Another Off Topic Post on the WTC, link to pix.

I have invited a couple or few to come and join this forum and up until now I haven't been a bit sorry for that.
I am sorry now!!!!
I apologize for asking Rust to come here for help as this experience gives me a nasty taste in my mouth and gives thought that I won't be so quick to offer help to another in the future.

I have to wonder if perhaps Rust isn't the offspring of a draft dodger who left the USA for Canada during the Viet Nam war and grew up with a daddy who was for peace at any cost.
One of the "Better be Red than Dead" crowd.
Rust has said, "Insult me, denigrate my values and beliefs, meet me with hostility - I accuse you of mirroring the very thing you purpose to fight. And so long as the aping continues, we will be no more than apes."
And yet Rust comes here insults us and our belief's and yet wants us to not stir the flames and to learn the value of life from what he says.
It's very obvious to me as to whom the ape is.
Had not the countries who believe in and have a modicum of freedom not had the warriors to defend those rights we hold so dear Rust wouldn't be in a position to say the things he is saying to us.
And perhaps Rust wouldn't have been permitted to even survive as one of those who spread terror in the world about 50 years ago in Germany and several other invaded countries once said that anyone less than perfect shouldn't be allowed to waste the air and since Rust has said he is disabled then he would have been in that class of people, And perhaps if Rust was very fortunate the Ape like American Warrior just might have gotten to the concentration camp in time to liberate Rust and care for him as he was one of our own.
I wonder just what side of the fence Rust would be on then.

It has been said by much wiser men than myself that if you trade freedom for security that you will have neither nor deserve either and that's a foundational fact that has always been true, is true now and will always be true.
It's a shame that people like Hanoi Jane and Rust can't understand that and yet still reap the benefits of those who have died and suffered great hardships so that they could enjoy the freedoms they currently have, although we all know that Canada isn't quite as free as the nation below them on the map and that their counterparts in England have even less freedom in that as a home owner will be tried and probably convicted for defending that home from an invader who would cause him great bodily harm or even death.
It's a pitiful thing when a man cannot defend and protect his home and family because his government will treat him as the criminal.

Originally posted by Rust.
Qui, moi?

I have some very strong thoughts about this. The first is that we're using these images to wilfully restoke a dying fire that was better left dead - grieve and move on, no good can come of wallowing in unhappy history. When teenagers do this, they call it "angst".

My second thought is that when we see this scale of destruction, we might decide to learn the value of life from it.
Click to expand...

Rust one of the mistakes you have made in what you said above is in thinking that the fire was dieing.
The fire is alive and well in the hearts of most American people although there will always be those who desent and it's a very wonderful freedom in that they are allowed to do so, even though if the draft should happen to be reinstated I'm certain that you will have the company of others like yourself who would rather be "Red than Dead.
History always has a way of reprating itself.
And seeing this scale of destruction we have relearned the value of life from it in doing our best to preventing it from happening again.
What the terrorists don't or won't understand is that should they succeed in creating another such murderous act of war on the United States it will only strengthen our resolve more fully to bring them to justice no matter what form that takes.
 
...

No, there is one thing that needs be said.

Right up until thirty seconds ago, Yvsa, I respected you.
 
Rust, you are not the only person on here who believes far more strongly than you would guess in non-violence.

Many of us would go to any lengths to prevent violence to the innocent should it come to that.

Many of us would go to any lengths to preempt violence from happening to the innocent should it come to that.

We ask not that you agree with us, but simply acknowlege that others can disagree with you based on knowlege you do not have access to. While we may be wrong, if we should have to stand up for the principles we hold, they will have been made with utmost diligence in full faith and concience.

I am ready to stand to answer before my God for the actions I may have to take. And stand hopefully even if I should have done wrong because I will, I pray, have acted out of love For those I am responsible for.
 
It's almost 2 in the AM so I'm going to be blunt....I'm not naming names but someone around these parts needs to GROW SOME BALLS!!!This person reminds me of a man that would stand and watch another man enter his home and rape his wife and do nothing to stop it because he does not think it would be what he believs in(non violence crap) Well ya know what I mean!!! I'm a patriet and would do anything to protect my family, friend and country. I will never forget what they did to our country and if I had the power I would torture all those Fuc--- Bast---- to death and I'd do it with pleasure!!!:mad: I hope I didn't ruffel anyone's feathers or sound to harsh and please let me know if I'm atta line. It is 2 in the and I'll probibly read this tomorrow and think:eek: ;)
 
One more thing...Yvsa, Wal, Rusty, Uncle Bill, Dave, Rob, and the rest of the posse' I'll always hold you guys at the highest respect for I believe you are all patriets!
Good night all!!:)
 
Rust,
What I'm going to say will not make any diff. I'm violating "one" of my rules,"Never argue with someone who has already made up his mind"! YOU, HAVE NO CONCEPT OF REALITY, IF EVERYONE FELT AS YOU DO IT WOULD BE GREAT but THE WORLD DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!ALLOW ME TO ENLIGHTEN YOU OR MAKE AN ATTEMPT!There are a # of people in this world THAT only understand VIOLENCE, they take kindness for weakness, & will stomp on you EVERYTIME YOU GIVE IN!Me ,I have been & can be violent, you step over the line & use force & you will NOT like the way I play, & WHEN I cut you I feel NOTHING!Yes I am really this way!These people came into my country," murdered" civilians not military & their people danced & cheered, then they said they wanted to kill our children(one boosted he WILL come & kill them in their schools & playgrounds)The smile I showed was NOT nice, by the way YOU feel be VERY glad someone else is Pres. instead of me! NO ,I don't want peace, by the why in case you forgot, these peaceful people are in MY COUNTRY using Antrax!I don't want peace with them, I WANT THEM DEAD,"each & everyone of them"!BY THE WAY I don't need your respect nor do I care if you think I'm an uncaring SOB!JUST SO you KNOW ,YOU CAN TAKE IT & "SHOVE IT"!One more person dislikiking me,HELL take a # & stand in line!
JIM
 
I accuse you of mirroring the very thing you purpose to fight.
Click to expand...

I think you are right on. That is what we usually mean by developing the resolve for war. Wars are won by those who have developed the will, fear, and hate of an enemy to the point where it is inconcievable that they can be allowed to co-exist.

The people who carried out the attacks of September 11th had clearly reached this level of hate. For now, the US is starting to develop its' resolve. It usually takes time to develop the drive (it took more than a year during WWII). But, with every passing atrocity, with every WTC story, and with antrax attack that takes place, people will learn to hate. If and when we go into Afganistan we will do so prepared to fight. When we reach that point we will be ready to kill and to gratify in the death, of every man, woman, and child in Afganistan.

War is absolutely cruel. There is no nice way to have a war; if we try to turn this into a gentle war it will only fester and grow larger and more deadly. If, history is any guide, a vicious war is actually the least costly in human terms. I hope we go in there ready to make it vicious, end it quick, and help the survivors.

n2s
 
Rust,

Much has been said here already, so I only want to ask a few questions.

Why do you always say when referring to America's action against the Taliban that we are acting out of anger and revenge? As far as I can see the U.S. is acting out of a sincere desire to eradicate terrorist training camps, while at the same time defeating a staunch ally of Osama Bin Laden(taliban). I hope that we have the resolve to take the battle to EVERY country that is found to have harbored these men and/or given them aid. I fear that the "diplomacy" that you speak of all to often took the form of cowardice in the U.S. foreign policy of the past, we can only hope those days are over.

I hope that you can see that the main goal of this military attack is to eradicate terrorism.

I also hope you can see that the main goal of angry americans like myself in writing in threads such as this is to try and make folks like yourself realize that in an ideal world we would have the luxury of believing as you do. Its an admirable philosophy, yet one that most of us cannot follow. I also believe that it is offensive coming from a Canadian. If not for being a close ally of the U.S. and resting comfortably and safe under the blanket of our military protection, who knows who would be running your country these days. Would you be speaking German, or Russian etc...?

I also don't understand why critics of this war always site the poor rural farmers that are supposedly having bombs dropped on their barns and familys. Do you really believe the news reports that the Taliban puts out?! Do you honestly think that any of the normal citizens of Afghanistan are hanging around Taliban installations, waiting for the bombs to fall.

Are there many, many refugees created by this? YES. Do they suffer? Yes. Can it be helped. No. But we are trying to minimize it, and to feed and medicate them as much as possible. (unfortunately the Taliban keeps stealing the food for these innocent people)

The taliban has been killing its own innocents for years, and nobody seems to care! We miss a few targets and kill a few people and suddenly we are genocidal?!?! ANY deaths of innocent civilians is horrible and to be avoided at SOME cost. NOT at any cost. Do I think that it is worth the inevitible accidental deaths of a few Afghani civilians to protect the 280 or so MILLION people in this country? Absolutely. Do I think it is something to celebrate? Hell no!

The Taliban was warned, and practically begged to give up Osama and his fellow terrorists and they refused. What would you have us do to a regime that so openly harbors men like him. Can you honestly say that we should alter our foreign policy TO PLEASE HIM?! That we should bend over and say "ok, you showed us the error of our infidel, imperialist ways now what kind of U.S. would be ok with you guys?!"

It seems to me that you sit at your computer and constantly criticize the U.S.'s actions, and the beliefs of the folks on this forum. But you give no practical alternitives, no real advice at all. Just that we are wrong, we are violent and we should be so lucky to be enlightened like yourself.

What is your advice? What should be done with the Taliban? And by the way, how would you feel if you were afraid to let your little 22month old daughter touch a package from her aunt and uncle because it had been through the mail. That every time you bring mail in the house you are exposing your loved ones to a deadly disease? If the airport that you lived 20min from in a town that you shop in all the time was the starting point for Mohammed Atta and his partner? Sit and take 5 deep breaths, and please imagine these things being your reality. Honestly. Please do this. Then ask yourself: how can we sit back and not try put these people out of business as quickly and with as little FURTHER suffering to our country and loved ones?

As far as fanning the flames with new pics of the WTC. You must understand this country and its politicians. As soon as public outrage dwindles, politicians have a nasty habit of taking the easy way out. Reminding the public of this horrible, evil, and genocidal event is a very wise thing to do.

I don't want you to leave the forum. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that your opinions on this subject really upset me. However, you have a right to your opinions.

I just wish you would really think about how many people that you would criticize(and are criticizing) DIED (and will die in Afghanistan and elsewhere) so that you can have those opinions and express them freely.
 
SkagSig wrote:
"It's almost 2 in the AM so I'm going to be blunt....I'm not naming names but someone around these parts needs to GROW SOME BALLS!!!"

If you believe that one who stands against superior numbers of rabid adversaries, having just been stabbed in the back by one he once counted a friend, and who forces himself to do so calmly and reasonably is a coward, your opinion means nothing to me.

Jim,
As to the Anthrax, America is not alone. My sister's fiance's workplace received a suspicious parcel - I'm unclear whether it tested positive. For the rest, some of your perception is inaccurate. The "their people" you refer to were an unpleasant minority, whose antics remind me strongly of the population of a certain American city which has publically delighted in the misfortune of others in the past.

I would agree that by this time, diplomatic relations are such a mucking fess that their primary target is practically unreachable. I'll continue the remainer of this thought later in this post.

N2S,
I'm glad that you, at least, were able to see what I said as something other than some kind of cheap shot. I do not agree that fostering hatred can result in anything beneficial, but your opinion is clearly thought-out, and I respect it.

MauiRob,
I appreciate the civility of your post as well - civility has become a bit of a rare commodity, it seems.

"Why do you always say when referring to America's action against the Taliban that we are acting out of anger and revenge? As far as I can see the U.S. is acting out of a sincere desire to eradicate terrorist training camps, while at the same time defeating a staunch ally of Osama Bin Laden(taliban)."

By this point, I think I'd have to admit that there's been enough cooling time that this revenge can't be considered the primary motivation. I do suspect, however, that a portion of the motive for continued war is that America would come away with egg on their face if they did not follow through to the end, now.

I am morbidly curious to see just what pops up in the wake of the Taliban. Nothing good will come of this, mark my words.

"I hope that you can see that the main goal of this military attack is to eradicate terrorism."

I do not. Do you see what was the first reaction to the bombing of Afghanistan? Terrorism. We, in North America, were in fact told to expect further terrorism as a result of the offensive. Somebody up there has a better understanding of human nature than they're letting on, and I can only guess at their intent in prodding this ant hill.

"If not for being a close ally of the U.S. and resting comfortably and safe under the blanket of our military protection, who knows who would be running your country these days. Would you be speaking German, or Russian etc...?"

I'd point out that despite being a military micro-power, Canadian forces have played major roles in many conflicts, that they involved themselves before America in both World Wars, and that they have been commended for outstanding performance in several legendary battles. I would also point out that our primary defence against invasion has been not our alliance with America, but our alliance with the world.

"Do you honestly think that any of the normal citizens of Afghanistan are hanging around Taliban installations, waiting for the bombs to fall."

I don't think they need to. Look, I'll admit that the 'common guy' argument is possibly not the best one I've used, but there are plenty of reasons that the US should not have mounted such an attack. I state again, terrorists are targets immune to normal methods of warfare, and will be enraged rather than cowed as is the alleged intent of these attacks.

"Are there many, many refugees created by this? YES. Do they suffer? Yes. Can it be helped. No. But we are trying to minimize it, and to feed and medicate them as much as possible. (unfortunately the Taliban keeps stealing the food for these innocent people)"

Do you think they may have bigger fish to fry? I don't support the Taliban, but I don't support disinformation either, and I've heard nothing to the effect that the Taliban has been taking time out of its busy schedule of dying by remote control to take food out of the mouths of the people. That's just a graphic example of why Anarchy doesn't work. That's all.

"The taliban has been killing its own innocents for years, and nobody seems to care! We miss a few targets and kill a few people and suddenly we are genocidal?!?!"

When I keep hearing talk of "Lake Afghanistan", I'd have to say yes.

"Do I think it is something to celebrate? Hell no!"

Well, good.

"The Taliban was warned, and practically begged to give up Osama and his fellow terrorists and they refused."

I'd have refused too, the way they were asked. From a diplomatic standpoint, the President's statement to the Taliban was clearly designed to end in war, not a peacable agreement. When you want something, you finish by saying "please", not "or we'll nuke your ass". The Taliban was left with a choice of appearang cowardly, or going to war. This is the Taliban - you do the math.

"Sit and take 5 deep breaths, and please imagine these things being your reality. Honestly. Please do this. Then ask yourself: how can we sit back and not try put these people out of business as quickly and with as little FURTHER suffering to our country and loved ones?"

These things are not my reality. However, a grave concern for the state of the world is. And again, I point out that the current actions will not stop the suffering, but increase it. My predictions on this have been frighteningly accurate, thus far.

"As far as fanning the flames with new pics of the WTC. You must understand this country and its politicians. As soon as public outrage dwindles, politicians have a nasty habit of taking the easy way out. Reminding the public of this horrible, evil, and genocidal event is a very wise thing to do."

For the politicians. For the people, it is a manipulation, and salt in the healing wound. Always trust a politician to do what is best for them, but never for their constituents.

"I just wish you would really think about how many people that you would criticize(and are criticizing) DIED (and will die in Afghanistan and elsewhere) so that you can have those opinions and express them freely."

These deaths are meaningless. They might have had some significance, but the decisions of our world leaders have dishonoured them. That matters to me considerably more than the notion that somehow, some way, I might not have my own brain to think with if not for all this wonderful, glorious war.
 
Oh yes, and Rusty. I wasn't up to responding, last night.

It's important to me, that there are others who value peace and life. I do respect differing opinions, at least when they are not presented in a derogatory manner, and when they do not directly contradict my own sacred values. I'm not the only one entitled to stand up for their views, and I hope I haven't made a claim to be.

Thanks for the calm and considerate post.
 
I want to thank everybody for generally restrained responses. Freedom of speech and the right to express any opinion is one of the things that makes this country so great and it's important that we remember this and extend that right to any and all. This is the American way and most of us here are Americans.

And I'll exercise that freedom by saying, from where I sit it seems to me that we have only two options: Either give in to the terrorists and let them take control of our country and our lives. Or, maintain our country and our lives by trying to eradicate the terrorists. Not surprising we have elected to pursue the latter option and I am in full agreement.

I've lived in other countries so I have something to compare our own country to and in my opinion it's the greatest country in the world and probably the greatest in the history of the world. I love it and want to preserve it for our grandkids and far beyond that. I hope it endures forever. And, I'm willing to fight and die to promote this. I'm an American and very pleased and happy to be one. I am not willing to give this country and its people away to terrorists or anybody for that matter.

Not everybody shares my views. I see Peaceniks on TV saying that we are barbarians and warmongers (but who do not seem to have any viable options to offer) and I'm not proud to say that it makes me very, very angry but it does. And I think about old slogans like, "love it or leave it." But then I think about that freedom of speech which is so precious and I have to bite my tongue and endure.
 
Rust,
One of the great things about America is you can have any opinion and talk about it as you choose. It's great to do this. What makes me mad is although you have some very good ideas that all of us would agree about you have some that all of us don't like and I believe are wrong. The way you are stating some of these opinion's and ideas sounds like the way many draft dodgers/"peace crowd" talked about similar opinion's and ideas in the past. I don't mean this in harsh terms but the way you sound to me and others it sounds like you do not support or back our great nation. That if you were in charge you would turn your head and look the other way while these monsters disrespect our people and land because it would be the least violent and most peacful way to deal with it. To me this screams coward. Maybe I'm wrong and I misunderstood some of your posts but answer this... All that has recently happend to our country and everything else that is going on would you fight and give your life for our country if it came down to it? If not, what would it take for you to do so? If it is any less then you should not be living in this country(assuming you live in America you do not show location)and living up it's benefits while in a way laughing at the people who died to give them to you!
 
Rust is not an American to the best of my recollection. I believe he is a neighbor to the North. But, my memory has failed before and perhaps it has again.
 
Rust,
YOU do the math, your words, DO A STUDY,1) TALIBAN IS FINANCED TO A "LARGE DEGREE" BY bl2) tHEY CONTROL "by force ,terror, & death,
Afgan. 3)BL SAYS TO Kill all A mericans & Jews 4) He has hit us a # of times & let go by the candy ass we had in office. these are just a few points. Then we lose 5,000 plus PEOPLE & you sit there & want to negotiate & reason with them?? NOT ME!iF THIS IS YOUR true view, WE HHAVE NOTHING FURTHER TO SAY!NO, ON THIS ISSUE,THERE IS NO NEGOTIATION "EVER"!
jim
 
Wow. What a thread! Great pictures, and somber ones also.

I, too, have served in my country's military, but have NEVER lost a night's sleep worrying about the violence that I have visited upon others. There are LOTS of people like me. Too bad. Get over it.

Want world peace? Execute the bad guys, and EVERYONE who supports them. It really is just that simple. Folks can worry about the state of the world all they want, not me. We're doing our part to make the world a better place, and remember who started this nonsense.

The opinions of pacifists and peaceniks just don't matter to me.

PS. This is the internet. It doesn't take guts to type a message, even an unpopular one. It takes guts to put your life on the line, or to join a military, knowing full well that you are giving up many freedoms, and trusting your life to others. To you veterans, and those on active duty, especially John, I salute you!
 
No Bill, you're absolutely correct - I am Canadian.

If it's true that my way of speaking is like the old draft dodgers, then I would question whether they were truly cowards, or people who found the only way they could to stand for their own values. Probably there were both kinds.

I will admit, I do not stand behind America, and I do not stand behind my own government's backing of America in this matter. To me, this isn't about who you back, but what you back.

I do know when to turn away, and I do know when to fight. But I also know that there are many less-polarized approaches, and my ways would usually fall somewhere in there.

And would I fight in defence of my own country? In defence, yes. To invade another nation, I would not - not without significantly stronger reasonable motivation than has been shown here. And in either case, I would be loath to kill someone who really just wants to live another day.

I will and do fight in my own way, for the world which -I- envision. Even if my efforts don't amount to much in the big picture, I am not complacent.
 
Rust,

I appreciate you taking the time to address the questions in my post. However, I don't feel that you really answered some of them.


I asked you to IMAGINE that it was your reality. If you cannot (or at least try your damdest), then you really have no place in this discussion. It may very well become your reality. Canada may find that its friendship with the U.S. is enough to make it a target sooner or later. Of course if enough of your fellow countrymen have opinions such as yours I have no doubt that Canada will gladly sever any ties with us in order to please Osama and avoid any trouble.

I hope that it never becomes your reality, or that of anyone you know(unless of course that package at your sister's workplace is positive, in which case my wishes are wasted). I really mean that BTW. I have no desire to see anyone suffer at the hands of these subhuman monsters that send disease to innoncent people in their mail, and fly planes full of our loved ones into buildings filled with the same.

I don't see how you can say that the deaths of all of OUR(meaning both the U.S. canada and others) war veterans are meaningless! Nothing world leaders can do or have done can make the individual sacrifices of those men meaningless. To say so is inexcusable, and I hope you never say that in the presence of someone who lost their dad, brother, or friend to war. They deserve better.

" Do you see what was the first reaction to the bombing of Afghanistan? Terrorism. We, in North America, were in fact told to expect further terrorism as a result of the offensive. "

How do you know that this was a response to the strikes on Afghanistan? What was the WTC a "reaction" to? How do you (or anyone)know that the anthrax wasn't part of a full scale, pre-planned, multi-staged attack? I believe it was.

When I keep hearing talk of "Lake Afghanistan", I'd have to say yes.

What does "talk" done by the average person have to do with the reality of what is happening? The taliban HAVE been killing untold thousands of their own! Haven't you heard of the soccer stadium that is used for beheadings of those that don't follow Taliban edicts? That a FEW innocent Afghanis are killed to save the lives of Millions of U.S. citizens is regretable, but necessary.

If a man came into my kid's yard and killed her. and then I found out that he was a guest at your house, AND that you knew all along that he was a child murderer, do you think I have an obligation to be NICE to you when I ask you to let me have this man?!?! ARE YOU SERIOUS? And would you be surprised when you refused to turn him over (because I didn't say PLEASE)that I did whatever was necessary to get this man. How can you accuse the U.S. of fighting this war out of "face" and then DEFEND the taliban's refusal to turn over the worst mass murderer of civilians in recent history BECAUSE WE DIDN"T ASK NICELY!? WE SHOULDN"T HAVE TO ASK AT ALL FOR GOD'S SAKE! It is the duty of any civilized people to want someone like Osama bin Laden turned over.

"I am morbidly curious to see just what pops up in the wake of the Taliban. Nothing good will come of this, mark my words."

So, what do you suggest? Let the Taliban continue to harbor a man who threatens the very existence of our country--(and no I am NOT exagerating!), and continues to train and equip terrorists whose sole mission is to kill americans? Surely this is not your advice!


some of your comments are running dangerously close to defending Osama Bin Laden and those like him. You seem to be inferring if not saying directly that the U.S. got what we deserve, that those 5000+ people in the WTC deserved to die because our leaders in the past made poor foreign policy decisions. I know this isn't you intent. But if you re-read your last post, and honestly listen to yourself I think you will see what I mean.
 
Many thanks for valued input, all. My mind fix got set Dec. 7, 1941 and it's not changed much since and I doubt that it ever will. I've changed, a lot of my philosphy has changed, but the mind set remains the same.

Rust is still young, has not been anywhere or done many things that are life changing. He still has time to make adjustments. I've seen Peaceniks become hawks (Sgt. York was one, wasn't he?) and I've seen Hawks become Peaceniks. Strange things happen.
 
Originally posted by Rust
...

No, there is one thing that needs be said.

Right up until thirty seconds ago, Yvsa, I respected you.
Click to expand...

I am delighted to have held the mirror so closely that Rust could see himself as he is.

I am further delighted to not have the respect of Rust and those others of his ilk who would kiss up to the ones who would enslave the likes of Hanoi Jane and themselves without a fight.

Too not have the respect of such people delights me to no end as the lack of said respect puts me among the true patriots of all time who would rather be Dead than Red.
It is a damned shame that the warriors who give such people the freedom of dissent has to fight and sometimes, many times die so that these people have the freedom to do as they do while not giving any honor and actually going so far as to spit on those who have died in their behalf.
Those like Hanoi Jane and those who follow her belief's are totally despicable in my eyes and should have to live under the yokes of those who do not honor freedom.
 
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