Another question this time about oil Quenching

[blackgrub0331]

Does it matter what type of oil you use to do this? I know I've seen guys used mortar oil and I thought I've even heard of people using olive oil. Now is one type of oil better then the other?

Sorry for some many questions I'm trying to get one of my knife heat treated this weekend and this will be the first time I've done it.

 

[docdredd]

Does it matter what type of oil you use to do this? I know I've seen guys used mortar oil and I thought I've even heard of people using olive oil. Now is one type of oil better then the other?

Sorry for some many questions I'm trying to get one of my knife heat treated this weekend and this will be the first time I've done it.

mortar oil? sounds dangeros

 

[Chris Meyer]

Yes, it does matter what type of oil you use. I would suggest using real quenching oil. It's actually designed for quenching steel, and in the long run it's probably cheaper than vegetable oil.

I use Park Metallurgical’s AAA and #50 quenching oils. (There are different oils for different steels.) Unfortunately, Park has developed a reputation for being unfriendly to knifemakers.

Houton International also makes quenching oils. They are apparently eager to do business with knifemakers.

Brownell’s also sells a quenching oil which they call tough-quench. I have used it with good success.

You will find that the topic of quenching oils is a subject for hot debate, so undoubtedly others will suggest various oils for quenching. However, I have never heard anyone claim that real quenching oils don’t work as advertised.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Good steel won't guarantee a good knife.
Good forging and grinding won't either.
A bad quench will guarantee a bad knife! The birth of a good knife (carbon steel) is the 10 seconds between 1500F and 400F.Nothing else matters as much.
Mystery oil is like mystery steel. It may be fine to use if you do the testing and understand the results. The source and specs will have to remain consistent,too. Getting an oil that is made to be a quenchant is the smart thing to do. If you get 5 gallons of Parks AAA now,and 5 gallons in 2008,it will quench the same. The used tranny oil from Joe's garage - well,maybe it will work and maybe it won't. Why risk the most critical element of the knife making process on anything but a reliable product.I would recommend getting a couple of gallons of fast quench and a couple of standard quench. Park's AAA and Parks #50 are two that work.There are many suppliers of good quenchants.
Stacy

 

[IronWolf]

I agree, the quench is critical, don't handicap yourself, especially if you are still learning. Get a good quenchant.

What steel are you using? that will make a difference as to which quenchant you want to get.

Also, there are good polymer quenchants that rival oils, but may take more care to ensure consistancy, as the speed changes with it's ratio to water.

Good luck
Ken Nelson

 

[Dan Pierson]

I use Park Metallurgical’s AAA and #50 quenching oils. (There are different oils for different steels.) Unfortunately, Park has developed a reputation for being unfriendly to knifemakers.

True, but I did manage to get some from one guy there who is willing to sell to us with about a 20 gallon minimum order. You can find his email in a couple of past threads, my name's probably on one of them if that helps you search.

Dan Pierson

 

[blackgrub0331]

The metal I'm using right now is just some stuff I picked up at my local Rual Farm to play with. What I will be using is O1 and 1095 I'm trying to get my hands on some L-6 and W1.

I'm glade I asked about this or I would have tried the veg oil or something like that.

 

[Fox]

The easiest to obtain is probably Brownell's Tough Quench. Go to Brownells.com and you can purchase it there. Read through the posted threads at the top of the forum. In one of the posts is a link to quench speeds. Note that Tough Quench has different speeds at different temperatures. You will still need to experiment for optimum results. There is no easy way to make a great blade. You can make some good knives with most good quenchants. However, to make a great blade you will have to experiment with a number of factors, including quenchant temperature, steel type, steel temperature at quench, etc. There are no shortcuts if you are serious about creating good blades.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Have I ever said how great this forum is . One can tell that there is some serious knifemaking experience here, one can't get away with this sort of no- nonsense common sense even on the forum that I moderate. Houghton may be the place to try since outside of the Park/Heatbath products many of the others (including tough quench, I believe) can be traced back to Houghton.

Blackgrub, there would be so little difference between 1095 and W1 that I doubt I would bother using both, W2 would give a significant change from 1095. If you are still interested in using L6 and O1, I will go to your other thread on steels and give some tips for working them with simpler equipment.

edited to add-
P.S. Congratulations once again, you are going right down my list of steps one could take to move from tinkering to serious knifemaking. You now are wokring with known materials and are looking to treat it with tools designed to do that specific job in a consistant and repeatable manner. Most other sources of knifmaking info would have had you floundering in darkness for years, which takes me back to my opening line as to how much I like this forum

 

[Fox]

Kevin, you are correct, Tough Quench is made by Houghton. I did not mention Houghton since they are a Canadian company and I was uncertain if they have a sufficient presence in the U.S. to simplify purchasing. There are certainly no Houghton distributors in my neck of the woods.

Blackgrub, here is the quenchant speed list. I made this up early this year from industry specification sheets. Dan has it posted in one of the "sticky" threads. Quench times are in seconds. As a side note, I have had consistently excellent results with O1, using Tough Quench at 100 F. The results were not as good when used at 150 F and 200 F. My results lead me to believe that O1 may be best suited for quenchants with speeds slower than 11 seconds.

Kevin, do you happen to have the speeds for any of the Heatbath products? I would love to complete the chart. Heatbath has refused to answer my inquiries on several occasions.

Parks/Heatbath #50 = Unknown
Exxon Fenso 90 = 8.6
Exxon Fenso 150 = 9.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 150 F - 10.0
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex C = 10.5
Shell Voluta H302 = 10.7
Exxon Fenso M200A = 11.0
Parks/Heatbath "AAA" = Unknown
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 200 F - 11.0
Brownell's Tough Quench @ 100 F - 11.5
Parks/Heatbath #400 = Unknown
Shell Voluta H301 = 13.5
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex B = 16.0
Exxon Fenso 250 = 17.2
Chevron/Texaco Quenchtex A = 20.0
Shell Voluta H201 = 28.0
Shell Voluta VH401 = 34

 

[Don Hanson III]

Very GOOD info in this thread guys :thumbup:

 

[son_of_bluegrass]

A lot of folks are knocking veg oil in this thread. And it may not be the best choice today, I don't know. I do know it's what I use and have no problems with it what-so-ever once I learned it works best above about 120 F. When I started I couldn't afford anything else and since I don't have a problem with it I see no reason to change.

"Quench oils" are a very new development in the field. Before they were made (to meet industrial demands) the common blacksmith used whatever oil was available which meant veg oil or animal fat.

I suppose I need to find my asbestos underwear now.

ron

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

No need for asbestos undies (I have a set of asbestos gloves and apron in the shop,sealed in plastic,to remind me of the good old days). The point being made is that when steel was "whatever you could find" the quenchant was"whatever oil was available".Many blacksmiths had very specific formula for their quench tank ingredients,and guarded their secrets.
My favorite answer to "It has worked OK for hundreds of years" is:
Man used sharp stones and pointed sticks for a million years.Then he used copper,then bronze,then iron,then blister steel. Each was thought to be "as good as it can get with the tools available at the time". The improvements in technology are what caused the change in material.
When steel was of very indeterminate alloy content,the quench rule was
Brine = Fast
Water = pretty fast
oil = slower
air = slow
ashes = very slow
That was good enough then,and is still good enough for many blacksmiths.To them there was (and still is to many people) just two types of steel -Hard and Soft.
Now with the alloy content being discussed in hundredths of a percent,with the performance differences being noticeable (look at the difference in L-6 from different sources), the quench is discussed in tenths of seconds cooling time.This allows the steel to be hardened to predictable depths and to a target hardness.
One other advantage to quench oils designed to do the job is that they are more stable.They do not go rancid or break down like vegetable oils and animal fats do.A couple of gallons will last a long time if kept clean and covered (which all oils should be anyway).Quench oil may cost two to three times what veggie oil costs,but lasts ten to twenty times longer.
Stacy

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...Kevin, do you happen to have the speeds for any of the Heatbath products? I would love to complete the chart. Heatbath has refused to answer my inquiries on several occasions...

It is hard to give exact comparisons since I am not sure of the parameters of the other test results you have there and what points the individual manufacturers measured from, but I do have a nickel ball number of 7-9 seconds for Parks #50, and 9-11 seconds for Parks AAA.

The concept of improvised quenchants is similar to the using O1 with just a forge topic. If all you have to compare with is your own uses or references of properties and performance, then it may be safe that everything is working fine, after all if the resulting blade cuts everything you want it to cut it is good enough isn't it? But when you start really dissecting the materials and processes in order to optimize both that is when subtle differences become much larger. Taking Rockwell readings on pieces of predetermined graduated thicknesses after the quench, and metallographic examination of the inside of the quenched part will reveal how much performance is really getting out of the material and the process, add to that the ability for complete repeatability at any time in the future and one can then change the definition of what problems there may be.

Saying that any given quenching medium meets all of your needs and produces blades equally capable of meeting all of your needs and thus works just fine for you with no problems is completely legitimate and accurate within that frame of reference. The only time I get a little testy is when the suggestion is made that there is no difference or nothing to be gained by a well formulated quenchant when coming from that same frame of reference.

Stacy, as I often do, I am in complete agreement with your post. But I would disagree with the notion that good quench oil costs two to three times what substituted materials would. I have done some "shopping" trips to research this concept and have found it to be one of the more faulty and erroneous reasons to resist a good supply of quenchant. If one has a reliable supply of quenching oil, and can buy in amounts that please the supplier, I have seen many of the substitutes cost as much as over twice the price and one still has to worry about the lifespan and stability after that expenditure.

One exception that I would strongly consider is edge quenching. Leaving all that hot metal just above the surface tends to just trash a good quench oil anyhow so perhaps something more disposable would be better for such an application.

 

[blackgrub0331]

How much does a good quenching oil costs? I'v pnly seen a price for the Brownell’s tough-quench at about $40 for a gal. I think I will not need more then a gal so what price I'm I looking at?

 

[Fox]

. . .snip. . .It is hard to give exact comparisons since I am not sure of the parameters of the other test results you have there and what points the individual manufacturers measured from, but I do have a nickel ball number of 7-9 seconds for Parks #50, and 9-11 seconds for Parks AAA. . .snip. . .

Kevin, the numbers in my post are from the GM Quenchometer "nickel ball" test for each of the oils, taken directly from the published specification sheets that I obtained from each of the manufacturers. The only quenchant that gave a speed range at various temperatures, was Tough Quench, which I took directly from the Houghton specification sheets, supplied to me by both Brownell's and Houghton. This begs the question: in the interest of accuracy, do you have the temperature ranges for Parks #50 at the various speeds; ditto for AAA? I was trying to make the chart as accurate as possible based solely on the published data I was able to obtain.

For those interested, there is a very good article here about quenchant oil monitoring, including an excellent description of the GM Quenchometer "nickel ball" test.

 

[Dan Pierson]

How much does a good quenching oil costs? I'v pnly seen a price for the Brownell’s tough-quench at about $40 for a gal. I think I will not need more then a gal so what price I'm I looking at?

About a year to year and a half ago I paid about $220, including shipping,
for 20 gallons of Heatbath oils: half AAA and half #50. The bad news is
that it was basically a minimum order.

 

[David Schott]

I used fast quench from K&G which i found out is a Shell Voluta product. They sell in 5 gallon drums shipped. Ive found it more than fast enough for 10XX steels with hamons.

 

[blackgrub0331]

It looks like the Brownell’s tough-quench might be right one for me. I just order some 1095 and O1 last week. How well does the Brownell’s tough-quench work on the O1?

 

[Fox]

Tough Quench is superb for O1, 5160 and the 10xx series. With O1, I found it works best at 100 F; the same for 5160. For 10xx, use 150 F, since you need the additional cooling speed. Cooling speed is critical with 1095.