Angle sharpener vs freehand

garry3 said:
Seems like with a guided system you would be pretty well stuck with V grind edges?
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I'm sure it depends on how much work you're willing to put into it- I wouldn't be surprised if you could set the angle 2-3 different ways and create an imitation convex, and then strop it to continuously convex.
Seems like a lot of work though.
 
garry3 said:
Seems like with a guided system you would be pretty well stuck with V grind edges?
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Shim one end of the stone up and you will get a consistent convex, well at least as consistent as your stroke travel.
 
Tapio said:
How about numerous self guiding blades like Scandi grind knives, single bevel knives, planes and straight razors? Free hand sharpening is a really simple way to keep the bevels straight and uniform. Guided systems struggle with those blades. Thin and flexy kitchen knives are a major problem for guided systems. Some spine shapes like rhombic and hammered spine are hard to clamp. Guided systems work well on a rather narrow field of blades.
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Sure thats the tradeoff and all this could be included in my noted shortcomings of guided systems. They are great, but limited. You need a flat surface to work off of, you need to set it up, it helps to have blade flats to clamp to with many of them, flexing thin blades can be a problem, blade length and blade curvature can limit angle consistency from heel to tip, recurves can be frustrating, blade grind variation from the factory can result in unsightly wide bevels on one side etc etc

For pocket knives, particularly those that have some of these very hard powder steels, having the guided system can be great. You can get clean, even grinds. You can set your exact preferred edge bevel. You can grind a lower angle with more confidence given the angle is fixed. You have a lower chance of marring up a high priced folder. You can more easily achieve those high polished edges with far less built up muscle memory.

They have their place but they are not a one size fits all solution for sure.
 
3D Anvil said:
Some systems also have the option of using a curved rod to produce a convex.
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A dished stone would also do it.
Free hand is pretty straight forward or atleast a reasonable approximation.
With most of my knifes I just start a little more acute than intended and usually stop just short of sharp. Then I raise the angle a little on the finisher. I can then just touch them up at the finished angle once or twice.
 
Some have a curved rod and I think others have a tapered rod which accomplishes the same thing.
 
Tapio said:
How about numerous self guiding blades like Scandi grind knives, single bevel knives, planes and straight razors?
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You can still use a guided system for chisel grinds. You just sharpen one side and either do a really shallow angle on the other side or you can just take a stone and knock off the burr freehand. Even a good number of Emerson knives that are V-ground still have a chisel like edge. For those knives, I usually do something like 27° on one edge and 13° on the other.

Tapio said:
Thin and flexy kitchen knives are a major problem for guided systems. Some spine shapes like rhombic and hammered spine are hard to clamp. Guided systems work well on a rather narrow field of blades.
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The Wicked Edge has an optional support that can be used to keep a flexible blade straight. I've never had an issue clamping any kind of knife on the Wicked Edge, even with hammered spines.
 
tokerblue said:
You can still use a guided system for chisel grinds. You just sharpen one side and either do a really shallow angle on the other side or you can just take a stone and knock off the burr freehand. Even a good number of Emerson knives that are V-ground still have a chisel like edge. For those knives, I usually do something like 27° on one edge and 13° on the other.


The Wicked Edge has an optional support that can be used to keep a flexible blade straight. I've never had an issue clamping any kind of knife on the Wicked Edge, even with hammered spines.
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For me a properly sharpened single bevel knife, chisel and plane has a mirror polished 100 % flat back side without any micro bevels. It´s really easy to polish it. Just lay the blade flat on a whetstone or cast iron lapping plate. A hollow on the back side makes sharpening easier. I would use about 15° bevel angle for a protein slicing knife.
 
EngrSorenson said:
I'm sure it depends on how much work you're willing to put into it- I wouldn't be surprised if you could set the angle 2-3 different ways and create an imitation convex, and then strop it to continuously convex.
Seems like a lot of work though.
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I can do that with my Wicked Edge. I call it a Stealth Convex. But I'm not sure how much difference that it would make.
 
Tapio said:
For me a properly sharpened single bevel knife, chisel and plane has a mirror polished 100 % flat back side without any micro bevels. It´s really easy to polish it. Just lay the blade flat on a whetstone or cast iron lapping plate. A hollow on the back side makes sharpening easier. I would use about 15° bevel angle for a protein slicing knife.
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Agreed. Just pointing out that you can still do a chisel edge with an angled system. Just knock off the burr freehand if you have to.
000Robert said:
I can do that with my Wicked Edge. I call it a Stealth Convex. But I'm not sure how much difference that it would make.
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I've tried that before and I've never noticed any real world benefits to a convex edge. I'm sure there is if you did a rope cut test or something similar. But I'm not sure how much the effort is worth it when you can bring back the edge on a sharpening system really quickly.
 
Very interesting thread! Does a fixed angle system sharpened edge perform better than a freehand sharpened one? Or vice versa? Lower BESS scores, or other type of test?
 
d.cutting.edge said:
Very interesting thread! Does a fixed angle system sharpened edge perform better than a freehand sharpened one? Or vice versa? Lower BESS scores, or other type of test?
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Even the best freehand sharpener isn't going to have the consistency of a fixed angle sharpener. That doesn't mean they can't get a really sharp edge.

Here's a good video comparing the various guided systems and a whetstone.

 
tokerblue said:
Even the best freehand sharpener isn't going to have the consistency of a fixed angle sharpener. That doesn't mean they can't get a really sharp edge.

Here's a good video comparing the various guided systems and a whetstone.

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Thanks for the link! I'll definitely give it a watch. I have an Edge Pro Apex, but have been freehand sharpening lately. The Edge Pro produces a very precise bevel for sure, but my freehand edges are my sharpest. But that could just be me. I stop and evaluate my progress, more quickly and more often when working freehand. I'm curious what other people have experienced.
 
d.cutting.edge said:
Thanks for the link! I'll definitely give it a watch. I have an Edge Pro Apex, but have been freehand sharpening lately. The Edge Pro produces a very precise bevel for sure, but my freehand edges are my sharpest. But that could just be me. I stop and evaluate my progress, more quickly and more often when working freehand. I'm curious what other people have experienced.
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Human hands cannot compete against the precision of machines. They just can't. My knives that I freehand sharpened were sharp. But when I bought my Wicked Edge 130 and actually examined my freehand edge bevels under my microscope I was like, "yuk. How in the world is this thing sharp?" Of course, the longer the blade was, the worse the bevels looked.
I would argue that the perfect edge bevels from a machine would outperform freehand bevels and have better edge retention.
 
d.cutting.edge said:
Thanks for the link! I'll definitely give it a watch. I have an Edge Pro Apex, but have been freehand sharpening lately. The Edge Pro produces a very precise bevel for sure, but my freehand edges are my sharpest. But that could just be me. I stop and evaluate my progress, more quickly and more often when working freehand. I'm curious what other people have experienced.
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toker toker The video you linked to was very worth watching. He is using preloaded clips which I've heard should be multiplied by 1.2 to match the BESS certified string media. Not sure if that was mentioned in the video. So a clip reading of 100 would be 120.
 
tokerblue said:
Even the best freehand sharpener isn't going to have the consistency of a fixed angle sharpener. That doesn't mean they can't get a really sharp edge.

Here's a good video comparing the various guided systems and a whetstone.

Click to expand...

d.cutting.edge said:
toker toker The video you linked to was very worth watching. He is using preloaded clips which I've heard should be multiplied by 1.2 to match the BESS certified string media. Not sure if that was mentioned in the video. So a clip reading of 100 would be 120.
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Pretty good result for an inexperienced free hand sharpener using a cheap whetstone. However, most likely stropping is a big factor in that test. A loaded strop eats cheap steel really fast and the measured sharpness is a result of stropping. One could sat that every time the final sharpening in done free hand.

I had to google that preloaded clip because those numbers seemed too good to be true. The manufacturers manual tells that you are correct. “In their unaltered state Test Clips will generate a very reliable 20% deviation (lower and across all measurement ranges) than the BESS Standard. To convert a Test Clip measurement to a BESS measurement simply multiply the test clip result by (1.2).“

 
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Twindog said:
These images are drawn to scale.

The photo on the left is a 15 dps edge done with a Wicked Edge. It's dead on.

The photo on the right is someone freehanding a 15 dps edge. They get one side at 17 degrees and the other side at 13 degrees. And their stone gets a bit off a couple other places. The difference between the distance at the edge shoulder between a 15 and 17 degree edge is just 0.004 inches on a 0.1 inch edge height. Four thousandths of an inch. Not many people can hold a stone to that precision.

The freehand edge is still sharp. Probably cuts as well. But the edge is not symmetrical. One shoulder is a bit higher than the other. The edge starts to get off center. The apex moves up into the blade a bit. Not a lot, but over time, it becomes a problem. And more metal is removed off the freehand edge. I'd expect this difference to be someone who has a lot of muscle/brain memory. A person new to sharpening will be worse that what is shown.

2v2aGiJnvxAWtWs.jpg
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I think you're stating a lot of absolutes that are limited to your experience and idiosyncrasies that aren't necessarily universal.

For instance saying that the bevels will be more uneven with freehand or that freehand always removes more metal.

I would be interested in seeing the data from your testing.
 
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