assumption that freehand is somehow less effective for burr removal, or sharpening in general, for that matter. I've no doubt that burr removal was perfected long before guided sharpeners ever existed, likely by centuries. It's about learned technique, awareness of what's going on with the edge and the persistent refinement of skills with the gear you choose to use.

Master the tools you have. Then, sharpening and the handling of burrs become easy.

 

[cudgee]

It's about learned technique, awareness of what's going on with the edge and the persistent refinement of skills with the gear you choose to use.

Yes mate, patience and observation are 2 of the key elements. And as my father said, " You Never Stop Learning ".

Master the tools you have

Great advise.

 

[Twindog]

This.^

There's no logic to the assumption that freehand is somehow less effective for burr removal, or sharpening in general, for that matter. I've no doubt that burr removal was perfected long before guided sharpeners ever existed, likely by centuries. It's about learned technique, awareness of what's going on with the edge and the persistent refinement of skills with the gear you choose to use.

Master the tools you have. Then, sharpening and the handling of burrs become easy.

Let's say you have a 15 dps edge that has a small burr. Freehand with just a tiny deviation, you hit the burr with at a 17 dps angle. Now you've created a microbevel on one side of your edge with a large burr. Or, let's say you hit it with a 13 dps angle. Now you've missed the burr altogether and just rounded the edge shoulders. Anyone who has read this subform for long knows that burr removal is a major problem for most people.

Freehand is another way to say "imprecise-hand." If you're good at freehanding and have a lot of experience, you can certainly get an excellent edge -- even a spectacular edge. But you have to be very good. A much less experienced sharpener can get a better edge with a good guided system.

In his classic book The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening, John Juranitch found that only 1 in 20 butchers could properly sharpen a knife, which led to a great demand for his business and his writing the book. You say burr removal was "perfected" over centuries. Not by many. Not by 19 of 20 professionals who sharpened knives and used them for a living day in and day out.

Juranitch writes, "... there is no other field that is more ridden with old wives tales and gimmickry than the sharpening field." One of those old wives tales is using oil on oil stones. "... if you use oil in sharpening, it will: Number one -- cost you money. Number two -- make a mess. Number three -- give you an inferior edge."

How does Juranitch know that that it's bad to use oil on oil stones as people have done for ages? "We used electron microscopes with magnifications up to 10,000 power, and you could easily see the difference between the wet and dry edges. The edges that had been sharpened in oil had small chips knocked ou of the cutting edge; the dry-sharpened blades did not."

People like to divide into camps, thinking that one system is always better than the other. In reality, both freehand and guided systems have their place. Personally, I do both. But for my best edges, I aways use a WE guided system.

What people have done for a thousand years is no guarantee that today's technology isn't better. Sal made a fortune off a guided system. There's a reason for that success.

 

[Tapio]

I checked my knives that I freehand sharpened and found that my natural freehand sharpening was about 17dps on one side, and about 13dps on the other. All these years I thought that I had the sides pretty even when they were about 4dps different.

How do you like to sharpen the opposite bevel? Do you flip the knife or switch hands?

 

[000Robert]

I just upgraded my Gen 1 WE to the WE120. I'm not ashamed to admit it was because of the ball bearing arms and also the increased angle settings.

The biggest downside of the WE is that you realize how uneven the bevels are on a good number of the knives you're sharpening.

Yeah, but with the WE they are easy to reprofile. I don't know anything about those older units. What was wrong with the ball bearing arms? I love my WE130 and wouldn't trade it for nearly anything.

 

[000Robert]

How do you like to sharpen the opposite bevel? Do you flip the knife or switch hands?

I flip the knife if you are asking about freehand. I think I freehand the way most people do: with the stone horizontal in front of me, I sharpen from heel to tip while moving from side to side trying to use as much of the stone as possible.

 

[Tapio]

Too many YouTube cowboys (and we all know who they are)... need to take off the Japanese headband... take off the kimono... and stop acting like they are sharpening a Samurai Katana under a waterfall near Mt. Fuji when sharpening a knife.

It's not 1620... and there are many better options to sharpen a knife today than freehand on a stone. But whatever floats your boat.

Too bad that I see this information only few hours after I ordered a rather expensive Belgian Coticule whetstone. Would anybody like to trade a 3 dollar pull through sharpener for my 300 dollar outdated piece of Belgium?

How much sharper your knives are than this knife which has been sharpened using inferior method?

 

[Tapio]

I flip the knife if you are asking about freehand. I think I freehand the way most people do: with the stone horizontal in front of me, I sharpen from heel to tip while moving from side to side trying to use as much of the stone as possible.

Yes my question was about free hand sharpening. In my opinion flipping the knife is faster way to get comfortable and effective. Switching the hands feels awkward at first but is the easier way to keep thing even between the sides in the long run.

 

[000Robert]

Yes my question was about free hand sharpening. In my opinion flipping the knife is faster way to get comfortable and effective. Switching the hands feels awkward at first but is the easier way to keep thing even between the sides in the long run.

I played the drums for many years, mostly metal, and can pretty much use my left hand nearly as well as my right, but sharpening with my left hand just never felt right. I've tried it a few times.

 

[000Robert]

It's not 1620... and there are many better options to sharpen a knife today than freehand on a stone. But whatever floats your boat.

That's true, but I do believe that everyone needs to know how to freehand. Freehand will be the first method that I teach to my grandchildren.

 

[EngrSorenson]

Too many YouTube cowboys (and we all know who they are)... need to take off the Japanese headband... take off the kimono... and stop acting like they are sharpening a Samurai Katana under a waterfall near Mt. Fuji when sharpening a knife.

It's not 1620... and there are many better options to sharpen a knife today than freehand on a stone. But whatever floats your boat.

Definitely agree that there’s a bit of weirdness there. The Japanese culture is generally known for doing things, even sometimes mundane things, in a prescriptive, ceremonial way that boarders an art form. How you do a thing is sometimes as much of a focus as the thing you’re trying to do.

Many of those YouTube videos seem very disingenuous, as if the YouTuber was using the culture to gain respectability and clout without dedicating themselves to a disciplined study. Even if they were every ounce the master they make themselves out to be, the showmanship isn’t necessary and makes me skeptical.

I definitely enjoy using a stone though. It’s kind of therapeutic.

 

[Tapio]

Let's say you have a 15 dps edge that has a small burr. Freehand with just a tiny deviation, you hit the burr with at a 17 dps angle. Now you've created a microbevel on one side of your edge with a large burr. Or, let's say you hit it with a 13 dps angle. Now you've missed the burr altogether and just rounded the edge shoulders. Anyone who has read this subform for long knows that burr removal is a major problem for most people.

Freehand is another way to say "imprecise-hand." If you're good at freehanding and have a lot of experience, you can certainly get an excellent edge -- even a spectacular edge. But you have to be very good. A much less experienced sharpener can get a better edge with a good guided system.

In his classic book The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening, John Juranitch found that only 1 in 20 butchers could properly sharpen a knife, which led to a great demand for his business and his writing the book. You say burr removal was "perfected" over centuries. Not by many. Not by 19 of 20 professionals who sharpened knives and used them for a living day in and day out.

Juranitch writes, "... there is no other field that is more ridden with old wives tales and gimmickry than the sharpening field." One of those old wives tales is using oil on oil stones. "... if you use oil in sharpening, it will: Number one -- cost you money. Number two -- make a mess. Number three -- give you an inferior edge."

How does Juranitch know that that it's bad to use oil on oil stones as people have done for ages? "We used electron microscopes with magnifications up to 10,000 power, and you could easily see the difference between the wet and dry edges. The edges that had been sharpened in oil had small chips knocked ou of the cutting edge; the dry-sharpened blades did not."

People like to divide into camps, thinking that one system is always better than the other. In reality, both freehand and guided systems have their place. Personally, I do both. But for my best edges, I aways use a WE guided system.

What people have done for a thousand years is no guarantee that today's technology isn't better. Sal made a fortune off a guided system. There's a reason for that success.

Quite often a tiny secondary bevel will improve the performance of the blade. Almost all the Mora knives have it. Only the Mora whittling knives are true zero grind Scandi. Also convex grind has some undeniable advantages. That rounded shoulder just slides through like nothing and a convex edge is stornger than a perfectly flat grind. Most of the steels are too weak to have a true zero grind bevels. I can do dead straight bevels free hand but I want to add a tiny micro convex bevel to strengthen the apex. I can do a dead straight bevel but what is the point?

It’s not only butchers who fail to learn how to sharpen a knife. Also many western chefs skip this. Once I bought few knives from a chef who worked in the most expensive restaurant of my country. Those expensive knives had been sharpened to really poor condition. I have never understood how they can be professionals without knowing even the basic skills. I like the Japanese school. They produce chefs who know how to keep their main tool in tip-top condition.

I don’t use oil stones because they are messy. However, water stones give you total control over slurry dulling. You can use a thick slurry in the beginning when you need a lot of abrasive material for a fast steel removal. As the blade gets sharper you can thin you slurry until finally there is only water over the whetstone.

All the time people get their straight razors and wood working tools extremely sharp free hand. Most of the knives of this forum never need be that sharp.

 

[Tapio]

Definitely agree that there’s a bit of weirdness there. The Japanese culture is generally known for doing things, even sometimes mundane things, in a prescriptive, ceremonial way that boarders an art form. How you do a thing is sometimes as much of a focus as the thing you’re trying to do.

For me the main thing here is that the Japanese culture recognizes the full worth of a sharp blade. They also have an unparalleled history in making high quality blades. Westerners quite often are happy with much less cutting performance. A Japanse sword, knife, woodworking tool, axe and pretty much any kind blade is just more advanced compared to the the western blades.

 

[toker]

I don't know anything about those older units. What was wrong with the ball bearing arms?

The original version had arms that were on two pins. The problem was that the pins would walk out every once in a while and you had to reinsert them or put a dab of glue to keep them in. The thumb screws that tightened the arms also came loose more often than I would have liked. The other downside was that the edge angles only went from 15-30°.

 

[000Robert]

The original version had arms that were on two pins. The problem was that the pins would walk out every once in a while and you had to reinsert them or put a dab of glue to keep them in. The thumb screws that tightened the arms also came loose more often than I would have liked. The other downside was that the edge angles only went from 15-30°

Oh, ok. You could've bought some aftermarket Micro-Angle adjusters for it on the WE forum. I have some in stainless steel on my WE130 as you can see in the photo. I also got the ball joint and stone covers, and stone stops.

 

[garry3]

Yes my question was about free hand sharpening. In my opinion flipping the knife is faster way to get comfortable and effective. Switching the hands feels awkward at first but is the easier way to keep thing even between the sides in the long run.

I believe that is true at least in my case. I do both just because.

How big is a $300 coticule? Natural combo?

 

[Tapio]

How big is a $300 coticule? Natural combo?

It’s a 200x60 mm combination stone Coticule / black slate. Coticule is a rather brittle stone and black slate is there only to give support for Coticule. 269 euros to be exact.

 

[cudgee]

It’s a 200x60 mm combination stone Coticule / black slate. Coticule is a rather brittle stone and black slate is there only to give support for Coticule. 269 euros to be exact.

They are beautiful stones. You'll love it.